News Forum - Hamas agrees to release hostages in Israel-Gaza strip negotiations

[Pinetree]

11 hours ago, oldschooler said:

All Childish Naive Misguided. Islam is ALL Extreme Evil Genocidal Unfree. As are its People.

Inactive Muslims Irrelevant. All Ticking Time Bombs. Waiting for their Mullahs to tell them to Murder Infidels.

Total War ( launched by Hamas) is never Proportional and has no Separation between Military & Civilians.

Israel being Incredibly Restrained with Warnings: Corridors etc. but there can be no Safety Guarantees.
Israel Not using Genocide or Nukes. Staying Legal. War Crimes ALL by Arabs.
Saying  “ both sides” implies an incorrect moral equivalence. Just Don’t Do It. 

Israel have ZERO Responsibility for Enemy Civilians.

Hamas as Gaza Govt. are fully responsible for All Gazans.

Any Civilian Areas used for any Military purpose are legally designated Military. All Gaza Basically.

 

[Lowseasonlover]

20 hours ago, EdwardV said:

I’m not sure that the way the international law is written. I’m pretty sure as soon as Hamas militarizes a building it stops being a civilian structure regardless if civilians are still in it or not???

Article 15 under the Geneva convention 

[Lowseasonlover]

2 hours ago, EdwardV said:

Did they really need an excuse? Iran themselves haven’t met a radical group they weren’t ready to throw money and weapons at in order to attack Israel. Keeping in mind Iran wants these groups wiped out too. As for Iran themselves, they have no intention of attacking Israel and have no love of the Palestinians either. Useful idiots is the correct term I believe. There is downside for sure, but selling the point of inflaming the area isn’t as big a point as it appears from the outside. 

Iran cannot attack Israel or invade, it is too far away, same applies to Israel who could only do it with help from America I think it's about a 1000 miles, even Israel doesn't have re fueling capabilities mid flight, 

With 20% of the American navy parked in the MED, Iran might be having second thoughts, 

[Vigo]

On 11/18/2023 at 3:16 AM, Fanta said:

We do negotiate with terrorists and we have nothing to lose by trying. And it is not about morals, it is about minimising the damage. 

Yes and No. In this case, the damage is done. I am of the belief that  the Israeli Government is only in talks with Hamas because of Israeli public pressure. From what I see, the Israeli news is filled with these stories, and they are like a death by a thousand paper cuts to Netanyahu. Historically, Israel's approach to hostage  events includes a realistic acceptance that if the hostages are not already dead, that some or all will die, even if ransom/extortion demands are satisfied. Therefore, the rescue strategy accepts that some will die in the  process,  with the emphasis on preventing future hostage taking, through a scorched earth strategy.  Usually the strategy works. Sometimes it does not, as the Russians demonstrated in their attempted rescue of 700 hostages at the Moscow theatre in october 2002 after Chechen lslamic militants seized it.  In the rescue operation which relied on narcotics gas, 130 hostages died.

 

(Israeli football)Team captain Eli Dasa was addressing a news conference in Felcsut,Hungary,  (where Israel’s team was to play in a Euro 2024 qualifying match), when he raised the small athletic shoe and displayed it to reporters.  “It is hard to speak at the moment, but I don’t think that any of you can guess what is the story behind this shoe,” Dasa said. “This kid is in Gaza Strip at the moment with seven, seven people from his family.”

 

Stories like this put the pressure on the Israeli government. (And as an aside, you may know him from  his playing for Moscow Dynamo. He is of African origin, one of the many thousands who come from families  rescued from persecution in the region. If only some of the Afro American and white leftist  protestors knew facts like this, that Israeli rescued people of colour, unlike others who have abandoned Black Africans to genocide in the Darfur at the hands of  Arabs.)

On 11/18/2023 at 5:19 AM, Fanta said:

pfft… both sides are biased and spewing out propaganda. Your incessant cheering of a short sighted “solution” is proof of that. 

Hamas has already made the first move by releasing a few hostages and also proposed a deal for further hostages. Israel’s response has been a solid no. Hopefully they will come to an agreement and more hostages can be safely released. 

I don't know if Hamas released them. It has been reported that other Islamic factions (e.g. Islamic Jihad) participated and are also holding some hostages. It is also reported that some hostages are pure economic targets, with crime syndicates holding them for ransom money. There is no political reason to hold the Thais. Nor is there a political reason to hold the reported dozen or so Israeli Arabs.  And this is another unquestioned aspect of this event: The actual number of hostages. Look at the Thai head count. Thai government says 23  https://www.timesofisrael.com/thai-government-said-in-talks-with-iran-for-release-of-23-hostages-in-gaza/   Some media says 25  or 50. Which is it? No one is giving a reliable number. This NYT article refers to 54.    https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/05/world/asia/thailand-hostages-hamas-israel.html

BTW, this is a heartbreaking article, and I doubt the Thais have much sympathy for the Gazans. 

On 11/18/2023 at 6:04 AM, Fanta said:

Yet Russia and Ukraine exchange POW’s quite often. 

I think we can agree that neither Russia nor Ukraine culture holds that the afterlife is better than actual living and that both cultures have a focus on enjoying life. The Gaza culture holds that death is paradise and that nothing is better than being a martyr.

[Lowseasonlover]

The IDF are being pretty smart with the invasion of Gaza, they systematically removing everything to do with Hamas not just it's fighters, they blew up the main bank headquarters, took over Hamas parliament building took photo's with IDF soldiers and flags then blew it up, they have also blown up all the police stations,

Taken over the main port area nothing can be shipped in, I saw in a video huge drilling rig only a matter of time, Gazans will have nothing to go back to, 

[Vigo]

28 minutes ago, Lowseasonlover said:

Article 15 under the Geneva convention 

Where does  the article state that?

ART. 15. — Any Party to the conflict may, either direct or through a neutral State or some humanitarian organization, propose to the adverse Party to establish, in the regions where fighting is taking place, neutralized zones intended to shelter from the effects of war the following persons, without distinction:

a) wounded and sick combatants or non-combatants; 

b) civilian persons who take no part in hostilities, and who, while they reside in the zones, perform no work of a military character.

When the Parties concerned have agreed upon the geographical position, administration, food supply and supervision of the proposed neutralized zone, a written agreement shall be concluded and signed by the representatives of the Parties to the conflict. The agreement shall fix the beginning and the duration of the neutralization of the zone.

There was no agreement between the  two parties that the location was a neutralized zone. There is documentation both prior to and following the IDF occupation of the facility that the location was used for military purposes and the detention of hostages. Military weapons, uniforms, Hamas IT infrastructure, a militarized vehicle, munitions, a tunnel, videos of  Hamas fighters with RPGs using the buildings for cover, and personnel are documented  as present. The WHO was shown the tunnel. The facility lost its protected status when it was used for military purposes.

 

16 minutes ago, Lowseasonlover said:

Iran cannot attack Israel or invade, it is too far away, same applies to Israel who could only do it with help from America I think it's about a 1000 miles, even Israel doesn't have re fueling capabilities mid flight, 

With 20% of the American navy parked in the MED, Iran might be having second thoughts, 

Iran has the capability of launching missiles at Israel. The presence of the US and French navies in the region are a strong message to Iran to behave.  Prior to the Gaza conflict, there was a strong likelihood that Israel with the tacit support of  the KSA and UAE  was close to launching an air mission to neutralize the Iranian nuclear arms capability. The Gaza conflict has scuttled that operation. That may still occur, but without Israeli participation. All it will take is a significant  attack on the USN or bases in Syria. The west is under pressure from the Gulf states to pound Iran's nuclear potential. 

[Boom]

21 minutes ago, Vigo said:

Where does  the article state that?

ART. 15. — Any Party to the conflict may, either direct or through a neutral State or some humanitarian organization, propose to the adverse Party to establish, in the regions where fighting is taking place, neutralized zones intended to shelter from the effects of war the following persons, without distinction:

a) wounded and sick combatants or non-combatants; 

b) civilian persons who take no part in hostilities, and who, while they reside in the zones, perform no work of a military character.

When the Parties concerned have agreed upon the geographical position, administration, food supply and supervision of the proposed neutralized zone, a written agreement shall be concluded and signed by the representatives of the Parties to the conflict. The agreement shall fix the beginning and the duration of the neutralization of the zone.

There was no agreement between the  two parties that the location was a neutralized zone. There is documentation both prior to and following the IDF occupation of the facility that the location was used for military purposes and the detention of hostages. Military weapons, uniforms, Hamas IT infrastructure, a militarized vehicle, munitions, a tunnel, videos of  Hamas fighters with RPGs using the buildings for cover, and personnel are documented  as present. The WHO was shown the tunnel. The facility lost its protected status when it was used for military purposes.

Iran has the capability of launching missiles at Israel. The presence of the US and French navies in the region are a strong message to Iran to behave.  Prior to the Gaza conflict, there was a strong likelihood that Israel with the tacit support of  the KSA and UAE  was close to launching an air mission to neutralize the Iranian nuclear arms capability. The Gaza conflict has scuttled that operation. That may still occur, but without Israeli participation. All it will take is a significant  attack on the USN or bases in Syria. The west is under pressure from the Gulf states to pound Iran's nuclear potential. 

 

Re- Hospitals: Article 19
The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.

 

https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/geneva-convention-relative-protection-civilian-persons-time-war

 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Boom

[Vigo]

30 minutes ago, Lowseasonlover said:

The IDF are being pretty smart with the invasion of Gaza, they systematically removing everything to do with Hamas not just it's fighters, they blew up the main bank headquarters, took over Hamas parliament building took photo's with IDF soldiers and flags then blew it up, they have also blown up all the police stations,

Taken over the main port area nothing can be shipped in, I saw in a video huge drilling rig only a matter of time, Gazans will have nothing to go back to, 

Southern Gaza can be developed. There is lots of room to grow, expand and to grow.  Gaza has a pop density of 5,479/km. Despite claims to the contrary, the place is not crowded. Monaco has a population density of 25,000 /sq. km,  Macau is at 21,465 /sq.km, Singapore at  8,700 /sq.km, Hong Kong is at 6,820/sq.km.  None of these city states has physical resources, but they offer intellectual capacity, economic services and opportunity.

Southern Gaza has the potential to be a tourist destination with world class resorts. It could rival Dubai. This would require the local arabs to do something that they are not used to doing culturally: Work and to take  responsibility for their lives. To date, Gaza has been a welfare state with most citizens  supported by foreign aid. In excess of US$1billion is given to Gaza every year from the UN, Qatar, and western countries. The PLA contributes  US $1.7 billion for salaries and other services. That's a lot of money. Aside from it being siphoned off to make Hamas leaders wealthy it could be used to build world class schools and technology facilities.  Gaza has beautiful beaches, but the Islamic fundamentalists would have to accept foreign women on the beach. Up to the gazans to make a move to development through peace or to continue treating  Gaza as a rocket launching zone.   

[Manu]

4 hours ago, Boom said:

If the world didn't know before then it knows now that the doctors and staff at Al-Shifa hospital were complicit to the Hamas terrorists who used it as a base. The cctv evidence out now of hostages being brought into the hospital on the 7th Oct accompanied by armed terrorists is clear. Doctors social media accounts celebrating the 7th oct attacks have also been exposed.

Here's the latest vid of a deep terrorist tunnel at Shifa hospital. 

Now, you post a video from the IDF about an alleged tunnel and underneath a message on twitter saying that it is not a Hamas tunnel. A little contradictory. By the way, the twitter message saying that it is "not a Hamas tunnel" is from Emanuel Fabian, military correspondant for the news outlet Times of Israel.

[Vigo]

10 minutes ago, Boom said:

Re- Hospitals: Article 19
The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/geneva-convention-relative-protection-civilian-persons-time-war

 Yes, you are referencing Article 19. I believe that it has been demonstrated that the hospital facility was used to commit acts harmful to Israel.  Israel did provide due warning over 3 weeks ago. It repeatedly warned the population to move south and it provided a safe corridor by which they could do so. Some of the population  left. Others  did not. During that time hospitals, mosques and schools were used for military activity. I believe that Israel satisfied the legal requirement. 3 weeks was more than  enough time to leave.

Absolutely incredible that the arabs still deny they used the Al shifa hospital to detain hostages or as a military base. It was known long ago and they still lie.

https://www.arabnews.com/node/2411816/middle-east

[Manu]

4 hours ago, Boom said:

Israeli hostages inside Shifa hospital, surrounded by Hamas armed militants on 7th Oct.

And again: "If the world didn't know before then it knows now that the doctors and staff at Al-Shifa hospital were complicit to the Hamas terrorists who used it as a base. The cctv evidence out now of hostages being brought into the hospital on the 7th Oct accompanied by armed terrorists is clear. "

What evidence??? These 2 hostages, one from Nepal the other from Thailand, were brought to hospital. One of these 2 that we can clearly see in that video is clearly injured - so perhaps for Hamas a dead hostage is not good so where are they supposed to take him if not in hospital? And what are the medical staff supposed to do exactly? Say no, we do not want to treat them? Tell to those armed Hamas guys, go away and they will go? Report this incident? To whom exactly? I thought it was agrreed by all sides here, even the most extremists and racists ones here than Gazans are also hostages, and human shields of Hamas, so what is the medical staff there are supposed to do? Treat the injured regardless of whom they are, that's what they seem to be doing in that video, this video is not in any way any proof of anything if you care to be the slighest objective.

Quote

Doctors social media accounts celebrating the 7th oct attacks have also been exposed.

We take your word for it.

[Boom]

12 minutes ago, Manu said:

And again: "If the world didn't know before then it knows now that the doctors and staff at Al-Shifa hospital were complicit to the Hamas terrorists who used it as a base. The cctv evidence out now of hostages being brought into the hospital on the 7th Oct accompanied by armed terrorists is clear. "

What evidence??? These 2 hostages, one from Nepal the other from Thailand, were brought to hospital. One of these 2 that we can clearly see in that video is clearly injured - so perhaps for Hamas a dead hostage is not good so where are they supposed to take him if not in hospital? And what are the medical staff supposed to do exactly? Say no, we do not want to treat them? Tell to those armed Hamas guys, go away and they will go? Report this incident? To whom exactly? I thought it was agrreed by all sides here, even the most extremists and racists ones here than Gazans are also hostages, and human shields of Hamas, so what is the medical staff there are supposed to do? Treat the injured regardless of whom they are, that's what they seem to be doing in that video, this video is not in any way any proof of anything if you care to be the slighest objective.

We take your word for it.

"We take your word for it."

No need to take my word for it, I provide links, unlike your rants:

International media and the Hamas supporting Doctors of Shifa

https://david-collier.com/doctors-shifa-hospital/

[Manu]

1 hour ago, Boom said:

"We take your word for it."

No need to take my word for it, I provide links, unlike your rants:

International media and the Hamas supporting Doctors of Shifa

https://david-collier.com/doctors-shifa-hospital/

 

I note that there is no answer to the main points of my 2 replies to your videos and twitter messages. Duly noted.

But this... great!

"International media and the Hamas supporting Doctors of Shifa".

Sure. The thing that indeed there is no trace of that claim anywhere in the world apart from your source, is already hugely suspicious. But you would think that it would surely be all over the news in Israel. Did you check? Well there is none whatsoever, I guess the Israeli press must also be supporting doctors of Al Shifa whom are besides Hamas.  For you, a single guy on his blog writes this and that's enough? You do not check if the sources that you find are somehow backed up by other reliable sources? Obviously not.  Well, when you post a video showing a Hamas tunnel and right underneath a message on Twitter from an Israeli military correspondant saying the opposite shows that you do not even check what you post.

Now that Hamas are using the hospital, nobody would be suprised. It is not quite clear yet if you care of being a little objective but this is very much their style and I have little doubt now that it is the case. But when you say and I quote...

"If the world didn't know before then it knows now that the doctors and staff at Al-Shifa hospital were complicit to the Hamas terrorists who used it as a base. The cctv evidence out now of hostages being brought into the hospital on the 7th Oct accompanied by armed terrorists is clear. "

..., that's based on 0 evidence, it is just you and what your mind seems to want. In fact, if you had watched the IDF spokesman being interviewed when that video was showed to the public (did you?), he only talks about "human shields" there, not about "complicit" doctors and staff. Don't you think that it would be somehow mentioned a little if it was the case? Don't you think it would be a brilliant fact supporting their attack on this hospital to the rest of the world?

"UK doctor who worked at Shifa confirms Gaza hospital used for ‘non-medical purposes’

"‘There was a part I wasn’t to go near, and if I did, I’d be in danger of being shot,’ says physician, describing an atmosphere of ‘collective paranoia’ and ‘genuine fear’ of Hamas"

 

“Well, I was welcome everywhere else, and as I say, the doctors and nurses there were very welcoming and very kind, and the hushed tones under which this was said were consistent with all the other hushed tones with which Hamas was discussed. You know, people were genuinely fearful,” the doctor replied.

“I cannot emphasize too much the air of collective paranoia that existed there,” he continued

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/uk-doctor-who-worked-at-shifa-confirms-gaza-hospital-used-for-non-medical-purposes/

So do you believe this uk doctor and this article published in this independant Israeli news outlet which hasn't any political leanings? Not quite the same description as your "complicit", unless we disagree on the meaning of the word.

So I am not sure on what you base your opinion when you write "doctors and staff at Al-Shifa hospital were complicit to the Hamas terrorists " or what is the purpose of it as there is 0 evidence of that at all, only this guy's blog backed up by nobody in Israel nor anyone else around the world.

 

 

[Boom]

20 minutes ago, Manu said:

I note that there is no answer to the main points of my 2 replies to your videos and twitter messages. Duly noted.

But this... great!

"International media and the Hamas supporting Doctors of Shifa".

Sure. The thing that indeed there is no trace of that claim anywhere in the world apart from your source, is already hugely suspicious. But you would think that it would surely be all over the news in Israel. Did you check? Well there is none whatsoever, I guess the Israeli press must also be supporting doctors of Al Shifa whom are besides Hamas.  For you, a single guy on his blog writes this and that's enough? You do not check if the sources that you find are somehow backed up by other reliable sources? Obviously not.  Well, when you post a video showing a Hamas tunnel and right underneath a message on Twitter from an Israeli military correspondant saying the opposite shows that you do not even check what you post.

Now that Hamas are using the hospital, nobody would be suprised. It is not quite clear yet if you care of being a little objective but this is very much their style and I have little doubt now that it is the case. But when you say and I quote...

"If the world didn't know before then it knows now that the doctors and staff at Al-Shifa hospital were complicit to the Hamas terrorists who used it as a base. The cctv evidence out now of hostages being brought into the hospital on the 7th Oct accompanied by armed terrorists is clear. "

..., that's based on 0 evidence, it is just you and what your mind seems to want. In fact, if you had watched the IDF spokesman being interviewed when that video was showed to the public (did you?), he only talks about "human shields" there, not about "complicit" doctors and staff. Don't you think that it would be somehow mentioned a little if it was the case? Don't you think it would be a brilliant fact supporting their attack on this hospital to the rest of the world?

"UK doctor who worked at Shifa confirms Gaza hospital used for ‘non-medical purposes’

"‘There was a part I wasn’t to go near, and if I did, I’d be in danger of being shot,’ says physician, describing an atmosphere of ‘collective paranoia’ and ‘genuine fear’ of Hamas"

“Well, I was welcome everywhere else, and as I say, the doctors and nurses there were very welcoming and very kind, and the hushed tones under which this was said were consistent with all the other hushed tones with which Hamas was discussed. You know, people were genuinely fearful,” the doctor replied.

“I cannot emphasize too much the air of collective paranoia that existed there,” he continued

https://www.timesofisrael.com/uk-doctor-who-worked-at-shifa-confirms-gaza-hospital-used-for-non-medical-purposes/

So do you believe this uk doctor and this article published in this independant Israeli news outlet which hasn't any political leanings? Not quite the same description as your "complicit", unless we disagree on the meaning of the word.

So I am not sure on what you base your opinion when you write "doctors and staff at Al-Shifa hospital were complicit to the Hamas terrorists " or what is the purpose of it as there is 0 evidence of that at all, only this guy's blog backed up by nobody in Israel nor anyone else around the world.

The evidence from that article was the social media posts of the doctors, please pay attention.

Your trying to deny that the doctors didn't know about Hamas using Shifa yet the evidence is there for all to see. In the videos the doctors are actually greeting them when Hamas drag in the hostages....lol. Why did they keep quiet for over 4 weeks about this? Why did the Doctors deny they did not know Hamas was there?

You would not bring hostages to a place you thought could be compromised by enemy intelligence, but to a place you felt absolutely certain you can control. This level of control and operational security is not achieved by operating there "from time to time". It means you know no one will speak, either because they are complicit, or because they're scared for their life.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Boom

[Manu]

4 minutes ago, Boom said:

The evidence from that article was the social media posts of the doctors, please pay attention.

Your trying to deny that the doctors didn't know about Hamas using Shifa yet the evidence is there for all to see. In the videos the doctors are actually greeting them when Hamas drag in the hostages....lol. Why did they keep quiet for over 4 weeks about this? Why did the Doctors deny they did not know Hamas was there?

You would not bring hostages to a place you thought could be compromised by enemy intelligence, but to a place you felt absolutely certain you can control. This level of control and operational security is not achieved by operating there "from time to time". It means you know no one will speak, either because they are complicit, or because they're scared for their life.

"social media posts"??? Pfff... I am lost for words. Nobody else ever, even in Israel nor anywhere around the world are mentioning those social media posts, only you and you friend's blog. But you choose to believe it, fine, nothing I can do about it.

"Your trying to deny that the doctors didn't know about Hamas using Shifa yet the evidence is there for all to see." And another one that answer to posts without reading them...unless it is the same one with another profile? Not only I said the opposite, but to prove my point I posted a quote from this UK doctor who worked there and the link to the article published by Times of Israel. What does he say? "Everybody knew something was going on in some areas of the hospital, you would be shot if you were going near these areas, everyone was fearful and here was in the air a collective paranoia". Did you read this at all? So why would I post this if I "deny" that the doctors knew? They knew. But it is not quite the same being "fearful" like this doctor and others are saying than "complicit" like only you and your guy's block are saying and nobody else.

"Why did they keep quiet for over 4 weeks about this? Why did the Doctors deny they did not know Hamas was there?" Maybe cause they would not enjoy very much being shot for it by Hamas? What do you thing it would happen to them if they dare saying anything else than what they are told to say by Hamas? Never crossed your mind? (well it does according somehow then according to the last sentence of your post - see below)

"In the videos the doctors are actually greeting them when Hamas drag in the hostages." How do YOU see that? How is it I am not. How is it that the IDF spokesman who showed that video to the public is not? How is it that no Israeli media are not? Nor any other major news outlet worldwide??

Do you see any single word in the following article going towards your perception of that video in this long detailled article reporting it? If like you and only you see some cheering there, nobody would see so then mention it at all?? https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-hostage-was-killed-in-shifa-clip-shows-hamas-take-2-more-hostages-there-on-oct-7/

"It means you know no one will speak, either because they are complicit, or because they're scared for their life." So you start answering to my last post saying I am dening whatever although I said the opposite with sources to prove my points, all this to come that final sentence, which was my entire point:  "or because they're scared for their life." Yes, all sources are backing up this scenario, including the source I provided which you obviously did not read, and nothing apart from your guy's block is backing up what you said, "complicit". That is all I have been saying in my previous post.

[Boom]

3 minutes ago, Manu said:

"social media posts"??? Pfff... I am lost for words. Nobody else ever, even in Israel nor anywhere around the world are mentioning those social media posts, only you and you friend's blog. But you choose to believe it, fine, nothing I can do about it.

"Your trying to deny that the doctors didn't know about Hamas using Shifa yet the evidence is there for all to see." And another one that answer to posts without reading them...unless it is the same one with another profile? Not only I said the opposite, but to prove my point I posted a quote from this UK doctor who worked there and the link to the article published by Times of Israel. What does he say? "Everybody knew something was going on in some areas of the hospital, you would be shot if you were going near these areas, everyone was fearful and here was in the air a collective paranoia". Did you read this at all? So why would I post this if I "deny" that the doctors knew? They knew. But it is not quite the same being "fearful" like this doctor and others are saying than "complicit" like only you and your guy's block are saying and nobody else.

"Why did they keep quiet for over 4 weeks about this? Why did the Doctors deny they did not know Hamas was there?" Maybe cause they would not enjoy very much being shot for it by Hamas? What do you thing it would happen to them if they dare saying anything else than what they are told to say by Hamas? Never crossed your mind? (well it does according somehow then according to the last sentence of your post - see below)

"In the videos the doctors are actually greeting them when Hamas drag in the hostages." How do YOU see that? How is it I am not. How is it that the IDF spokesman who showed that video to the public is not? How is it that no Israeli media are not? Nor any other major news outlet worldwide??

Do you see any single word in the following article going towards your perception of that video in this long detailled article reporting it? If like you and only you see some cheering there, nobody would see so then mention it at all?? https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-hostage-was-killed-in-shifa-clip-shows-hamas-take-2-more-hostages-there-on-oct-7/

"It means you know no one will speak, either because they are complicit, or because they're scared for their life." So you start answering to my last post saying I am dening whatever although I said the opposite with sources to prove my points, all this to come that final sentence, which was my entire point:  "or because they're scared for their life." Yes, all sources are backing up this scenario, including the source I provided which you obviously did not read, and nothing apart from your guy's block is backing up what you said, "complicit". That is all I have been saying in my previous post.

I'm amused by your denial of all the social media posts by the medical staff......

A lot of word salad for what are very simple conclusions, either the medical staff were complicit or they were too scared to say anything, either way they new and kept it hidden. Even Amnesty International knew that Hamas used Shifa before!: 

"The fact that absolutely no one at the #Shifa Hospital spoke about the presence of hostages inside the hospital during the past month and a half, I think is clear evidence, that #Hamas has a more permanent presence there. You would not bring hostages to a place you though could be compromised by enemy intelligence, but to a place you felt absolutely certain you can control. This level of control and operational security is not achieved by operating there "from time to time". It means you know no one will speak, either because they are complicit, or because they're scared for their life."

https://twitter.com/michaelh992/status/1726328591955149032

 

[oldschooler]

5 hours ago, Lowseasonlover said:

Iran cannot attack Israel or invade, it is too far away, same applies to Israel who could only do it with help from America I think it's about a 1000 miles, even Israel doesn't have re fueling capabilities mid flight, 

With 20% of the American navy parked in the MED, Iran might be having second thoughts, 

Israel always finds a way. Desert Plane Refueling. Submarines. 
Disguised Oil Tanker chock full of Cruise Missiles. Oh and Nukes….

[KhaoYai]

I suppose I have to put this disclaimer before I post - otherwise the 'selective readers' here will one again accuse me of taking sides.

I support neither Hamas nor Israel, I do support peace and I support the right of all people to live in peace without fear.

Both sides in this conflict are constantly making claims - which are then denied by the other.

Israel for example, claims that hospitals, in particular Al Shifa are being used by Hamas and that the tunnels under Al Shifa contain Hamas's headquarters and command centre - that has been their justification for attacking the hospital.  Although they have provided some evidence of weapons and one tunnel (yet to be independently verified), I've seen nothing yet that confirms their claims.

On the other hand Hamas have constantly denied using Al Shifa and doctors there have made statements on the BBC News channel that Hamas has no involvement with the hospital. The video footage released last night clearly shows hostages being taken into the hospital.  Although no evidence of previous Hamas involvement at the hospital has been provided yet, the video footage brings the testimony of the doctors into question.

Both sides are without doubt trying to project their own justifications and at some time in the future, maybe some of the truth will come out.  However, what cannot be denied is that whilst all this goes on, civillians are being killed and injured. It has to stop!

Those of you that are claiming Israel's intentions are to take over Gaza and that it will never be handed back to the Palestinians should maybe consider one thing - Israel does not have a free hand to do as they wish.  The US has massive sway over what Israel does and has so far been fairly tolerant of Israel's actions (think US election coming up and a large Jewish population in the US).  However, Biden has been quite clear that Israel must not take over Gaza and must hand it back when their operation is over.

Israel is the largest military power in the region but that power is wholly dependent on US support.  Whilst the US has long been Israel's 'provider', it also has to consider how it is seen by its other allies. The 'slant' of the talk coming out of the US is already changing and it is clearly finding it difficult to continue the level of support it currently provides - that is 100% down to Israel's actions. 

There is a huge difference between defence and revenge and the US has been clear, they will not support revenge. The continued 'spat' between Israel and the UN is clearly having an effect on the US's position. Support for Israel by Eurpoean countries is also waining - the country has historically refused demands by both the EU and the UN to stop creating new 'settlements' in the West Bank and to hand back those already taken.

Israel may well be forced into whatever settlement comes out at the end of this conflict and that could include compliance with the EU and UN's demands.  There is also a growing Israeli contingent that blames Netanyahu's 'land grab' policies for bringing about the current situation.

Netanyahu is unlikely to come through this conflict intact and his heavily right wing movement no longer has the people's support. There is a very good chance that the maps will be redrawn when this conflict ends in an attempt to bring about a permanent peace. The surrounding oil producing states will this time, demand a major stake in the outcome and others, who rely on that oil will have to listen. I very much doubt 'The West' will be allowed to control the 'carve up' this time.

Israel might not be quite the winner Netanyahu imagines.

Edited November 20, 2023 by KhaoYai

[Pinetree]

8 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I support neither Hamas nor Israel, I do support peace and I support the right of all people to live in peace without fear.

So in effect,  by stating that, you support terrorism against a Nation State, stating some kind of equivalence that does not exist. What kind of peace does that produce? Its wooly thinking like yours that prolongs conflicts and unfortunately, many politicians are equally illogical in their thinking and in their silly statements.  We see this every day in that other center of  idiocy, the UN.    

[KhaoYai]

On 11/19/2023 at 9:14 AM, Manu said:

Not by everyone. Only extremists. And it is not really so much towards Palestinians, more the arabs or muslims or both, some do not seem to know the difference, the same people have the same hated comments on other subjects related to arabs / muslims too, post after post. Most do not have much knowledges on the subject either, I suspect they did a little bit of reading since Oct.7. Of course, none of them have never been to Israel, never mind to Palestine. Yes, pure hate, that is all it is. And on an anonymous online forum, well, you know, fill the gaps with the words of your choice...

Agreed.

Yet the moderators allow this to continue?  I have no problem in stating that I have reported some of the 'hate' and 'racist' posts and posted a complaint but still they remain intact. 

I don't know what jurisdiction this site falls under but I can confidently state that if it fell under the UK's, the authorities would be seeking to prosecute the offenders for clear racism and hate speech.

[BigHewer]

6 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Agreed.

Yet the moderators allow this to continue?  I have no problem in stating that I have reported some of the 'hate' and 'racist' posts and posted a complaint but still they remain intact. 

I don't know what jurisdiction this site falls under but I can confidently state that if it fell under the UK's, the authorities would be seeking to prosecute the offenders for clear racism and hate speech.

Correct. Some posts have been removed but the vast majority remain intact in the interest of maintaining free discourse.

Posts that are blatantly off topic, threatening or personally insulting are not allowed, but diverse opinions are not only permitted, they are welcome.

If you don't like it, rebut it.

Moderator

[Fanta]

6 hours ago, Vigo said:

Southern Gaza has the potential to be a tourist destination with world class resorts. It could rival Dubai. This would require the local arabs to do something that they are not used to doing culturally: Work and to take  responsibility for their lives.

Turn an internment camp into a tourist resort and if it doesn’t work it is the Palestinians fault - talk about setting someone up to fail. The actual goal behind that unrealistic proposal is to eject the Palestinians from Gaza.
Q: If you take all Hamas out of Gaza what do you have? A: the West Bank.

[KhaoYai]

10 minutes ago, Pinetree said:

So in effect,  by stating that, you support terrorism against a Nation State, stating some kind of equivalence that does not exist. What kind of peace does that produce? Its wooly thinking like yours that prolongs conflicts and unfortunately, many politicians are equally illogical in their thinking and in their silly statements.  We see this every day in that other center of  idiocy, the UN.    

Completely untrue.  The thing that has prolonged this conflict has been the refusal of both sides to regognise the other.  That and the failure of that 'wet blanket', talking shop the UN to do anything other than issue worthless 'resolutions'.

None of Israel's previous and current actions could have taken place without the support of the US and its huge Jewish so clearly biased population.

Both sides of this historical conflict needed their 'heads banging together' a long time back.  Israel exists and Palestine has a right to exist.  The carve up of the middle east, in particular the creation of Israel was the result of a UK policy that was then handed to the UN to put in place. Little thought was ever given to the Palestinians - hence the grounding of the current problems. Without the inclusion of both sides, there never could have been peace.

You may wish to consider this - and I am not saying this is right, I'm just proposing that it is how it is..........a child, growing up in Palestine will have seen nothing but conflict. That child will have been told by its parents that Israel is to blame for all their woes.  The child grows up to find they are treated as a second class citizen, they have few rights, their movements are controlled and their land is constanly being grabbed - were their parents right?  That child, now adult may consider a normal route of protest to try and improve their lot but finds that they can do nothing.  They either put up or shut up.  When that child then decides to take stronger action and make formal protests - they find that they still can do nothing.

So, living in a state of constant repression, the young adult listens to those who promote violence and link it to totally innacurate claims that it is a religious conflict.  Those voices promote violence as a way to deal with the situation.  Violence begets violence and so the escalation begins.

Would you be prepared to live in a state of constant repression or would you rise up against it?

The UN, the UK and the West in general are to blame for where we are now.  No thought was even given to the people who lived in Israel before it was created.

I believe that the land or a similar amount was in fact 'Israel' over 800 years ago but that land was lost and the population displaced.  Are we to go back in history and re-draw every map created out of conflict or do we learn to live together?

I currently live most of the year in a small village in the UK.  I have no idea of the religion of my neighbours and nor do I care.  I have no religion but I don't see myself as different to others, I am a human being first and foremost.  People of differing types can live side by side, there is absolutely no reason why not.  Problems begin when something is imposed upon another.  If my neighbour for example, tried to steal part of my garden, I would take action.

Divisions between people's, nations and religions have been largely 'created' historically - created for the benefit and greed of those who consider themselves to be the 'elite' or have something else to gain that they feel is 'justified'.

I mentioned earlier that the basis of this conflict came about though a UK policy which was then passed to the UN.  I suggest you look at the history of the original UK proposal and why the UK was offering the Jews their own land (well before 1948 or even 1939). I can assure you that it had little to do with concern for the Jewish people and everything to do with greed.

Like much of what my country has done in the past - what they have left behind is conflict.

[KhaoYai]

19 hours ago, oldschooler said:

All Childish Naive Misguided. Islam is ALL Extreme Evil Genocidal Unfree. As are its People.

This is not racist?

[Pinetree]

20 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Completely untrue.  The thing that has prolonged this conflict has been the refusal of both sides to regognise the other.  That and the failure of that 'wet blanket', talking shop the UN to do anything other than issue worthless 'resolutions'.

None of Israel's previous and current actions could have taken place without the support of the US and its huge Jewish so clearly biased population.

Both sides of this historical conflict needed their 'heads banging together' a long time back.  Israel exists and Palestine has a right to exist.  The carve up of the middle east, in particular the creation of Israel was the result of a UK policy that was then handed to the UN to put in place. Little thought was ever given to the Palestinians - hence the grounding of the current problems. Without the inclusion of both sides, there never could have been peace.

You may wish to consider this - and I am not saying this is right, I'm just proposing that it is how it is..........a child, growing up in Palestine will have seen nothing but conflict. That child will have been told by its parents that Israel is to blame for all their woes.  The child grows up to find they are treated as a second class citizen, they have few rights, their movements are controlled and their land is constanly being grabbed - were their parents right?  That child, now adult may consider a normal route of protest to try and improve their lot but finds that they can do nothing.  They either put up or shut up.  When that child then decides to take stronger action and make formal protests - they find that they still can do nothing.

So, living in a state of constant repression, the young adult listens to those who promote violence and link it to totally innacurate claims that it is a religious conflict.  Those voices promote violence as a way to deal with the situation.  Violence begets violence and so the escalation begins.

Would you be prepared to live in a state of constant repression or would you rise up against it?

The UN, the UK and the West in general are to blame for where we are now.  No thought was even given to the people who lived in Israel before it was created.

I believe that the land or a similar amount was in fact 'Israel' over 800 years ago but that land was lost and the population displaced.  Are we to go back in history and re-draw every map created out of conflict or do we learn to live together?

I currently live most of the year in a small village in the UK.  I have no idea of the religion of my neighbours and nor do I care.  I have no religion but I don't see myself as different to others, I am a human being first and foremost.  People of differing types can live side by side, there is absolutely no reason why not.  Problems begin when something is imposed upon another.  If my neighbour for example, tried to steal part of my garden, I would take action.

Divisions between people's, nations and religions have been largely 'created' historically - created for the benefit and greed of those who consider themselves to be the 'elite' or have something else to gain that they feel is 'justified'.

I mentioned earlier that the basis of this conflict came about though a UK policy which was then passed to the UN.  I suggest you look at the history of the original UK proposal and why the UK was offering the Jews their own land (well before 1948 or even 1939). I can assure you that it had little to do with concern for the Jewish people and everything to do with greed.

Like much of what my country has done in the past - what they have left behind is conflict.

Your ignorance is Biblical mate.