Biden stands by decision to withdraw troops, says no leaving without ‘chaos ensuing’

[Fester]

38 minutes ago, riclag said:

Sorry @Fester !  I should of addressed his comment  earlier !

Your apology is uneccessary but thanks anyway. Stonker got muddled up....again. 

[riclag]

25 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Well ...  ummm ... a C-17 isn't a helicopter.

OMG ! I never said that it was! Your having a bad day ! You go after the wrong person on my comment then your mixing up  helicopters and planes 

Bottom line the pilots were idiots  ! They knew that people were clinging to the plane but they decided to take off anyway!

"Mindful of the people hanging onto the plane, the pilots taxied slowly at first. Military Humvees rushed alongside trying to chase people away and off the plane. Two Apache helicopter gunships flew low, seeking to scare some people away from the plane or push them off with their powerful rotor wash".

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/air-force-to-investigate-afghan-civilian-deaths-as-jblm-based-c-17-took-off-from-kabul-airport/

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by riclag

[Fester]

13 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Well, you quoted and replied to it, so I did you the courtesy of replying - as I am here.

You really are in a tiz. Are you really sure you are there?

[Rain]

1 hour ago, mcambl61 said:

no, biden is a proven career corrupt political hack.

total and complete empty vessel, that enriched his faily using political influence.

belongs in prison forever

Should apply to all of 'em.

Same club. 

Cycles on.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Continuing to do so here is not only disrespectful to the moderators who have warned you to stop twice already, but insulting to those here who would like to discuss the topic (which happens to include me).

Are you making false claims about the mods again Walter? 

Now get back on topic my little armchair General I waiting with baited breath for your next DS solution to the Afghanistan problem there magic Bud have you ever thought about being a Military consultant on the BBC or C4 Bud ?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Poolie said:

Whahey, REME!! Second, behind the imposter.

He's a genuine old Soldier Poolie Bud with his GSM 1962 & LSGC 555555

I don't know about the Chap in front mind you 3 x gallantry medals and loads of dodgy looking gongs like Monty himself 55555

[Fester]

58 minutes ago, Poolie said:

Whahey, REME!! Second, behind the imposter.

I doubt that. Hard to be on parade with barred DSO and MC without being known. 

[Alavan]

6 hours ago, gummy said:

And now we could shortly be seeing a Hezbollah/Taliban/Iran alliance with Pakistan support. Then the sparks will fly with Israel

Would be special, soenite Taliban (who just executed some sjhiite minority men) being helped by sjhiite Iran and Hezbollah.

[Alavan]

6 hours ago, 23RD said:

Correct me if I'm wrong any US Veterans but I'm sure the last conscription/draft for The US Military was during the Vietnam war.

I don't know about Biden, but seeing his age he should have been drafted before 73.
Lieutenant Heelspur Trump evaded being sent to Vietnam faking...

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Alavan said:

I don't know about Biden, but seeing his age he should have been drafted before 73.
Lieutenant Heelspur Trump evaded being sent to Vietnam faking...

Amazing looking back the money talked during the draft Alavan I watched a documentary about John Kerry a few weeks ago he throw his pals under the bus with his anti war stance like Hanoi Jane.

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, riclag said:

OMG ! I never said that it was! Your having a bad day ! You go after the wrong person on my comment then your mixing up  helicopters and planes 

Bottom line the pilots were idiots  ! They knew that people were clinging to the plane but they decided to take off anyway!

"Mindful of the people hanging onto the plane, the pilots taxied slowly at first. Military Humvees rushed alongside trying to chase people away and off the plane. Two Apache helicopter gunships flew low, seeking to scare some people away from the plane or push them off with their powerful rotor wash".

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/air-force-to-investigate-afghan-civilian-deaths-as-jblm-based-c-17-took-off-from-kabul-airport/

 

No, I didn't "go after" anyone, but simply replied to comments quoting me, nor am I "mixing up" anything. 

 

I simply took your first comment at face value - evidently a mistake.

 

Your link doesn't work, but from the TV clips of the take-off, which are extensive, whoever wrote that had a vivid imagination.

 

There's no sign of any Humvees anywhere near the crowd around the plane (1109) as it's taxiing, certainly not "alongside" the plane, and under absolutely no circumstances would Apaches have flown low enough over it as it was taxiing and taking off to have "pushed them off with their powerful rotor wash".

 

It's a simply moronic idea, as it could just as easily have pushed them into the engines along with enough FOD (foreign object debris) to ensure that the flight would have had to be grounded.

 

What actually happened with the Apaches, which was also shown on the news,  is that after the C-17 (1109) had taken off they cleared the runway with Humvees and flew two Apaches down the runway at low level.

 

Two totally separate incidents.

 

An enquiry is mandatory under these circumstances - nothing to do with whether they were "idiots" or not, which will be up to the enquiry.

 

[Stonker]

40 minutes ago, Alavan said:

I don't know about Biden, but seeing his age he should have been drafted before 73.
Lieutenant Heelspur Trump evaded being sent to Vietnam faking...

He had five student draft deferments and a medical exemption, which according to a statement when he was Vice-President was because he "had asthma as a teenager" - although it evidently wasn't bad enough to stop him playing football and working as a lifeguard.

 

Trump had four draft deferments and a medical exemption for "heel spurs", despite playing football and tennis.

Both were medically graded 1-Y.

 

Not a great deal to choose between them.

[riclag]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

No, I didn't "go after" anyone, but simply replied to comments quoting me, nor am I "mixing up" anything. 

I simply took your first comment at face value - evidently a mistake.

Your link doesn't work, but from the TV clips of the take-off, which are extensive, whoever wrote that had a vivid imagination.

There's no sign of any Humvees anywhere near the crowd around the plane (1109) as it's taxiing, certainly not "alongside" the plane, and under absolutely no circumstances would Apaches have flown low enough over it as it was taxiing and taking off to have "pushed them off with their powerful rotor wash".

It's a simply moronic idea, as it could just as easily have pushed them into the engines along with enough FOD (foreign object debris) to ensure that the flight would have had to be grounded.

What actually happened with the Apaches, which was also shown on the news,  is that after the C-17 (1109) had taken off they cleared the runway with Humvees and flew two Apaches down the runway at low level.

Two totally separate incidents.

An enquiry is mandatory under these circumstances - nothing to do with whether they were "idiots" or not, which will be up to the enquiry.

"Your link doesn't work, but from the TV clips of the take-off, which are extensive, whoever wrote that had a vivid imagination"

 Try google ,

"Air Force to investigate Afghan civilian deaths as JBLM-based C-17"

 

"There's no sign of any Humvees anywhere near the crowd around the plane (1109) as it's taxiing, certainly not "alongside" the plane, and under absolutely no circumstances would Apaches have flown low enough over it as it was taxiing and taking off to have "pushed them off with their powerful rotor wash".

Now your disputing what  was  reported, as if you there!   You asked me a question ,what were the pilots suppose to do   and I told you ! Whether you believe it or not is your problem !

They were responsible for the deaths of those who fell to their death  and they will answer to it!

I'm done with you  on this topic !To be continued, maybe next time in another biden screw up! thread.

"Two Apache helicopter gunships flew low, seeking to scare some people away from the plane or push them off with their powerful rotor wash".

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/air-force-to-investigate-afghan-civilian-deaths-as-jblm-based-c-17-took-off-from-kabul-airport/

 

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2021 by riclag

[Stonker]

22 minutes ago, riclag said:

 now your disputing what  was  reported, as if you there!

Ummm ..... no.

I'm disputing it based on "the TV clips of the take off which are extensive" as I said, and you even quoted me saying it!

 

... and it's not a question of whether I believe you or not, but simply that your solution wasn't possible.

 

Byeee

 

[LoongFred]

6 hours ago, Stonker said:

He had five student draft deferments and a medical exemption, which according to a statement when he was Vice-President was because he "had asthma as a teenager" - although it evidently wasn't bad enough to stop him playing football and working as a lifeguard.

Trump had four draft deferments and a medical exemption for "heel spurs", despite playing football and tennis.

Both were medically graded 1-Y.

Not a great deal to choose between them.

Asthma wasn't enough to get me out, so it had to be corruption. Maybe it was a gut thing because Biden has none. Or maybe he told a lie, OMG unbelieveable.

 

[Stonker]

39 minutes ago, LoongFred said:

Asthma wasn't enough to get me out, so it had to be corruption. Maybe it was a gut thing because Biden has none. Or maybe he told a lie, OMG unbelieveable.

Biden and Trump were both 1Y, both clearly through contacts rather than health, and George W dodged the draft by joining the National Guard while Kerry commanded Swift boats, was wounded in action and awarded a Silver Star.

 

While the US military may be held in higher regard now than post-Vietnam, arguably without any justification, neither military service nor avoiding military service seem to be an issue for the US electorate.

In some ways that may not be a bad thing.

[Stonker]

It looks like the current controlled  chaos only has a week to go before the uncontrolled chaos starts, as UK Armed Forces minister James Heappey said yesterday that any extension to the 31 August deadline tacitly agreed by the Taliban would have to also be agreed by them, and the Taliban have said they're not going to give any extensions.

"Defence secretary Ben Wallace has said the Kabul evacuation effort is “down to hours now, not weeks” as the 31 August deadline looms, and conceded Britain’s involvement will end when the US leaves Afghanistan. The UK has evacuated 8,000 people, but there are at least 1,800 UK nationals still awaiting passage out of Kabul to Britain, plus more than 2,000 Afghans who have worked to help the UK."

 

The evacuation  should have started two years ago, not two weeks ago, and coalition countries, not just current coalition governments, are collectively responsible for the failure to do so. 

 

 

[9S_]

17 hours ago, Stonker said:

It isn't a Republican or a Democrat failure, as both parties failed to do anything

What!?! Democrats control the White House, the Senate and Congress when Afghanistan fell. Not to mention the White House is usually the one who handles foreign affairs and when Afghanistan fell it was occupied by a democrat who:

1. Reneged on Trumps deal

2. Didn’t retaliate when the Taliban attacked in mid April which nullified Trumps deal

3. Didn’t evacuate citizens first

4. Abandoned Begram airbase in the dead of night and didn’t even notify their afghan countertops. No joke the Afghan commander just stumbled upon an empty airbase. 
5. Allowed the Taliban access to $85 billion in US military equipment including 150 Blackhawk helicopters, hundreds of thousands of rifles, explosives, mortars, anti tank missiles, heat seeking missiles and other advanced military equipment. 
 

6. Ignored US diplomats on the ground in Afghanistan for months

7. Ignored Pentagon advisors, intelligence advisors and military advisors

What we’re seeing now is the failure of one administration: the Biden administration. 

[riclag]

52 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

What!?! Democrats control the White House, the Senate and Congress when Afghanistan fell. Not to mention the White House is usually the one who handles foreign affairs and when Afghanistan fell it was occupied by a democrat who:

1. Reneged on Trumps deal

2. Didn’t retaliate when the Taliban attacked in mid April which nullified Trumps deal

3. Didn’t evacuate citizens first

4. Abandoned Begram airbase in the dead of night and didn’t even notify their afghan countertops. No joke the Afghan commander just stumbled upon an empty airbase. 
5. Allowed the Taliban access to $85 billion in US military equipment including 150 Blackhawk helicopters, hundreds of thousands of rifles, explosives, mortars, anti tank missiles, heat seeking missiles and other advanced military equipment. 
 

6. Ignored US diplomats on the ground in Afghanistan for months

7. Ignored Pentagon advisors, intelligence advisors and military advisors

What we’re seeing now is the failure of one administration: the Biden administration. 

Your 7 bullet points were spot on.

To be fair , many of  Obiden  bureaucrats who  joined biden's  Wokehouse, helped make your 7 points , another foreign policy disaster !

Edited August 24, 2021 by riclag

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, 9S_ said:

What!?! Democrats control the White House, the Senate and Congress when Afghanistan fell. Not to mention the White House is usually the one who handles foreign affairs and when Afghanistan fell it was occupied by a democrat who:

1. Reneged on Trumps deal

2. Didn’t retaliate when the Taliban attacked in mid April which nullified Trumps deal

3. Didn’t evacuate citizens first

4. Abandoned Begram airbase in the dead of night and didn’t even notify their afghan countertops. No joke the Afghan commander just stumbled upon an empty airbase. 
5. Allowed the Taliban access to $85 billion in US military equipment including 150 Blackhawk helicopters, hundreds of thousands of rifles, explosives, mortars, anti tank missiles, heat seeking missiles and other advanced military equipment. 
 

6. Ignored US diplomats on the ground in Afghanistan for months

7. Ignored Pentagon advisors, intelligence advisors and military advisors

What we’re seeing now is the failure of one administration: the Biden administration. 

They've had twenty years to prepare, but nobody, from any administration, did anything constructive.

Pointing the finger at whoever was in the chair at the time or whoever did (or didn't) do the groundwork is a bit sad, as it suggests that America as a country still hasn't learnt anything from Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan and they're still just as likely to do the same thing yet again.

 

Interesting comment from John Bolton, Trump's former National Security Advisor (one of many), on CNN: "Had Trump been re-elected he'd be doing the same thing. On this question of withdrawal from Afghanistan Trump and Biden are like Tweedledum and Tweedledee"

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, 9S_ said:

What!?! Democrats control the White House, the Senate and Congress when Afghanistan fell. Not to mention the White House is usually the one who handles foreign affairs and when Afghanistan fell it was occupied by a democrat who:

1. Reneged on Trumps deal

2. Didn’t retaliate when the Taliban attacked in mid April which nullified Trumps deal

3. Didn’t evacuate citizens first

4. Abandoned Begram airbase in the dead of night and didn’t even notify their afghan countertops. No joke the Afghan commander just stumbled upon an empty airbase. 
5. Allowed the Taliban access to $85 billion in US military equipment including 150 Blackhawk helicopters, hundreds of thousands of rifles, explosives, mortars, anti tank missiles, heat seeking missiles and other advanced military equipment. 
 

6. Ignored US diplomats on the ground in Afghanistan for months

7. Ignored Pentagon advisors, intelligence advisors and military advisors

What we’re seeing now is the failure of one administration: the Biden administration. 

Just to skim through your 7 points, FWIW.

1. What part of the "deal" was any different, apart from the date?

2. Military operations by the US ceased in 2014. Maybe you didn't notice.

3. US citizens didn't get in the queue first. Rather up to them!

4. Agreed. As I pointed out before, it would have been nice to at least tell the countertops.

5.It wasn't "US military equipment". It was ANSF equipment the US had already given away.

6 and 7. Agreed - carrying on a long established US presidential tradition.

[Poolie]

11 hours ago, Fester said:

I doubt that. Hard to be on parade with barred DSO and MC without being known. 

Don't understand? I'm fick, me.

I only looked at his cap badge. Thats REME? The bloke second from the front.

[9S_]

26 minutes ago, Stonker said:

They've had twenty years to prepare, but nobody, from any administration, did anything constructive.

Pointing the finger at whoever was in the chair at the time or whoever did (or didn't) do the groundwork is a bit sad, as it suggests that America as a country still hasn't learnt anything from Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan and they're still just as likely to do the same thing yet again.

Interesting comment from John Bolton, Trump's former National Security Advisor (one of many), on CNN: "Had Trump been re-elected he'd be doing the same thing. On this question of withdrawal from Afghanistan Trump and Biden are like Tweedledum and Tweedledee"

Let’s see Trump was able to sign a conditional peace deal with the Taliban that included a clause: that if the Taliban broke the deal (which they did in Mid-April of this year, the US would respond, which Biden didn’t).  Seems like a step in the right direction. And guess what Taliban actually held up part of their deal by negotiating with the Afghan government. Because they knew if they did anything funny, Trump would drop America’s 2nd most powerful bomb (a nuclear bomb is #1) on them again like he did with ISIS along the AfghanistN-Pakistan border.
 

No attacks by the Taliban while he was in office. 
No provincial capitals fell while he was in office. 
Begram airbase was firmly in US control while he was in office. 
The Taliban didn’t secure $85 billion in US military equipment while he was in office. 
 

Now Trump left office in Jan 2021, giving the reigns to Joe Biden, who now we know ignored all military, intelligence and pentagon advice regarding Afghanistan. 
 

Biden, not Trump because, Trump isn’t president when this happened, Biden was: did not fulfill Trumps deal when the Taliban attacked in mid-April 2021. When the Us didn’t respond the Taliban knew Joe was weak and they planned their attacks for the next few months, again while Biden was in office. 
 

And as Biden is in office, he repeatedly bragged how it was his decision to withdraw from Afghanistan, ignore the retaliation clause in Trumps deal, ignore Trumps deadline for troop withdrawal as evidenced here: Comment #38312

Not to mention he lied to the American people that everything is okay when in fact military, pentagon, Afghanistan on the ground diplomats and intelligence officials/advisors all urged him to reconsider his plans. He ignored them all. 
 

In regards to Vietnam, it was Joe Biden as US Senator who led the charge to abandon and cut military aide to South Vietnam. Saigon did not immediately fall like Kabul. In fact South Vietnam was able to hold their own against the North Vietnamese well after American troops withdrew. Saigon only fell after Joe Biden, as US Senator, fought to cut aid to South Vietnam. Sound familiar?? He’s doing it again. 
 

Also Joe Biden was US Senator for 8 years of the war and Vice President 8 years of the war in Afghanistan. He was even quoted that he doesn’t care if human rights are violated in Afghanistan or that girls couldn’t go to school under Taliban rule. 
 

The facts are this is Bidens mess. He literally owns it. He reneged on Trumps deal. Refused to follow the retaliation clause and left tens of thousands of Americans and our allies to dry behind Taliban enemy lines who are now equipped with $85 billion in US military equipment. We are in a far more dangerous position than we even entered the war in 2001!!! Taliban control more territory than before, have more advanced equipment than before, more powerful allies than before again all happened under Bidens watch. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by 9S_
Typos

[9S_]

32 minutes ago, Stonker said:

What part of the "deal" was any different, apart from the date?

The peace deal included a clause that if the Taliban FAFO and the deal would be nullified. And they didn’t.  They went to the Afghan government to start negotiations because if they FAFO, Trump would drop another MOAB on their base. Since Joe Biden ignored the peace deal and changed the date this is on him not Trump. Hell even the Taliban knew Biden was weak. 

 

32 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Military operations by the US ceased in 2014. Maybe you didn't notice.

And we still had a military presence. Trump unleashed the US 2nd most powerful bomb against ISIS in Afghanistan obliterating their main-HQ in Afghanistan. That’s a strong deterrent to not stir stuff up while Trump was in office. And then Biden came along…

 

32 minutes ago, Stonker said:

US citizens didn't get in the queue first. Rather up to them!

Except based on military, pentagon, US diplomat and intelligence officials statements going back to early in the year, Biden knew all was not well in Afghanistan and should’ve evacuated citizens first rather than the military. 
 

32 minutes ago, Stonker said:

4. Agreed. As I pointed out before, it would have been nice to at least tell the countertops.

And Biden didn’t do that when he decided to close the airbase. Therefore Bidens decision

32 minutes ago, Stonker said:

5.It wasn't "US military equipment". It was ANSF equipment the US had already given away.

And we gave it to them. To the tune of $85 Billion. Also they were able to seize advanced military equipment. Taliban is now more powerful than before. Under Bidens watch. 

 

32 minutes ago, Stonker said:

and 7. Agreed - carrying on a long established US presidential tradition.

Except that Bush wanted to leave but his military, pentagon and intelligence advisors told him not to, he complied

Obama too wanted to leave but his military, pentagon and intelligence advisors told him not to, he too complied

Trump also wanted to leave but his military, pentagon and intelligence advisers told him not to, he too complied

Joe Biden received ample and dire warnings but he didn’t listen. He went ahead. And now the Taliban control more territory than before in 2001. More military equipment than before in 2001. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by 9S_
Typos and context added

[Fester]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

They've had twenty years to prepare, but nobody, from any administration, did anything constructive.

Pointing the finger at whoever was in the chair at the time or whoever did (or didn't) do the groundwork is a bit sad, as it suggests that America as a country still hasn't learnt anything from Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan and they're still just as likely to do the same thing yet again.

Interesting comment from John Bolton, Trump's former National Security Advisor (one of many), on CNN: "Had Trump been re-elected he'd be doing the same thing. On this question of withdrawal from Afghanistan Trump and Biden are like Tweedledum and Tweedledee"

You are being selective with the text cuts - in the VDO Bolton also said he thinks that Biden "bears primary resposibility" for the way the withdrawal was handled - and that's the real issue here.

And re your 41747 post - it's inquiry, not enquiry - I know you like to remind peeps of the proper meaning of words and abbreviations....

Edited August 24, 2021 by Fester