Biden stands by decision to withdraw troops, says no leaving without ‘chaos ensuing’

[Fester]

19 minutes ago, Stonker said:

I can answer all of mine, and thought I had - at some length!

In brief, all that could have been done better once the mistake of entering a conflict that couldn't be won had been made was to have a withdrawal plan.

That should have included evacuating all those you wanted to while you could, which would have meant starting the process two years ago so that the last were evacuated a fortnight ago, not leaving it until a fortnight ago - unless you never meant to evacuate them at all.

Generally, I agree. But Biden lacked the foresight to start evacuating people while he had the chance - if he had ordered that then a lot of the problem could have been avoided. There have also been breaches of the Doha agreement by the Taliban but Biden did not challenge these by reversing troop withdrawals as was always an option in these cases, as far as Trump was concened. Now, somehow, extra troops from the US, UK, Oz and elsewhere have appeared at the airport - some kudos amidst the panic - but more high risk.

There also seems to be at several thousand expat Afghanis in the country on "visits"" from the UK and elsewhere who have been there for months but knew of the US/NATO exit plan but who have seemingly pushed the envelope much too far and so now risk not getting out at all. Similarly some expats working for NGO's are stranded because they've stayed too long. All these groups (yes, I know, many with worthy causes) should have been removed from Afghanistan weeks or months ago,then those waiting on visas (like army interpreters and similar) would have been the only ones to worry about. All this could have been done so that everyone who qulaified could have had an even chance of getting out without this mess.  

[Stonker]

59 minutes ago, Fester said:

Generally, I agree. But Biden lacked the foresight to start evacuating people while he had the chance - if he had ordered that then a lot of the problem could have been avoided. There have also been breaches of the Doha agreement by the Taliban but Biden did not challenge these by reversing troop withdrawals as was always an option in these cases, as far as Trump was concened. Now, somehow, extra troops from the US, UK, Oz and elsewhere have appeared at the airport - some kudos amidst the panic - but more high risk.

There also seems to be at several thousand expat Afghanis in the country on "visits"" from the UK and elsewhere who have been there for months but knew of the US/NATO exit plan but who have seemingly pushed the envelope much too far and so now risk not getting out at all. Similarly some expats working for NGO's are stranded because they've stayed too long. All these groups (yes, I know, many with worthy causes) should have been removed from Afghanistan weeks or months ago,then those waiting on visas (like army interpreters and similar) would have been the only ones to worry about. All this could have been done so that everyone who qulaified could have had an even chance of getting out without this mess.  

I think we're agreeing far more than we're disagreeing, @Fester.

 

The only point we're really disagreeing on is the time frame, and I can't help thinking that's American blinkers trying to put the blame on Democrats or Republicans - the former to blame for no plan on pulling out, the latter to blame for no plan on going in.

 

In reality, the coalition had twenty years to sort it out so that covers everyone: Republicans and Democrats in the US, and Labour and Tories in the UK, etc, etc.

 

No one's blameless here, and no-one has any excuse.

[AlexPTY]

Biden didn't do any health check since he become a president, that's the reason why. Just watch his interview with Stephanopoulos. This president offered a barely coherent word salad in most responses

[AlexPTY]

2 hours ago, 9S_ said:

As at least 10,000 American lives and nearly 15,000+ Afghan allies are stranded behind Taliban lines Joe Biden goes on vacation again 

He was on vacation the week before Afghanistan fell

He was on vacation the weekend Afghanistan fell

He was still on vacation 2 days after Afghanistan fell

I think they are looking at the first female president in US pretty soon

[Morpheus]

On 8/20/2021 at 8:20 AM, Stonker said:

Unfortunately not possible.  

Sneaking out several thousand troops and tons of equipment without anyone noticing wouldn't work anywhere, let alone in Afghanistan where local and foreign contractors are an unavoidable part of the system - not to mention processing visas for thousands of locally employed and their families, whose trust and support you need up to the last second, even if you're prepared to renege on your promises and ditch them.

Without the agreement of the opposition - in this case the Taliban - and their participation, any withdrawal with any semblance of order and dignity is a non-starter and it's going to be chaos, and the only question is how badly.

TBH it could have been a lot worse - and potentially it still may be, as the Taliban are seeing their aid and funds overseas frozen - that, at least, should have been delayed until after everyone was out rather than throwing away one of the few cards they had left, but the West managed to stuff even that up.

Does'nt it seem strange  that all that equipment was left behind? The had planned the withdrawal months ago. I suspect a deal was made with the Taliban.

[Poolie]

6 minutes ago, dunroamin said:

Does'nt it seem strange  that all that equipment was left behind? The had planned the withdrawal months ago. I suspect a deal was made with the Taliban.

I  suspect a deal was made with Lockheed/Raytheon/Grumman etc.

[Fester]

2 hours ago, AlexPTY said:

I think they are looking at the first female president in US pretty soon

Just as bad. They should both quit.

[Fester]

3 hours ago, Stonker said:

I think we're agreeing far more than we're disagreeing, @Fester.

The only point we're really disagreeing on is the time frame, and I can't help thinking that's American blinkers trying to put the blame on Democrats or Republicans - the former to blame for no plan on pulling out, the latter to blame for no plan on going in.

In reality, the coalition had twenty years to sort it out so that covers everyone: Republicans and Democrats in the US, and Labour and Tories in the UK, etc, etc.

No one's blameless here, and no-one has any excuse.

Well Trump wanted out - no question - this was the first real committment to leave. But progress after the Doha negotiations slowed due to infringements of the agreement and the killing of an American.

The news is not the leaving but the way it has been (mis) handled. Six months was enough time to organize a far, far better solution than this. A temporary increase in troop numbers might have been needed but if Bagram had not been given up, that option would have been far easier to take up and the soldiers helping these people out would have been far more comfortable than the Paras seem to be in Kabul now.    

I just hope they can get everyone out soon and safely.

 

[Rain]

3 hours ago, Poolie said:

I  suspect a deal was made with Lockheed/Raytheon/Grumman etc.

Empire building and militarism is very big business. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, dunroamin said:

Does'nt it seem strange  that all that equipment was left behind? The had planned the withdrawal months ago. I suspect a deal was made with the Taliban.

Definitely when you think how The British closed down Camp Bastion in 140 days with a fraction of the resources of The US Military.

[riclag]

17 minutes ago, 23RD said:

Definitely when you think how The British closed down Camp Bastion in 140 days with a fraction of the resources of The US Military.

I heard on the news that once the Afghan military got paid a while back, 40 percent of them blew Dodge and went back to their villages!

I also watched a clip of a American soldier saying  that the military were boy scouts masquerading as soldiers ,completely incompetent,  to stand guard for their country !  Some intel told Taliban Joe said, in so many  mixed salad words that the taliban ,, was no match for the well equipped Afghani forces.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Afghani soldiers sold their  US and allied supplied equipment to those  terrorists  over there.

Edited August 21, 2021 by riclag

[Alavan]

11 hours ago, 9S_ said:

 

 

South Vietnamese was actually winning these with US support. Joe ended that. Thanks Joe!

Strong stuff you are smoking. Where did you find that?

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, riclag said:

I heard on the news that once the Afghan military got paid a while back, 40 percent of them blew Dodge and went back to their villages!

I also watched a clip of a American soldier saying  that the military were boy scouts masquerading as soldiers ,completely incompetent,  to stand guard for their country !  Some intel told Taliban Joe said, in so many  mixed salad words that the taliban ,, was no match for the well equipped Afghani forces.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Afghani soldiers sold their  US and allied supplied equipment to those  terrorists  over there.

Couldn't agree more riclag mate on paper 300'000 strong about 40% AWOL apart from some of their SF units not fit for purpose.

US supplied them with loads of the old war stock M16/M4 type rifles but they were to complex for them to strip and assemble and carry out stoppage drills all their equipment was in bad order from vehicles to radios and weapons as they had no system of maintenance or kit and equipment husbandry. 

Any joint OP's we carried out with them best thing was to keep hounding them to keep their weapons pointing forward as they were prone to having negligent discharges ND's keep behind them and give them Fire Support.

The Taliban are parading with those captured weapons now as a PR thing for the cameras but they will end up selling them in the gun markets in Pakistan before long.

[9S_]

11 minutes ago, Alavan said:

Strong stuff you are smoking. Where did you find that?

When Nixon withdrew from the Vietnam war, South Vietnam still had a functioning army and was able to defend itself from the North Vietnamese with vital aid from the US. 
Not until Ford was elected and the advice of Joe Biden did the US end it’s aid to the South Vietnamese, did the South Vietnamese start to lose. The fact that Saigon did not fall well after the US withdrawal is testament in the South’s ability to defend against the North. Until Joe Biden came along (and won’t be the last). 
 

It was also Joe Biden who opposed evacuation of civilians in Saigon and opposed their resettlement in the US. Heartless Joe. 
 

 

 

[riclag]

2 hours ago, 9S_ said:

It was also Joe Biden who opposed evacuation of civilians in Saigon and opposed their resettlement in the US. Heartless Joe. 

Not that he was any better at dealing with the jihadist ,Obama once said of biden

“Don’t underestimate Joe’s ability to f--k  things up.” !

I hope the Gop wins the house in 2022,  what went around for the past admin is gonna come around for this candidate for impeachment !

[Stonker]

6 hours ago, Fester said:

Six months was enough time to organize a far, far better solution than this.

Agreed 100% - but twenty years was even more time, but nobody did!

I'm not defending Biden, just pointing out that no-one else did anything.

6 hours ago, Fester said:

 

 ... if Bagram had not been given up, that option would have been far easier to take up and the soldiers helping these people out would have been far more comfortable than the Paras seem to be in Kabul now.    

 

Far easier to take up, yes, and the soldiers may

 

 have been more comfortable, but that would hardly make it more successful.

The option of civilian flights would be gone but, more importantly, it would be far easier for the Taliban to seal it off and prevent access, as they're doing in Kabul, making the whole evacuation process a non-starter.

7 hours ago, Fester said:

I just hope they can get everyone out soon and safely

I hope I win the lottery - but I'm not basing any plans on it!

[Stonker]

4 hours ago, 23RD said:

Definitely when you think how The British closed down Camp Bastion in 140 days with a fraction of the resources of The US Military.

Well, the Brits also had a fraction of the equipment - not to mention a fraction of the Subway's and McD's.

Hardly a valid comparison, as the US military doesn't travel light.

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, 9S_ said:

When Nixon withdrew from the Vietnam war, South Vietnam still had a functioning army and was able to defend itself from the North Vietnamese with vital aid from the US. 
Not until Ford was elected and the advice of Joe Biden did the US end it’s aid to the South Vietnamese, did the South Vietnamese start to lose. The fact that Saigon did not fall well after the US withdrawal is testament in the South’s ability to defend against the North. Until Joe Biden came along (and won’t be the last). 
 

It was also Joe Biden who opposed evacuation of civilians in Saigon and opposed their resettlement in the US. Heartless Joe. 
 

Yes and no.

Despite the similarity over twenty years of conflict, you can't really compare the ARVN and the ANA in terms of cohesion, size, training, capability and willingness to fight - one very much was and one very much wasn't.

 

It's also wrong to blame Ford for giving in to "advice" on ARVN funding, as he repeatedly tried to get extra funding but Congress (Democrat led) refused.

 

FWIW, though, I agree with you 100% about the Vietnamese refugees but it wasn't just the administration in 1975 that was "heartless".  I was responsible for a couple of boatloads of Vietnamese refugees nearly a decade later, one economic and one political who had had a terrible time with pirates in the South China Seas, administering them and liaising with the various agencies, and the US just didn't want to know.

[Fester]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

Agreed 100% - but twenty years was even more time, but nobody did!

I'm not defending Biden, just pointing out that no-one else did anything.

Far easier to take up, yes, and the soldiers may

 have been more comfortable, but that would c

The option of civilian flights would be gone but, more importantly, it would be far easier for the Taliban to seal it off and prevent access, as they're doing in Kabul, making the whole evacuation process a non-starter.

I hope I win the lottery - but I'm not basing any plans on it!

Why would civilian flights not be an option from Bagram?

 

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Fester

[PBS]

15 hours ago, 9S_ said:

As at least 10,000 American lives and nearly 15,000+ Afghan allies are stranded behind Taliban lines Joe Biden goes on vacation again 

He was on vacation the week before Afghanistan fell

He was on vacation the weekend Afghanistan fell

He was still on vacation 2 days after Afghanistan fell

He wanted to go on vacation again for the weekend and for Joe, the weekend starts on Thursday, then postponed to leave on Friday. 

Instead of working he’s going on vacation

For a man without moral or ethics as you say, Trump stayed up all night to bring and console Ottos family as they welcome the body of Otto Warmbier at 2:00am. 
 

Can Biden even stay at least to 2:00am

trump spent 285 days visiting golf venues which cost the US tax payer approx $115,000,000, plus numerous visits to his place in Florida, also costing the tax payer many millions of dollars. trump abused use of tax payers funds for an extraordinary number of days on self indulgent activities.

trump used the power of his Office to abuse and insult members of the public who disagreed with him. In summary whatever goodness trump managed to achieve, his overall behaviour and actions utterly drowned them.

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, Fester said:

Why would civilian flights not be an option from Bagram?

IIRC it's only been used by civilian cargo flights, not passenger flights, but it also has minefields within 500 metres of the runway which an aircraft could end up in if it overshoots which isn't acceptable for civilians, particularly if the pilots aren't familiar with it.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Stonker said:

Well, the Brits also had a fraction of the equipment - not to mention a fraction of the Subway's and McD's.

Hardly a valid comparison, as the US military doesn't travel light.

Having spent considerable time in Camp Bastion 1 & 2 as well as visited Camp Leatherneck & Shorabak next door on numerous occasions Walter.

Yes it was a feat to strip down packed and back load the equipment from Camp Bastion in 140 days but nothing I wouldn't expect from our outstanding professionals Walter.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Guest

[Faraday]

Blair has decided to chip in...

Seeing as he & Bushbaby started the whole thing, it's more than disingenuous. 

"The former prime minister, who took the UK to war in the country 20 years ago, called the pull out ‘tragic, dangerous and unnecessary’, adding that the move had ‘every Jihadist group round the world cheering’."

Perhaps Tony would like to convert to Islam & help...

https://metro.co.uk/2021/08/21/tony-blair-slams-joe-bidens-imbecilic-decision-to-leave-afghanistan-15130842/

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, Fester said:

Why would civilian flights not be an option from Bagram?

 

2 hours ago, Stonker said:

IIRC it's only been used by civilian cargo flights, not passenger flights, but it also has minefields within 500 metres of the runway which an aircraft could end up in if it overshoots which isn't acceptable for civilians, particularly if the pilots aren't familiar with it.

Just to elaborate a bit now I've finished my morning constitutional, and maybe pre-empt a question, the minefield issue isn't insurmountable as like anything else it could be addressed given enough forethought and planning, and the minefields cleared, but that would lead on to more issues.

First, unless already cleared that would take time and lead into winter, which makes the runway that much more difficult for civilian aircrews unfamiliar with it.

Secondly, and more importantly, the minefields are part of the base security so if cleared they'd have to be replaced with construction and further manpower which would negate any benefits.

 

Most importantly, though, while Bagram is more secure that's a double-edged sword and if the Taliban wanted to block civilian access from would-be departing Afghans and Westerners alike, as they've reportedly started to do, they could do so far more easily around Bagram, from 10 or 20 kms away, than they could around Kabul airport, and you'd be playing right into their hands.

You could assemble what one poster suggested should be the biggest fleet of C-17s the world's ever seen, but if there's no one to get on them as they can't get there you may as well send a bicycle.

 

TBH, I'm a bit surprised others here with allegedly more recent on the ground military knowledge haven't pointed this out as it has to be common knowledge, but I suppose if you don't know the difference between "ops" (operations) and "OPs" (observation posts) that shouldn't have come as a surprise.

[Stonker]

37 minutes ago, Stonker said:

if the Taliban wanted to block civilian access from would-be departing Afghans and Westerners alike, as they've reportedly started to do,

In hindsight, I'm a bit surprised this hasn't been reported more in the US / UK press as it was reported on DW that a German was shot trying to get to the airport, as it was on France 24, and that access was being blocked.

A cynic might think that the US and UK are trying to downplay it to get a positive spin ... or even that they're happy to evacuate less refugees ...