News Forum - A British musician bangs drums of discontent after breaking leg in Thailand

[cowslip]

there is an AESEAN agreement and I there have been other policies too.....

in Thailand as a tourist or visitor it is necessary to have either a Thai driving licence or a valid foreign driving licence with a photograph. The foreign licence must either be in English, or be accompanied by an official translation into English or Thai. The licence needs to have been issued by a country that has a treaty with the Thai government allowing the mutual acceptance of driving licences.  Most countries, including Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the UK and the USA have this agreement with Thailand under the 1949 Geneva Convention on Road Traffic or the 1968 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic. 

The argument for the UK licence has always been that it is in English and has a photo - and is a national licence.

 

The practicality has always been that the average Jo RTP officer can't read English has no training in the law and as been told to ask ALL foreigners for an IDP

Edited December 12, 2022 by cowslip

[Bluesofa]

10 hours ago, Faz said:

It's mandatory to show your passport at both public and private hospitals, and they can hold a copy.
It's illegal for them to hold your Passport, set against settling your bill

That's one of the reasons I always have a copy of my passport on my phone and also a photocopy in my wallet, but always keep my passport safe at home.
Last time I was admitted to hospital after an accident (a government hospital, not a private one) I used my hospital card. It was accepted with no query. That card was originally registered using my pink Thai ID, not my passport.

I do remember a few years ago, the-then head of immigration was quoted as saying he understood foreigners living here were reluctant to carry their passport with them constantly, and said that a copy was generally acceptable.

[Ivo_Shandor]

6 hours ago, cowslip said:

there is an AESEAN agreement and I there have been other policies too.....

in Thailand as a tourist or visitor it is necessary to have either a Thai driving licence or a valid foreign driving licence with a photograph. The foreign licence must either be in English, or be accompanied by an official translation into English or Thai. The licence needs to have been issued by a country that has a treaty with the Thai government allowing the mutual acceptance of driving licences.  Most countries, including Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the UK and the USA have this agreement with Thailand under the 1949 Geneva Convention on Road Traffic or the 1968 Vienna Convention on Road Traffic. 

The Vienna ('68), Geneva ('49), and Paris ('26) Conventions do not put agreement on reciprocal recognization of domestic driving licences. They allow for the existence of a booklet termed International Driving Permit, which fundamentally act as a translation document of such license in multiple languages, and it is internationally recognized, in its declinations (Geneva or Vienna depending on the convention acceptance of such country) by the signatoriy parts.

The English language of a license accepted locally is an urban legend perpetuated by people who do not know the content of such conventions, or the Thai regulations. Given that IDP translates also in English, the common (wrong) thought is that since the UK/US/AU licenses are already in English, they do not require to be translated again. Nevertheless, such licenses are not recognized under Thai law, regardless of their language, so it is a legal requirement to have an IDP. If one choose to dismiss this, it's up to the driver then to face legal consequences in case of accidents. Also, IDP cannot be used for their entire validity, as regulations of the DLT mandates that a IDP allows one to drive up to 3 monts with a non-immigrant visa (which is fairly reasonable given that such visas last 3 months and then have to be extended, therefore requiring the person to get the local document).

6 hours ago, cowslip said:

The argument for the UK licence has always been that it is in English and has a photo - and is a national licence.

That is an erroneous argument given that no English-language driving licensses are recognized under any of the Thai Acts regulating licenses for driving vehicles. The word "English" is not even mentioned in such acts. The practice of having a UK or whatsoever license written in English with a photo is irrelevant (see above). This is not what both local law and international conventions mandate.

6 hours ago, cowslip said:

The practicality has always been that the average Jo RTP officer can't read English has no training in the law and as been told to ask ALL foreigners for an IDP

This is your personal opinion. If you have ever being stopped by an RTP officer, for example in Bangkok, you surely know they ask you for your license. If you cannot produce a Thai license, you have to produce the foreign license plus IDP (that has a photo in it). If they close an eye on the IDP, you're just lucky.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Ivo_Shandor

[Faz]

10 hours ago, cowslip said:

What is that procedure?

They report your case to Immigration (hence the copy of your passport), who can stop you on departure.

10 hours ago, cowslip said:

It is illegal to give you passport  to anyone as deposit etc as it is the property of your government.

however are you saying that hospitals have NEVER taken a passport?

No, private hospitals have taken passports as a means to ensure the bill is paid, but it's illegal and if challenged they must return it or face charges.

[Faz]

1 hour ago, Ivo_Shandor said:

Also, IDP cannot be used for their entire validity, as regulations of the DLT mandates that a IDP allows one to drive up to 3 monts with a non-immigrant visa (which is fairly reasonable given that such visas last 3 months and then have to be extended, therefore requiring the person to get the local document).

Do you have a link to these DLT regulations that mandates an IDP is only valid for 3 months with a Non Immigrant visa.
Why then will the DLT issue a 2-year licence to tourists?
Non Immigrant status is only required for the 5-year licence.
The DLT also accepts foreign licences in English (without an IDP) to apply for an initial 2-year licence.
Licences in other than English must be translated and certified by their Embassy.

https://www.dlt.go.th/en/renew-license/

[cowslip]

11 hours ago, Ivo_Shandor said:

The Vienna ('68), Geneva ('49), and Paris ('26) Conventions do not put agreement on reciprocal recognization of domestic driving licences. They allow for the existence of a booklet termed International Driving Permit, which fundamentally act as a translation document of such license in multiple languages, and it is internationally recognized, in its declinations (Geneva or Vienna depending on the convention acceptance of such country) by the signatoriy parts.

The English language of a license accepted locally is an urban legend perpetuated by people who do not know the content of such conventions, or the Thai regulations. Given that IDP translates also in English, the common (wrong) thought is that since the UK/US/AU licenses are already in English, they do not require to be translated again. Nevertheless, such licenses are not recognized under Thai law, regardless of their language, so it is a legal requirement to have an IDP. If one choose to dismiss this, it's up to the driver then to face legal consequences in case of accidents. Also, IDP cannot be used for their entire validity, as regulations of the DLT mandates that a IDP allows one to drive up to 3 monts with a non-immigrant visa (which is fairly reasonable given that such visas last 3 months and then have to be extended, therefore requiring the person to get the local document).

That is an erroneous argument given that no English-language driving licensses are recognized under any of the Thai Acts regulating licenses for driving vehicles. The word "English" is not even mentioned in such acts. The practice of having a UK or whatsoever license written in English with a photo is irrelevant (see above). This is not what both local law and international conventions mandate.

This is your personal opinion. If you have ever being stopped by an RTP officer, for example in Bangkok, you surely know they ask you for your license. If you cannot produce a Thai license, you have to produce the foreign license plus IDP (that has a photo in it). If they close an eye on the IDP, you're just lucky.

 

After over 20 years driving in Thailand, I'm familiar with being stopped by the police.

Thailand only ratified the Vienna agreement 2 years ago -I don't think they ever ratified a Geneva convention.

 

English is specifically mentioned in the Vienna convention re IDP.

 

[cowslip]

10 hours ago, Faz said:

Do you have a link to these DLT regulations that mandates an IDP is only valid for 3 months with a Non Immigrant visa.
Why then will the DLT issue a 2-year licence to tourists?
Non Immigrant status is only required for the 5-year licence.
The DLT also accepts foreign licences in English (without an IDP) to apply for an initial 2-year licence.
Licences in other than English must be translated and certified by their Embassy.

https://www.dlt.go.th/en/renew-license/

You need to consult the insurance companies.

You'll find also a law that states long-term stayers in Thailand require a Thai driving licence.

Edited December 13, 2022 by cowslip

[cowslip]

Be aware that the kind of IDP - which treaty it elates to will vary depending on which country you are visiting.

For Thailand (and Vietnam) you need the 1968 IDP. (3 years) However for Laos, Malaysia and Cambodia, you need to one year 1949 IDP.

Strangely enough I recently saw a 5 yr IDP issued in Thailand. Not sure where this applies.

[Skip]

On 12/7/2022 at 10:32 PM, Vigo said:

Rubbish. Insurers most certainly do pay put.It is called a loss ratio and is documented for public companies.

If you do not understand  how insurance works, then educate yourself. It is not an opinion when you make a statement like yours.

Your asking poolie to educate himself... good luck with that

[Faz]

3 hours ago, cowslip said:

Strangely enough I recently saw a 5 yr IDP issued in Thailand. Not sure where this applies.

For one, driving in the UK on a Thai driving licence.

[Bluesofa]

1 hour ago, Faz said:

For one, driving in the UK on a Thai driving licence.

I've seen some UK police documentaries. I remember them telling foreign motorists who they'd stopped that you can only use an IDP in the UK for one year. After that you need to apply for a UK licence.

I suppose the only way you could make use of a 5 year IDP in the UK would be to leave the UK after a year, then re-enter again a day later to start the one-year-clock again.

[cowslip]

8 hours ago, Faz said:

For one, driving in the UK on a Thai driving licence.

I don't know which treaty provides for that. - the Vienna states 3 yrs max

[Soidog]

On 12/12/2022 at 5:00 PM, cowslip said:

The practicality has always been that the average Jo RTP officer can't read English has no training in the law and as been told to ask ALL foreigners for an IDP

I think this may be the problem. However, to make life easier, obtaining an IDP is simple and cheap enough. A friend of mine got one from the U.K. and the post office forgot to put the date on the front. He’s had the same IDP for 4 years now! The cost is as little as £6-£7 depending on where you get it from. If you are a long term stayer on a Non-O or similar visa then the right answer is to obtain a Thai driving license.  My understanding is that you can’t get a Thai license if you hold a Tourist Visa. Not unless you do it “under the table”.  

[cowslip]

1 hour ago, Soidog said:

I think this may be the problem. However, to make life easier, obtaining an IDP is simple and cheap enough. A friend of mine got one from the U.K. and the post office forgot to put the date on the front. He’s had the same IDP for 4 years now! The cost is as little as £6-£7 depending on where you get it from. If you are a long term stayer on a Non-O or similar visa then the right answer is to obtain a Thai driving license.  My understanding is that you can’t get a Thai license if you hold a Tourist Visa. Not unless you do it “under the table”.  

Remember, an IDP is only valid as long as your home licence - so if that has expired, so has your IDP.

[Soidog]

58 minutes ago, cowslip said:

Remember, an IDP is only valid as long as your home licence - so if that has expired, so has your IDP.

Yes agreed. Part of the application here in the U.K. is you just present your license for that reason. I’ve had several from the Post Office and most the time they don’t have a clue how to complete the IDP. The last time I got one they stamped the box that said I could drive large trucks and 500cc bikes. None of which my U.K. license allows

[Faz]

3 hours ago, Soidog said:

My understanding is that you can’t get a Thai license if you hold a Tourist Visa. Not unless you do it “under the table”.  

There are many who have obtained the 2-year provincial Thai Driving licence, only having tourist status, entering either VE or on a tourist visa. The DLT will not however issue a 5-year licence unless you have Non Immigrant status.

https://www.dlt.go.th/en/renew-license/

 

IN CASE OF FOREIGNER TEMPORARY (TWO YEAR) DRIVING LICENCE

HAVE TO PREPARE THE DOCUMENTS AS FOLLOW

1. PASSPORT WITH VISA (ORIGINAL AND PHOTO COPY)

2. ORIGINAL PRESENT RESIDENT ADDRESS IN THAILAND CERTIFY FROM EMBASSY / IMMIGRATION BUREAU (VALID FOR 1 YEAR) OR WORK PERMIT (WITH PRESENT RESIDENT ADDRESS IDENTIFIED) AND ORIGINAL PHOTO COPY

3. ORIGINAL MEDICAL CERTIFICATE (5 DISEASES FORM) FROM CLINIC OR HOSPITAL (VALID FOR 1 MONTH)

4. ORIGINAL AND PHOTO COPY OF VALID INTERNATIONAL DRIVING LICENCE (1949 CONVENTION) OR LOCAL DRIVING LICENCE (TRANSLATE IN TO ENGLISH OR THAI LANGUAGE AND CERTIFY BY EMBASSY IF IT ISN'T IN ENGLISH LANGUAGE)

 

 

IN CASE OF FOREIGNER RENEW THAI DRIVING LICENCE [BY YOURSELF]
FROM TWO-YEAR (DRIVING LICENCE) TO FIVE-YEARS DRIVING LICENCE

HAVE TO PREPARE THE DOCUMENTS AS FOLLOW

1. ORIGINAL TWO-YEAR THAI DRIVING LICENCE

2. PASSPORT WITH NON-IMMIGRANT VISA (ORIGINAL AND PHOTO COPY)

3. ORIGINAL PRESENT RESIDENT ADDRESS IN THAILAND CERTIFY FROM EMBASSY / IMMIGRATION BUREAU (VALID FOR 1 YEAR) OR WORK PERMIT (WITH PRESENT RESIDENT ADDRESS IDENTIFIED) AND ORIGINAL PHOTO COPY OR WORK PERMIT WITH ORIGINAL AND PHOTO COPY

4. ORIGINAL MEDICAL CERTIFICATE (5 DISEASES FORM) FROM CLINIC OR HOSPITAL (VALID FOR 1 MONTH)

 

 

 

[Faz]

Another view from Pattaya car rental.
https://pattayarentacar.com/blog/driving-license-in-thailand#:~:text=How long is a International,only weeks away from expiration.

Note; The most important reason to get a driving licence is to show you are competent in driving a car but the second most important reason is to validate your car insurance. If your licence has expired your insurance will not pay out in the event of an accident. We have not come across a situation yet where the insurance will not pay out if you are driving on a foreign licence but it should be noted that getting a Thai driving license is the safest option as far as insurance in concerned.

Thailand were a party to the Geneva convention on road traffic, 1949, which came into force in 1952, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Convention_on_Road_Traffic
but succeeded that by later being a signature to the Vienna convention on road traffic 1968, effective 1977 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Convention_on_Road_Traffic, but didn't ratify it until 2020.
https://treaties.un.org/Pages/ViewDetailsIII.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=XI-B-19&chapter=11&Temp=mtdsg3&lang=en

[Faz]

4 hours ago, cowslip said:

I don't know which treaty provides for that. - the Vienna states 3 yrs max

To be more concise, I should have stated you can legally drive in the UK with a Thai licence and IDP.
I have no idea where a 5-year IDP would be valid for, it may have been an error.

[cowslip]

21 minutes ago, Faz said:

To be more concise, I should have stated you can legally drive in the UK with a Thai licence and IDP.
I have no idea where a 5-year IDP would be valid for, it may have been an error.

I saw and examined the 5 year Thai IDP in the UK - I was surprised when one of my Thai business associates said they had one - they then showed it to me the next day. It was clearly issued by Thai DLT and was clearly for 10 years.

More a reflection of Thai rule of law than anything else.

[cowslip]

1 hour ago, Soidog said:

Yes agreed. Part of the application here in the U.K. is you just present your license for that reason. I’ve had several from the Post Office and most the time they don’t have a clue how to complete the IDP. The last time I got one they stamped the box that said I could drive large trucks and 500cc bikes. None of which my U.K. license allows

Whereas Thailand ratified the Vienna convention in 2020, although they were signatories to the Geneva 1949 Road Traffic convention, I don't think it was ever ratified in Thailand.

the categories are also in graphics on both your home D/L and the IDP - this was agreed under the Vienna convention. so if the two don't correspond it is always possible an observant officer might pick that up.

There is only one M/C category - up to 430 kg - not CC and Thailand doesn't recognise mopeds under the Vienna treaty so the only way you can LEGALLY drive a M?C in Thailand is with a full M/C licence from home - proc=visional is not accepted.

Pattaya ca=r rental have got the right idea - Whatever the law, insurance companies may well not pay out id=f they find any discrepancies regarding IDP - and long term stayers (non-imm visas) require a Thai licence.

 

 

[Faz]

53 minutes ago, cowslip said:

There is only one M/C category - up to 430 kg - not CC a

My UK licence has 4 categories of motorcycles displayed.

When I applied for my Thai car driving licence, they automatically also issued me a motorcycle licence based on seeing the motorcycle categories. That just proves their total lack of knowledge on the law.

[cowslip]

11 minutes ago, Faz said:

My UK licence has 4 categories of motorcycles displayed.

When I applied for my Thai car driving licence, they automatically also issued me a motorcycle licence based on seeing the motorcycle categories. That just proves their total lack of knowledge on the law.

Vienna convention

[Soidog]

26 minutes ago, Faz said:

My UK licence has 4 categories of motorcycles displayed.

When I applied for my Thai car driving licence, they automatically also issued me a motorcycle licence based on seeing the motorcycle categories. That just proves their total lack of knowledge on the law.

Exactly what happened to me Faz. I only applied for the car license as I don’t hold a MC license in the U.K.  As I was about to finish the process, the lady asked me “do you want a motorsi license also? “ Yes was the answer and so I got a Thai car and MC license . I guess with an IDP I can ride a MC in the U.K. now with my Thai license?