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I Am Ashamed of the UK


Pinetree
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I am ashamed, embarrassed, disgusted and angry about the UK,  Reasons:

The Covid mess and the Inquiry evidence

Boris and his bunch of incompetent's, who are still in power

HS2, Heathrow, All UK Airports, BA, the rail system, the horribly inadequate road system, pathetic fast internet coverage, water companies incompetence 

An incompetent Civil Service

A destroyed military.

Inclusion and diversity madness.

A feckless, lazy, WFH obsessed workforce, who want above inflation pay rises to do less work.

A broken banking and insurance industry

A corrupt, incompetent Police Service allowing terrorist sympathizers to hold a rally on Remembrance Day and won't react to burglaries, and do nothing about the  Stop Oil lunatics blocking the Kings Highway. 

 

Thank goodness I am out of the place and I will never go back, not even to visit.   A 'First World Country'?  I think not.  

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4 hours ago, Pinetree said:

I am ashamed, embarrassed, disgusted and angry about the UK,  Reasons:

The Covid mess and the Inquiry evidence

Boris and his bunch of incompetent's, who are still in power

HS2, Heathrow, All UK Airports, BA, the rail system, the horribly inadequate road system, pathetic fast internet coverage, water companies incompetence 

An incompetent Civil Service

A destroyed military.

Inclusion and diversity madness.

A feckless, lazy, WFH obsessed workforce, who want above inflation pay rises to do less work.

A broken banking and insurance industry

A corrupt, incompetent Police Service allowing terrorist sympathizers to hold a rally on Remembrance Day and won't react to burglaries, and do nothing about the  Stop Oil lunatics blocking the Kings Highway. 

Thank goodness I am out of the place and I will never go back, not even to visit.   A 'First World Country'?  I think not.  

The reaction to such things has to be couched reasonably to get majority traction. 

If the opposition response to stupid stuff is even more stupid stuff, like what happened/is happening in the USA, then the opposition becomes precisely what they were protesting about in the first place, or worse. 

The political result are these crazy swings between the two extremes during election cycles.  Eventually, and thankfully, extreme movements wind up turning inward on themselves with escalating purity tests and a circular firing squad.  Worst case, or maybe not depending on your POV, they are offered some fruit flavoured Kool-Aide drinks at no cost. 

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5 hours ago, Pinetree said:

I am ashamed, embarrassed, disgusted and angry about the UK,  Reasons:

The Covid mess and the Inquiry evidence

Boris and his bunch of incompetent's, who are still in power

HS2, Heathrow, All UK Airports, BA, the rail system, the horribly inadequate road system, pathetic fast internet coverage, water companies incompetence 

An incompetent Civil Service

A destroyed military.

Inclusion and diversity madness.

A feckless, lazy, WFH obsessed workforce, who want above inflation pay rises to do less work.

A broken banking and insurance industry

A corrupt, incompetent Police Service allowing terrorist sympathizers to hold a rally on Remembrance Day and won't react to burglaries, and do nothing about the  Stop Oil lunatics blocking the Kings Highway. 

Thank goodness I am out of the place and I will never go back, not even to visit.   A 'First World Country'?  I think not.  

Unfortunately Pinetree you could have written a very similar post going all the way back to the 1960's. 

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16 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Unfortunately Pinetree you could have written a very similar post going all the way back to the 1960's. 

I doubt that it has ever been as bad as it is now.  I was proud to serve my country for 20 odd  years,  as I believed in its values, what it represented to the World and what it meant to be British; no longer. 

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6 hours ago, Pinetree said:

 

A corrupt, incompetent Police Service allowing terrorist sympathizers to hold a rally on Remembrance Day and won't react to burglaries, and do nothing about the  Stop Oil lunatics blocking the Kings Highway. 

Totally unacceptable that The Metropolitan Police Farce is letting another march in support of a proscribed Terrorist organisation go ahead on such a significant day for British People. 

And in a similar fashion to the just stop oil lunatics The Met will be more concerned about The Pro Hamas supporters being assaulted than the general public. 

 

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Brexit is the most shameful thing the UK has done in its history.

It is actually more shameful than Suez or the loss of the American colonies 

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23 minutes ago, cowslip said:

Brexit is the most shameful thing the UK has done in its history.

It is actually more shameful than Suez or the loss of the American colonies 

It is the best thing we ever did, we had the guts to leave an unelected undemocratic union that imposed its mad social rules on us, I can imagine quite a few other countries want to leave but do not have the guts to do it.

There will be some financial costs to pay initially as is the case in any new move eg setting up a new business but I am proud of the Brits (Well it was the English and the Welsh really) for voting to leave as I did. 

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23 minutes ago, PhuketBloke said:

It is the best thing we ever did, we had the guts to leave an unelected undemocratic union that imposed its mad social rules on us, I can imagine quite a few other countries want to leave but do not have the guts to do it.

There will be some financial costs to pay initially as is the case in any new move eg setting up a new business but I am proud of the Brits (Well it was the English and the Welsh really) for voting to leave as I did. 

Agreed.  The European Union 'experiment' will inevitably fail, brought down by its own inconsistencies, incompetence, left wing bias and the incompatibility of European Nations to ever work together for the common good.  It failed in 1520 when Cardinal Woolsey was the Lord High Chancellor of England and desperately tried to tie the country into an economic Union with France and other Nations.  It failed then, as it will fail again, and for the same reasons, because the Nations of Europe have very little in common, share no common language or culture and have a fractured history.  BREXIT was at least a good decision for the future of the UK, even as there will be medium term pain.  

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51 minutes ago, PhuketBloke said:

It is the best thing we ever did, we had the guts to leave an unelected undemocratic union that imposed its mad social rules on us, I can imagine quite a few other countries want to leave but do not have the guts to do it.

There will be some financial costs to pay initially as is the case in any new move eg setting up a new business but I am proud of the Brits (Well it was the English and the Welsh really) for voting to leave as I did. 

 

Overall, the comment that Brexit is the best thing the UK ever did is a simplistic and misleading view of a complex issue.

 

 

The EU is not unelected or undemocratic. The European Parliament is directly elected by the citizens of the EU, and the European Commission is appointed by the member states. The European Council, which is made up of the heads of state or government of the member states, is also democratically accountable to the national parliaments.

The EU does not impose” mad social rules” on its member states. The EU has a number of social policies, such as the Working Time Directive and the Equal Pay Directive, which are designed to protect workers and promote equality. However, these policies are set by the member states in consultation with each other.

There have been significant financial costs to Brexit. The UK economy has grown more slowly than the EU economy since Brexit, and the value of the pound has fallen against other currencies. This has made it more expensive for businesses to import goods and services, and for consumers to buy imported goods.

Brexit has also made it more difficult for UK businesses to trade with the EU. The UK is no longer part of the single market or the customs union, which means that there are now barriers to trade between the UK and the EU. This has made it more expensive and time-consuming for businesses to export and import goods.

The UK was able to negotiate its own trade deals with other countries while it was a member of the EU. In fact, the EU has negotiated trade deals on behalf of its member states with over 70 countries around the world.

The EU has been a force for good in Europe, promoting peace, prosperity, and democracy. The EU has helped to prevent war between European countries, and it has helped to raise the living standards of millions of people.

Brexit has divided the UK and made it more difficult to address important issues such as the cost of living crisis and climate change.

 

 

The comment that “Brexit is the best thing the UK ever did” is not supported by the evidence. The EU is a democratic institution, and Brexit has had significant negative consequences for the UK economy.

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1 hour ago, PhuketBloke said:

unelected undemocratic union

If its unelected how did Farage keep getting voted into it?

1 hour ago, PhuketBloke said:

that imposed its mad social rules on us

Which mad social rules? Can you name one?

1 hour ago, PhuketBloke said:

There will be some financial costs to pay initially

So no extra money for the NHS like what was written on the side of a bus? Well I for one am shocked to learn that Vote Leave lied. 

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5 hours ago, PhuketBloke said:

It is the best thing we ever did, we had the guts to leave an unelected undemocratic union that imposed its mad social rules on us, I can imagine quite a few other countries want to leave but do not have the guts to do it.

There will be some financial costs to pay initially as is the case in any new move eg setting up a new business but I am proud of the Brits (Well it was the English and the Welsh really) for voting to leave as I did. 

Key issue was always Sovereignty ( Control of Laws-Borders-Policy).
UK mindset (insist on small govt) very different to Continent ( loving big interfering directing Govts.).

Economics  ? Too Complicated. UK then worlds  5th largest economy. EU not required.

EU undemocratic and wanted political superstate, No. 

Only undemocratic traitor Communist/ Remoaner creatures would call a majority democratic national vote “ shameful”. When It’s that statement which is truly shameful & disgraceful. 
 

Good Summary  by Pinetree. Missed the NHS ! 
Compelled to return to live & work in UK 15 months ago after leaving in 2000  for good.
NHS surprisingly good in my case. Prompt attention & treatments. BUPA so far not needed.

Its the big cities ( everywhere) that are unbritish w0ke Nightmares. WFH a slackers wet dream but corporate policy everywhere just not for me. 
Given up all mega cities since post- Covid travel/ work again.
London Paris Bangkok ? No. Rome. Phuket. Oxford. Nimes. Madrid. Yes. 
UK Rural is the real Britain now. In pleasant small market town here. 
That Britain is still worth fighting & dying for.

 

 

 

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On 11/8/2023 at 7:43 PM, Pinetree said:

I am ashamed, embarrassed, disgusted and angry about the UK,  Reasons:

The Covid mess and the Inquiry evidence

Boris and his bunch of incompetent's, who are still in power

HS2, Heathrow, All UK Airports, BA, the rail system, the horribly inadequate road system, pathetic fast internet coverage, water companies incompetence 

An incompetent Civil Service

A destroyed military.

Inclusion and diversity madness.

A feckless, lazy, WFH obsessed workforce, who want above inflation pay rises to do less work.

A broken banking and insurance industry

A corrupt, incompetent Police Service allowing terrorist sympathizers to hold a rally on Remembrance Day and won't react to burglaries, and do nothing about the  Stop Oil lunatics blocking the Kings Highway. 

Thank goodness I am out of the place and I will never go back, not even to visit.   A 'First World Country'?  I think not.  

Yet you choose to live in a country that is far worse in the all those categories......

 

Now if you don't have kids in Thailand you can be sort of detached from all of that though.....

 

Well until your faced with one of those categories in Thailand on a personal level

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Great Britain nowadays promotes things like abortion and homosexuality throughout the world, working with the USA. Though historically, she was a great nation, unpleasant foreign powers pull her strings. I prefer Asia to get away from Britain's behavior, both politically, and as a wretched culture. 

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12 hours ago, Marc26 said:

Yet you choose to live in a country that is far worse in the all those categories......

Now if you don't have kids in Thailand you can be sort of detached from all of that though.....

Well until your faced with one of those categories in Thailand on a personal level

Well let's see about that.  First Covid.  My friends living here all agree that Thailand handled Covid as well as any country and a lot better than most.  The lock downs were relatively short, economic bubbles were allowed in rural locations so that people could buy and sell and the government even provided free vaccinations to all expats.  Thumbs up for that. Of course, the Monks did next to sod all, but what can you ever expect from them.  The major road system is spectacularly good, around me are many  dueled roads all lit and I can move almost anywhere with no jams and they are building more by the year.  The public transport in BKK knocks London into a cocked hat, it is excellent. The airport is first class, so no issues there. I have no remit for the Military here, nor the Civil Service, as I have no real attachment to the country, its history, or future, so those things do not bother me.  I see no diversity or discriminations issues on the scale of the UK.  Yes the Police are hopeless here , but the UK Police are little better, perhaps less corrupt, but even that is debatable.  Living in Thailand I find relaxing and easy on the mind and body, hence I am more that happy to have escaped ever living in the UK to stay here. My alternative would have been Taiwan, where I lived for a good few years.  Again, a very easy and efficient place to live, but a tad expensive.  

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1 hour ago, Pinetree said:

Well let's see about that.  First Covid.  My friends living here all agree that Thailand handled Covid as well as any country and a lot better than most.  The lock downs were relatively short, economic bubbles were allowed in rural locations so that people could buy and sell and the government even provided free vaccinations to all expats.  Thumbs up for that. Of course, the Monks did next to sod all, but what can you ever expect from them.  The major road system is spectacularly good, around me are many  dueled roads all lit and I can move almost anywhere with no jams and they are building more by the year.  The public transport in BKK knocks London into a cocked hat, it is excellent. The airport is first class, so no issues there. I have no remit for the Military here, nor the Civil Service, as I have no real attachment to the country, its history, or future, so those things do not bother me.  I see no diversity or discriminations issues on the scale of the UK.  Yes the Police are hopeless here , but the UK Police are little better, perhaps less corrupt, but even that is debatable.  Living in Thailand I find relaxing and easy on the mind and body, hence I am more that happy to have escaped ever living in the UK to stay here. My alternative would have been Taiwan, where I lived for a good few years.  Again, a very easy and efficient place to live, but a tad expensive.  

I was just sort of playing devil's advocate 

 

And as I said, if you are just an expat living their life with no kids, a lot that is wrong with Thailand doesn't really matter to someone like that 

 

Having my stepson I see thr corruption in so many things 

Wife wanting him to go to Air Force Academy and they want 500k

Wife wants him to be a doctor in Police or Military and it's all corruption 

 

And when you really have a real corrupt situation with Thai cops, it whacks you in the face with reality 

My gf got hit by a drunk driver and my friend's 15yr old niece from Scotland died

The cops in Patong harassed my gf, gave out our address to the suspect....

 

 

But I will still live there in retirement for a lot of the reasons you posted

 

A big thing for me is the ease of travme

When I travel in North America it's a day I have to endure and get through 

Flying domestically in Thailand and even all over Asia is just pleasant 

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2 hours ago, Marc26 said:

I was just sort of playing devil's advocate 

And as I said, if you are just an expat living their life with no kids, a lot that is wrong with Thailand doesn't really matter to someone like that 

Having my stepson I see thr corruption in so many things 

Wife wanting him to go to Air Force Academy and they want 500k

Wife wants him to be a doctor in Police or Military and it's all corruption 

And when you really have a real corrupt situation with Thai cops, it whacks you in the face with reality 

My gf got hit by a drunk driver and my friend's 15yr old niece from Scotland died

The cops in Patong harassed my gf, gave out our address to the suspect....

But I will still live there in retirement for a lot of the reasons you posted

A big thing for me is the ease of travme

When I travel in North America it's a day I have to endure and get through 

Flying domestically in Thailand and even all over Asia is just pleasant 

Yes, having children here changes everything and complicates divided loyalties.  I may have mentioned in previous posts that I have a Thai/British daughter, now in her mid twenties. However, she only spent her first 4 years in Thailand and then completed all of her education in the UK and Taiwan and lives in the UK, so that releases me (and her)  from any loyalty to Thailand. 

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21 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Key issue was always Sovereignty ( Control of Laws-Borders-Policy).
UK mindset (insist on small govt) very different to Continent ( loving big interfering directing Govts.).

Economics  ? Too Complicated. UK then worlds  5th largest economy. EU not required.

EU undemocratic and wanted political superstate, No. 

Only undemocratic traitor Communist/ Remoaner creatures would call a majority democratic national vote “ shameful”. When It’s that statement which is truly shameful & disgraceful. 
 

Good Summary  by Pinetree. Missed the NHS ! 
Compelled to return to live & work in UK 15 months ago after leaving in 2000  for good.
NHS surprisingly good in my case. Prompt attention & treatments. BUPA so far not needed.

Its the big cities ( everywhere) that are unbritish w0ke Nightmares. WFH a slackers wet dream but corporate policy everywhere just not for me. 
Given up all mega cities since post- Covid travel/ work again.
London Paris Bangkok ? No. Rome. Phuket. Oxford. Nimes. Madrid. Yes. 
UK Rural is the real Britain now. In pleasant small market town here. 
That Britain is still worth fighting & dying for.

 

·       The statement that the issue of sovereignty is based largely on racist, anti-immigrant notions is a dangerous generalization. While there are certainly some people who hold racist and anti-immigrant views, it is unfair to say that this is the motivation for all who support sovereignty.

·       The UK mindset of insisting on small government is not necessarily incompatible with the values of the European Union. The EU is a diverse organization with a wide range of member states, each with its own unique political and economic system.

·       The statement that the EU is undemocratic and wanted to create a political superstate is also misleading. The EU is a democratic organization with a number of checks and balances in place to prevent any one country from dominating.

·       Calling a majority democratic national vote "shameful" is not undemocratic. In fact, it is a perfectly legitimate way to express disagreement with the outcome of a vote.

·       The NHS is a vital part of the UK's public health system, and it is important to ensure that it remains well-funded and accessible to all.

·       The claim that big cities are "unbritish ekow Nightmares" is a harmful stereotype. There are many people from all walks of life who live and work in big cities, and it is important to celebrate the diversity of these communities.

·       The statement that WFH is a "slackers wet dream" is also unfair. Many people who work from home are highly productive and conscientious employees.

·       The claim that the UK rural is the "real Britain" is another harmful stereotype. There are many different ways of being British, and it is important to respect the diversity of our country.

Overall, the given statement is full of generalizations, stereotypes, and inaccuracies. It is important to challenge these harmful views and to promote a more inclusive and tolerant vision of Britain.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, cowslip said:

·       The statement that the issue of sovereignty is based largely on racist, anti-immigrant notions is a dangerous generalization. While there are certainly some people who hold racist and anti-immigrant views, it is unfair to say that this is the motivation for all who support sovereignty.

·       The UK mindset of insisting on small government is not necessarily incompatible with the values of the European Union. The EU is a diverse organization with a wide range of member states, each with its own unique political and economic system.

·       The statement that the EU is undemocratic and wanted to create a political superstate is also misleading. The EU is a democratic organization with a number of checks and balances in place to prevent any one country from dominating.

·       Calling a majority democratic national vote "shameful" is not undemocratic. In fact, it is a perfectly legitimate way to express disagreement with the outcome of a vote.

·       The NHS is a vital part of the UK's public health system, and it is important to ensure that it remains well-funded and accessible to all.

·       The claim that big cities are "unbritish ekow Nightmares" is a harmful stereotype. There are many people from all walks of life who live and work in big cities, and it is important to celebrate the diversity of these communities.

·       The statement that WFH is a "slackers wet dream" is also unfair. Many people who work from home are highly productive and conscientious employees.

·       The claim that the UK rural is the "real Britain" is another harmful stereotype. There are many different ways of being British, and it is important to respect the diversity of our country.

Overall, the given statement is full of generalizations, stereotypes, and inaccuracies. It is important to challenge these harmful views and to promote a more inclusive and tolerant vision of Britain.

Well argued but flawed socialist case. Being a free sovereign (independent) nation is key to national identity & cohesion.Nothing racist or anti immigrant about that. All legal immigrants of all types are welcome subject to legal reasonable quotas and compliance with our laws and adoption of our values. In such way anyone can become British or Honorary British. Many retired Nepalese in my old area here. Former Gurkhas of course. Hard Working & No Trouble. Bangladeshi Muslims a tiny law abiding hard working community so no trouble.

Big Cities here infested with Violent Unreasoning Pakistani Islamics (and Socialists) who hate British Culture and White People and whose Koran they selectively follow calls for the death of all non- Muslims. These Death Cult Fascists are Completely Incompatible with Western Democracy. Pakistanis detested by other Muslims for their extreme mindless religious violence.

It’s the sheer scale and nature of Immigration and lack of integration that compromises essential societal cohesion and strains our limited govt. infrastructure.

THAT is really what’s  “shameful”. Not a Free Democratic Vote for Sovereignty (Independence).
Yes that can be disagreed with as “ misguided” but never “ shameful”.
Shame attaches to illegal or immoral acts not a people’s wish to Free & Independent once more.. 

EU Parliament is Democratic but a largely powerless talking shop.

EU Commission runs everything and is unelected so not properly Democratic.

Never been any EU Referendum to convert EC Trade Bloc (what UK entered) to an EU Single Political Federal Entity like USA or Canada…..

The only proper & valuable Diversity & Inclusion are Beliefs Skills Methods Experience Cooperation.

NOT Ethnicity- Colour- Multi Culture. Keep all that irrelevant emotive stuff Private and Supplemental to Public Adherence to British Culture & Values, when in UK. 
 

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12 hours ago, Pinetree said:

 The major road system is spectacularly good, around me are many  dueled roads all lit and I can move almost anywhere with no jams and they are building more by the year.  The public transport in BKK knocks London into a cocked hat, it is excellent. The airport is first class, so no issues there.

I landed in IAD yesterday after leaving BKK.   My first thought was "IAD is ghetto".    I already miss the BTS.  

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2 hours ago, cowslip said:

true freedom.....

My Europe - 314411213_517078620433338_4508012009317786842_n.jpeg

That’s Western Europe not the EU. I know you think EU is Western Europe but ……it’s not….. not even close,……sorry.

Today of all days let us remember that it was the British Commonwealth and USA who liberated Western Europe in 1945 ……..the same Europe which created and built both Fascism and Communism there…….ironic, is is not …… ? 

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11 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

That’s Western Europe not the EU. I know you think EU is Western Europe but ……it’s not….. not even close,……sorry.

Today of all days let us remember that it was the British Commonwealth and USA who liberated Western Europe in 1945 ……..the same Europe which created and built both Fascism and Communism there…….ironic, is is not …… ? 

27 countries = EU

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Ignorance in particular of history is a predominant characteristic of Brexiteers..

“There is a remedy which ... would in a few years make all Europe ... free and ... happy. It is to re-create the European family, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe.” - Churchill

 

Several prominent British leaders advocated for a united Europe in the aftermath of World War II, recognizing the need for closer cooperation to prevent future conflicts and rebuild the war-torn continent. Among the most notable figures were:

Winston Churchill: In a 1946 speech at the University of Zurich, Churchill delivered a powerful appeal for a "United States of Europe," emphasizing the importance of a united front to safeguard peace and democracy. He envisioned a "European family" bound by shared values and institutions.

Ernest Bevin: As Foreign Secretary from 1945 to 1951, Bevin played a crucial role in shaping post-war European cooperation. He supported the establishment of the Council of Europe in 1949 and the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) in 1951, laying the groundwork for deeper European integration.

Clement Attlee: Labour Prime Minister from 1945 to 1951, Attlee initially expressed reservations about closer European ties, but he gradually came to support the ECSC, recognizing its potential to foster economic recovery and prevent future industrial conflicts.

Harold Macmillan: Conservative Prime Minister from 1957 to 1963, Macmillan was a staunch advocate for European unity. He applied for Britain's membership in the European Economic Community (EEC), the successor to the ECSC, but his efforts were ultimately unsuccessful due to concerns about the implications for Britain's Commonwealth ties.

These British leaders, along with many others, recognized the devastating impact of war and the need for a new approach to European relations. Their calls for a united Europe laid the foundation for the European Union, which has played a pivotal role in promoting peace, prosperity, and cooperation across the continent.

 

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27 minutes ago, cowslip said:

Ignorance in particular of history is a predominant characteristic of Brexiteers..

“There is a remedy which ... would in a few years make all Europe ... free and ... happy. It is to re-create the European family, or as much of it as we can, and to provide it with a structure under which it can dwell in peace, in safety and in freedom. We must build a kind of United States of Europe.” - Churchill

Several prominent British leaders advocated for a united Europe in the aftermath of World War II, recognizing the need for closer cooperation to prevent future conflicts and rebuild the war-torn continent. Among the most notable figures were:

Winston Churchill: In a 1946 speech at the University of Zurich, Churchill delivered a powerful appeal for a "United States of Europe," emphasizing the importance of a united front to safeguard peace and democracy. He envisioned a "European family" bound by shared values and institutions.

Ernest Bevin: As Foreign Secretary from 1945 to 1951, Bevin played a crucial role in shaping post-war European cooperation. He supported the establishment of the Council of Europe in 1949 and the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC) in 1951, laying the groundwork for deeper European integration.

Clement Attlee: Labour Prime Minister from 1945 to 1951, Attlee initially expressed reservations about closer European ties, but he gradually came to support the ECSC, recognizing its potential to foster economic recovery and prevent future industrial conflicts.

Harold Macmillan: Conservative Prime Minister from 1957 to 1963, Macmillan was a staunch advocate for European unity. He applied for Britain's membership in the European Economic Community (EEC), the successor to the ECSC, but his efforts were ultimately unsuccessful due to concerns about the implications for Britain's Commonwealth ties.

These British leaders, along with many others, recognized the devastating impact of war and the need for a new approach to European relations. Their calls for a united Europe laid the foundation for the European Union, which has played a pivotal role in promoting peace, prosperity, and cooperation across the continent.

All grossly selective and out of context. If talking economic not political integration then fine. We did that.
However, it was that Democracy was imposed on the defeated Fascist Germany & Italy and across all Western Europe by UK / US, and NATO formed, by those same above Politicians, against the Soviet Menace, that ensured European Peace.

Democracies don’t war on each other. No EU Required for that. Those weakened Democracies needed Serious Protection. Hello NATO. Again the EU not required nor fit for purpose. Basically it was the English Speaking Peoples protecting the compelled democratic weak Europeans….. and still is ffs….

European “ Family”  a non- existent myth. Europe THE most violent region for thousands of years until UK Defeated Napoleon 1815.Then again with the two World Wars.

Family ? Never. Some Shared Cultural Scientific Trade Education Affinity & Joit Development, yes certainly.
UK & European jointly scientists discovered nuclear energy for example. UK First to Industrialise though…..

British Advanced Civilised Culture has little in common with Backward Muslim Albania or Bosnia or Russified Bulgaria or goat herding Greeks, for example. Those places are closer to Muslim Asia in mindset.

EU resembles the defunct League of Nations and UN. Another failed ineffectual international experiment.

It was Capitalism and US Generosity that restored Western Europe €after WW2 and lifted Europeans “out of Poverty” not EU ! Recall an Italian colleague telling me how “ everything doubled in price” in Italy after the disastrous Euro introduced. Thankfully UK Opted Out of Euro as with Schengen….. 

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