News Forum - Thailand anticipates American tourism influx due to Songkran

[ThaiFoodGuy]

1 hour ago, Marc26 said:

But what you provided doesn't refute what @cowslip is saying 

Do I have to refute that humans have to eat to survive for it to be factual? I'm refuting that the US did not found the sex tourism industry. That is a fact. All I've been countered with thus far is Mr. Cowslip's personal opinion that the US did found the Thailand sex tourism industry, which he feels strongly about, but also feels like saying "no you're wrong" makes factual reality unfactual and therefore incorrect. Which is hilarious.

One could conclude, with the factual truth that visitors to Thailand (ie - tourists) have availed themselves of the prostitutes already long established in Thailand long before Americans ever showed up (ie - sex tourism), that Americans did not, in fact, found the sex tourism industry. I have agreed already that they're arguably responsible for its growth during the Vietnam War and its current iteration is due largely to that stimulus, but the argument is that the US founded the industry, which is absolutely ridiculous and Cowslip simply insisting he's right is a hilarious display of pompous arrogance.

This is great 

[PhuketBloke]

1 hour ago, cowslip said:

you think that is the same as a tourist sex industry?

I see, so it becomes a tourist sex industry set up by American troops going to Thailand on R and R, but if I say the Japanese soldiers did the same thing then that is not setting up a sex tourist industry, can you explain why?

Only the Americans can set such a thing up?

The Japanese held a lot of countries during the 2nd WW, but they did not go on R and R to Thailand in your eyes.

 

Edited March 23 by PhuketBloke
typo

[PhuketBloke]

35 minutes ago, ThaiFoodGuy said:

Do I have to refute that humans have to eat to survive for it to be factual? I'm refuting that the US did not found the sex tourism industry. That is a fact. All I've been countered with thus far is Mr. Cowslip's personal opinion that the US did found the Thailand sex tourism industry, which he feels strongly about, but also feels like saying "no you're wrong" makes factual reality unfactual and therefore incorrect. Which is hilarious.

One could conclude, with the factual truth that visitors to Thailand (ie - tourists) have availed themselves of the prostitutes already long established in Thailand long before Americans ever showed up (ie - sex tourism), that Americans did not, in fact, found the sex tourism industry. I have agreed already that they're arguably responsible for its growth during the Vietnam War and its current iteration is due largely to that stimulus, but the argument is that the US founded the industry, which is absolutely ridiculous and Cowslip simply insisting he's right is a hilarious display of pompous arrogance.

This is great 

All true as far as I can see.

I am wondering what Cowspip's magic number is for it to be called a tourist sex industry, if one tourist goes to Thailand with his mates for sex is it then an industry or can it only be called that after a certain number of American soldiers have visited the country for sex?

Edited March 23 by PhuketBloke
typo

[PhuketBloke]

12 minutes ago, PhuketBloke said:

All true as far as I can see.

I am wondering what Cowspip's magic number is for it to be called a tourist sex industry, if one tourist goes to Thailand with his mates for sex is it then an industry or can it only be called that after a certain number of American soldiers have visited the country for sex?

OOps sorry the autocorrect changed your name from Cowslip's to Cowspip's

[cowslip]

28 minutes ago, PhuketBloke said:

I see, so it becomes a tourist sex industry set up by American troops going to Thailand on R and R, but if I say the Japanese soldiers did the same thing then that is not setting up a sex tourist industry, can you explain why?

Only the Americans can set such a thing up?

The Japanese held a lot of countries during the 2nd WW, but they did not go on R and R to Thailand in your eyes.

do you think that the industry under the occupying Japanese army looked even remotely the same as after Pattaya?

[PhuketBloke]

13 minutes ago, cowslip said:

do you think that the industry under the occupying Japanese army looked even remotely the same as after Pattaya?

Do you think the Americans set up all the sex tourist venues worldwide?

[Vigo]

49 minutes ago, PhuketBloke said:

I see, so it becomes a tourist sex industry set up by American troops going to Thailand on R and R, but if I say the Japanese soldiers did the same thing then that is not setting up a sex tourist industry, can you explain why?

Only the Americans can set such a thing up?

The Japanese held a lot of countries during the 2nd WW, but they did not go on R and R to Thailand in your eyes.

Japanese occupiers forced people into the sex trade., e.g. comfort women/girls.  The Vietnam era did not have foreign military force women into the sex trade,. They exploited the poverty, but did not have an organized forced sexual slavey as per the Japanese military.

[Marc26]

1 hour ago, PhuketBloke said:

Did the Americans also invent the sex tourist industry in Amsterdam as well?

What about the sex tourism industry in London did the Americans set that up as well? 

Thailand has been trading with other countries for centuries, I am sure the sailors had something to do with setting up a sex tourist industry, Thailand is also not an island, there are adjoining countries as well.

I am sure the Americans on R and R in the Vietnam War boosted the numbers but to have founded it which was originally claimed can not be true. 

I just don't get how you guys don't understand what  @cowslip is saying

 

Yes, he acknowledged that prostitution existed and that Japanese soldiers went to brothels and other places

 

And I have said I do think there was an industry of sex tourism before the 60-70's

However form it may have been

But the modern sex tourism industry that we all know

 

That was born from the American GI's coming over for R&R

 

It popularized it

I guess you can say it glamorized it, people saw it in movies

And it did prompt men to then choose Thailand as a destination for sex, hence "sex tourism "

 

 

[Marc26]

The Sex Tourist Industry 

 

I think we can all agree that Soi Cowboy, Nana Plaza, Patpong and Pattaya are the 4 main areas of the sex tourism industry????

 

Soi Cowboy 

Started in 1970 by an American 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soi_Cowboy

 

 

Patpong was a notorious hangout for CIA, Airmen and GI's

Go go Madrid Bar, famous bar for CIA

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patpong

Nana Plaza started in late 70's after the other ones opened 

 

Pattaya grew solely because of the American GI's R&R

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattaya

[Marc26]

1 hour ago, ThaiFoodGuy said:

Do I have to refute that humans have to eat to survive for it to be factual? I'm refuting that the US did not found the sex tourism industry. That is a fact. All I've been countered with thus far is Mr. Cowslip's personal opinion that the US did found the Thailand sex tourism industry, which he feels strongly about, but also feels like saying "no you're wrong" makes factual reality unfactual and therefore incorrect. Which is hilarious.

One could conclude, with the factual truth that visitors to Thailand (ie - tourists) have availed themselves of the prostitutes already long established in Thailand long before Americans ever showed up (ie - sex tourism), that Americans did not, in fact, found the sex tourism industry. I have agreed already that they're arguably responsible for its growth during the Vietnam War and its current iteration is due largely to that stimulus, but the argument is that the US founded the industry, which is absolutely ridiculous and Cowslip simply insisting he's right is a hilarious display of pompous arrogance.

This is great 

Visitors participating in prostitution while on business or military does not make it "tourism " and that has what @cowslip has been saying all along

 

He's making that distinction 

 

Just like their is adventure tourism, or diving tourism or safari tourism, there is sex tourism

 

People on going on holiday for those exact reasons 

 

And there isn't that much evidence that people went to Thailand for sex tourism before the 60 and 70's and the American popularizing it with their R&R

 

As I said above

I think it's an interesting debate and I will do some research but the little I've done I can't seem to find much on info on it before the 60 and 70's

 

 

By the way

There isn't a log on it

But I would bet to say the vast majority of bars owned by foreigners and not Thais that catered to sex tourism in the boom of the 70's were owned or run by Americans 

 

Just go back and read stories on Patpong, Washington Square and Soi Cowboy and so many bars were started by Americans 

[PhuketBloke]

33 minutes ago, Vigo said:

Japanese occupiers forced people into the sex trade., e.g. comfort women/girls.  The Vietnam era did not have foreign military force women into the sex trade,. They exploited the poverty, but did not have an organized forced sexual slavey as per the Japanese military.

So you are telling me there was no prostitution in Thailand before the Japanese arrived, funny that is it has existed in every other country in the world for thousands of years.

[PhuketBloke]

15 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

I just don't get how you guys don't understand what  @cowslip is saying

Yes, he acknowledged that prostitution existed and that Japanese soldiers went to brothels and other places

And I have said I do think there was an industry of sex tourism before the 60-70's

However form it may have been

But the modern sex tourism industry that we all know

That was born from the American GI's coming over for R&R

It popularized it

I guess you can say it glamorized it, people saw it in movies

And it did prompt men to then choose Thailand as a destination for sex, hence "sex tourism "

As far as I can see @cowslip is saying the Americans created it, we disagree, they might have extended it by sheer numbers and made it a more viable market but they did not create it, that is the only point I think those of us on this side of the fence believe especially @ThaiFoodGuy if I read him correctly. 

[PhuketBloke]

5 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

Visitors participating in prostitution while on business or military does not make it "tourism " and that has what @cowslip has been saying all along

Just like their is adventure tourism, or diving tourism or safari tourism, there is sex tourism

People on going on holiday for those exact reasons 

And there isn't that much evidence that people went to Thailand for sex tourism before the 60 and 70's and the American popularizing it with their R&R

As I said above

I think it's an interesting debate and I will do some research but the little I've done I can't seem to find much on info on it before the 60 and 70's

Just out of interest.

I went to Patong on my honeymoon in 1987.

There were maybe three or four hotels I could see.

There was one bar near the beach, there was bugger all to do so we went back to Bangkok after three nights as it was so boring.

We missed all the restaurants in Bangkok, In those days it was much easier to travel around Bangkok.

Erm yes, honeymoon I said, we had been living together for three years prior to getting married so it was basically a holiday. 

[Marc26]

4 minutes ago, PhuketBloke said:

As far as I can see @cowslip is saying the Americans created it, we disagree, they might have extended it by sheer numbers and made it a more viable market but they did not create it, that is the only point I think those of us on this side of the fence believe especially @ThaiFoodGuy if I read him correctly. 

Yes I have said I think he is likely incorrect in that America founded it

 

But like I said above 

He has been making the distinction between toursim and prostitution 

 

Pointing out that there was prostitution before is irrelevant in what @cowslip has been stating

 

He's been talking about sex tourism and in general, and there is a very good argument that Americans are the main reason for most of the areas and infrastructure that we know these days that make up the Thai sex tourism industry 

[PhuketBloke]

14 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

Visitors participating in prostitution while on business or military does not make it "tourism " and that has what @cowslip has been saying all along

He's making that distinction 

Just like their is adventure tourism, or diving tourism or safari tourism, there is sex tourism

People on going on holiday for those exact reasons 

And there isn't that much evidence that people went to Thailand for sex tourism before the 60 and 70's and the American popularizing it with their R&R

As I said above

I think it's an interesting debate and I will do some research but the little I've done I can't seem to find much on info on it before the 60 and 70's

By the way

There isn't a log on it

But I would bet to say the vast majority of bars owned by foreigners and not Thais that catered to sex tourism in the boom of the 70's were owned or run by Americans 

Just go back and read stories on Patpong, Washington Square and Soi Cowboy and so many bars were started by Americans 

You said, "Visitors participating in prostitution while on business or military does not make it "tourism " ......"

It does if that military person is in another country and has a two weeks pass and decides to be a tourist in Thailand for a couple of weeks, it makes them a sex tourist just like the rest of the sex tourists if they have decided to go there for sex. 

[TedG]

1 hour ago, cowslip said:

do you think that the industry under the occupying Japanese army looked even remotely the same as after Pattaya?

You should be grateful to the US for allowing you to finally get laid. 

[Marc26]

6 hours ago, TedG said:

You should be grateful to the US for allowing you to finally get laid. 

Haha

Best post of the whole debate 5555

[TSS]

13 hours ago, PhuketBloke said:

At least he did not buy one of them a house, and a car, or have to look after the sick buffalo,

  Also correct- Mr. Polo was known to hit it and quit it

[Vigo]

11 hours ago, PhuketBloke said:

So you are telling me there was no prostitution in Thailand before the Japanese arrived, funny that is it has existed in every other country in the world for thousands of years.

I did not deny the existence of prostitution.  Prostitution existed, but in a social strata format. The elites had concubines  who had social position and there were the social houses for the merchant class and other wealthy people. These courtesan type women were relatively well compensated, but occupied a lower caste. And then there were the fallen women found in every village who prostituted as an occupation because they were outcsts without family to support them.. There were social taboos against prostitution.

The arrival of big money  in the 1960's transformed the  prostitution activity. It went from discretion to an industry. The potential income lured the impoverished and fuelled corruption. With the influx of foreigners, all manner of vice exploded, not because they were foreigners, but because of their demographic: Mostly young 18-25, buff, virile, and many naive with kind dispositions. They were a novelty, good looking and had money to spend. they were also prime for the picking by opportunistic entrepreneurs who succumbed to greed and became more evil as time progressed. The  Vietnam war brought in big money and money corrupts. Prostitution and the beer shacks were transformed into an industry.

 

[PhuketBloke]

13 hours ago, Marc26 said:

Yes I have said I think he is likely incorrect in that America founded it

But like I said above 

He has been making the distinction between toursim and prostitution 

Pointing out that there was prostitution before is irrelevant in what @cowslip has been stating

He's been talking about sex tourism and in general, and there is a very good argument that Americans are the main reason for most of the areas and infrastructure that we know these days that make up the Thai sex tourism industry 

There is no denying that, the main argument has been who created the tourist sex industry in Thailand in the first place and it was not the Americans.

[PhuketBloke]

15 hours ago, Vigo said:

Japanese occupiers forced people into the sex trade., e.g. comfort women/girls.  The Vietnam era did not have foreign military force women into the sex trade,. They exploited the poverty, but did not have an organized forced sexual slavey as per the Japanese military.

You are telling me there was no prostitution in Thailand before the Japanese military arrived, it must be the only country in the world not to have prostitution at that time. 

The Japanese would have had their R and R in Thailand and travelled from neighboring countries they occupied therefore creating a sex tourist industry if it had not already been set up long before they arrived on the scene. 

You will be telling me next there was no prostitution in Holland, Belgium, and France before the Germans arrived. 

Thailand has been trading with other countries for centuries, sailors, etc did not stop off at chosen countries on the way to use a prostitute, which is also called a sex tourist industry?

Edited March 24 by PhuketBloke
typo

[PhuketBloke]

5 minutes ago, PhuketBloke said:

You are telling me there was no prostitution in Thailand before the Japanese military arrived, it must be the only country in the world not to have prostitution at that time. 

The Japanese would have had their R and R in Thailand and travelled from neighboring countries they occupied therefore creating a sex tourist industry if it had not already been set up long before they arrived on the scene. 

You will be telling me next there was no prostitution in Holland, Belgium, and France before the Germans arrived. 

Thailand has been trading with other countries for centuries, sailors, etc did not stop off at chosen countries on the way to use a prostitute, which is also called a sex tourist industry. 

Plus Thailand was an ally of the Japanese and declared war on the UK and America in 1941, with the aid of the Japanese they took control of the neighboring countries, so the women they had were not comfort girls but paid prostitutes. 

 

[PhuketBloke]

19 hours ago, cowslip said:

THat is a very facile fatuous and facetious  question......You really don't seem to understand anything about my post of even the history of Thailand - 

please explain when you think thr sex tourism industry in Thailand began - you seem to not even understand what tourism is,

Hundreds of years ago, do you think that sex tourism is a modern-day thing?

I think most countries in the world have a sex tourist industry, either hidden or in the open. 

You don't seem to realise the Japanese were allied with Thailand in WW2 and you think Thai women were forced into prostitution, thus sex tourists were about before the Americans got here, do you think the Japanese did not have such a thing as R and R as well as the Americans ah yes and the Germans in Holland, France, etc?

[Marc26]

1 hour ago, PhuketBloke said:

Hundreds of years ago, do you think that sex tourism is a modern-day thing?

I think most countries in the world have a sex tourist industry, either hidden or in the open. 

You don't seem to realise the Japanese were allied with Thailand in WW2 and you think Thai women were forced into prostitution, thus sex tourists were about before the Americans got here, do you think the Japanese did not have such a thing as R and R as well as the Americans ah yes and the Germans in Holland, France, etc?

But again that's not what he is really talking about 

 

As I pointed out before 

If you look at the major venues and areas that we consider make up the sex tourism industry they were all created because of the Vietnam War and American GI's or right after it to accomodate the boom.

 

Soi Cowboy, Patpong and Nana 

That is basically the sex toursim industry in Bangkok, all built in that time....not before it

 

Pattaya, the #1 sex tourism destination in Thailand, built up exclusively because of the American GI's

 

 

It's playing semantics to what he said in the beginning because we all now know what he meant, and he's correct 

[PhuketBloke]

38 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

But again that's not what he is really talking about 

As I pointed out before 

If you look at the major venues and areas that we consider make up the sex tourism industry they were all created because of the Vietnam War and American GI's or right after it to accomodate the boom.

Soi Cowboy, Patpong and Nana 

That is basically the sex toursim industry in Bangkok, all built in that time....not before it

Pattaya, the #1 sex tourism destination in Thailand, built up exclusively because of the American GI's

It's playing semantics to what he said in the beginning because we all now know what he meant, and he's correct 

The fundamental point is the claim the Americans created sex tourism is simply not true, they might have caused it to expand quickly and on a much larger scale due to the large number of troops going there during the war but they did not create it.