News Forum - A British musician bangs drums of discontent after breaking leg in Thailand

[Faz]

6 hours ago, HolyCowCm said:

Regardless of 50cc or 500cc, if the license was not an international license it was invalid on the roads here. Who on gods earth would only have a 50cc license anyway?

There is no 'International licence', only an International Driving permit (IDP)
Holders of a UK car licence can also ride up to a 50cc (moped) without 'L' plates.

Under the Geneva convention, licences in English are perfectly legal to drive in Thailand.
However, don't expect Thai police to be familiar with that, hence an IDP is favourable, which translates the information.

[Faz]

6 hours ago, Poolie said:

Then tell me who is his insurer?

Did they check on his eligibility before they took his money?

Did he advise the Insurer he only had a UK car licence, which permitted him to drive a 50CC moped, but he intended to drive a 125cc motorcycle.
He'd have received an immediate answer in that case.

[Poolie]

I dunno, how could I? My questions are rhetorical, as they can only be.

My beef (if I have one) is with the insurance company.

[Vigo]

7 hours ago, Poolie said:

Then tell me who is his insurer?

Did they check on his eligibility before they took his money?

We do not have his insurance policy wording here, so we won't know.  What I can do is look a typical travel policy and it is obvious what the  insured's obligations are.  The insurance contract sets out the conditions of coverage, i.e. the eligibility, and it is the insured who says, yes, I comply.

Example

 

Scooters/Mopeds/Motorcycles: You are automatically covered, as a rider or passenger, if you hire a scooter, moped or motorcycle 125cc or under during your trip for incidental and recreational use, please note General Exclusion 8b.

 Exclusions

8. Any claim for an incident which happens during the trip that results from:

b) you riding or being a passenger on a scooter, moped or motorcycle:

 ● 125cc or under; unless you wear a crash helmet and, as a rider, you are fully licensed to use such a vehicle in the UK; or

 ● over 125cc; unless this is your mode of transport from the UK and you wear a crash helmet and appropriate protective clothing; and, as a rider, you are fully licensed and insured to use this vehicle in the UK.

 c) you driving any motorised vehicle, unless you are fully licensed to drive such a vehicle in the UK;

 d) you driving or being a passenger in any motorised vehicle unless you have complied with all laws applying to use of that vehicle in the country you are visiting, for example, you must wear a seat belt where this is required by law;

Every auto policy I have seen has the condition that the driver must be legally allowed to drive in the jurisdiction where vehicle operates. Again, the insurer is not obliged to verify, although motor insurers will request driver permit information and will often verify driving records.

Here we have a  travel insurance policy and not an auto policy. The motor coverage is an extension of a non motor policy. If the insurer was obliged to run background verification on all motor coverage extensions, there would be a delay in issuance of policy and the admin costs would add significantly to cost of insurance. It would become unaffordable. Remember too that insurers are not allowed to insure intentional illegal acts and driving a vehicle without a valid license is intentional. Driving while impaired is illegal (Not saying driver here was.). This is why the  insurer does not have to reimburse a vehicle driver for physical damage to the vehicle after crash. Depending on the jurisdiction,  the insurer may still have to pay third party damages.

Why is it so hard to read the insurance policy? Know what you are buying and understand the conditions, Especially the requirement on travel policies that the treatment must be approved first by the insurer. If you don't like the contract wording, self insure.

 

[Poolie]

Yeah I agree that they'll  offer it cheap, but then refuse to pay out on the basis that 'you didn't check the small print.'

[HolyCowCm]

2 hours ago, Faz said:

There is no 'International licence', only an International Driving permit (IDP)
Holders of a UK car licence can also ride up to a 50cc (moped) without 'L' plates.

Under the Geneva convention, licences in English are perfectly legal to drive in Thailand.
However, don't expect Thai police to be familiar with that, hence an IDP is favourable, which translates the information.

And your final point?

[Faz]

2 hours ago, Poolie said:

My beef (if I have one) is with the insurance company.

Why, he didn't have a valid licence to drive a 125cc motorcycle - claim dismissed.

[HolyCowCm]

11 minutes ago, HolyCowCm said:

And your final point?

 

There is no 'International licence', only an International Driving permit (IDP)
Holders of a UK car licence can also ride up to a 50cc (moped) without 'L' plates.

Under the Geneva convention, licences in English are perfectly legal to drive in Thailand.
However, don't expect Thai police to be familiar with that, hence an IDP is favourable, which translates the information.

 

[HolyCowCm]

3 minutes ago, Faz said:

Why, he didn't have a valid licence to drive a 125cc motorcycle - claim dismissed.

Tecnicalties, but here actualy works on a different system. ( Take that many ways - ok)

[HolyCowCm]

Just now, HolyCowCm said:

Tecnicalties, but here actualy works on a different system. ( Take that many ways - ok)

Sorry for mis-spellings

 

 

[HolyCowCm]

5 hours ago, Faz said:

Under the Geneva convention, licences in English are perfectly legal to drive in Thailand.
However, don't expect Thai police to be familiar with that, hence an IDP is favourable, which translates the information.

And if don't even have that then....????? You win....

[Thommo]

16 hours ago, Poolie said:

Then tell me who is his insurer?

Did they check on his eligibility before they took his money?

why would it!  it is  up to the individual to read the T&Cs or and the disclosure document, surely you wouldn't buy insurance without having an understanding on what you are covered for! 

[Faz]

9 hours ago, HolyCowCm said:

Tecnicalties, but here actualy works on a different system. ( Take that many ways - ok)

What system would that be?

If you're not insured, then you foot your own bill.

[HolyCowCm]

16 hours ago, Faz said:

There is no 'International licence', only an International Driving permit (IDP)
Holders of a UK car licence can also ride up to a 50cc (moped) without 'L' plates.

Under the Geneva convention, licences in English are perfectly legal to drive in Thailand.
However, don't expect Thai police to be familiar with that, hence an IDP is favourable, which translates the information.

Ok. So we can say it is a permit to drive legally and not a license as this permit is based on your original home country license. I know you like to use the correct verbiage.. But anyway you want to look at it, Genva conventaion or Zeus throwing a lightnening bolt, Thailand plainly does not recognise any foreing driver license except if you are applying to get a Thai license showing you are licensed in your own country. That is the only thing a home country license makes it easy here. About insurance. The rental business has bottom level bike insurance and it will cover the rider no matter if has a license or not. The license is irrelevant in this matter and is not looked at, but the payout is miniscule. Also if the rider was hit or the accident was caused by someone else then the at fault party or person will have to cover it and more than likely will have a separate settlement of fault having to reach into the pocket will be made by the authorities. Every registered vehicle on the road has insurance. That is what I meant as a different system. There is always some sort of small coverage. Had two friends who had accidents and had the bike insurance cover a tiny portion of the hospital. As for his travel insurance, bikes and that never end up favorable. I did not know that 50cc mopeds are covered under a standard license. Not in the US.

What I don't get is how this kids bill sky rocketed to over 680k. Seems like the hospital is gouging him a bit. Oh Ok, now I get it, the xray shows it is from Chiang Mai Ram, but 680k is still over the top.

Anyway, the kid had an accident and now is in a rock and a hard place. I don't feel sorry for him as he did it to himself.

[Faz]

1 hour ago, HolyCowCm said:

Genva conventaion or Zeus throwing a lightnening bolt, Thailand plainly does not recognise any foreing driver license except if you are applying to get a Thai license showing you are licensed in your own country. That is the only thing a home country license makes it easy here.

 

Is Driving with A U.K License Valid in Thailand?

In leasing or driving a car in Thailand as a tourist, it is vital to have a Thai driving license or a valid foreign driver’s card with a photograph. U.K nationals holding a valid U.K driving license in Thailand can operate a four-wheel vehicle in the state. However, despite being part of the 1949 Geneva Convention on Road Traffic, it is still necessary to secure an IDP for easiness and confidence when hitting this country’s highways.

https://internationaldriversassociation.com/thailand-driving-guide/

1 hour ago, HolyCowCm said:

About insurance. The rental business has bottom level bike insurance and it will cover the rider no matter if has a license or not. The license is irrelevant in this matter and is not looked at, but the payout is miniscule.

Thai compulsory Insurance does not require the driver to have a valid licence, but it only covers third parties.
No third party was involved, he fell off the motorcycle.
Compulsory Insurance also doesn't cover motorcycle 'hire', even voluntary doesn't cover vehicles for 'hire', special Insurance is required for that.
I would assume the hirer in this case only had the compulsory Insurance cover, hence the rider couldn't claim on that either.

 

[cowslip]

Thailand doesn't recognise the definition of "moped" in the Vienna Traffic convention, it only has one category and that is a "full m/c/ licence"

It looks s if this guy despite post after post on Thai forums about IDPs and insurance decided it didn't apply to him.

I'm sorry for his pain but it does serve as a warning to others and emphasises the need for correct vehicle licences if t=you are going to rent and also how the Thai healthcare system is not only very poor in emergencies but also very expensive. They will do the bare minimum of treatment until they know they are going to be paid.

[cowslip]

13 hours ago, Faz said:

Is Driving with A U.K License Valid in Thailand?

In leasing or driving a car in Thailand as a tourist, it is vital to have a Thai driving license or a valid foreign driver’s card with a photograph. U.K nationals holding a valid U.K driving license in Thailand can operate a four-wheel vehicle in the state. However, despite being part of the 1949 Geneva Convention on Road Traffic, it is still necessary to secure an IDP for easiness and confidence when hitting this country’s highways.

https://internationaldriversassociation.com/thailand-driving-guide/

Thai compulsory Insurance does not require the driver to have a valid licence, but it only covers third parties.
No third party was involved, he fell off the motorcycle.
Compulsory Insurance also doesn't cover motorcycle 'hire', even voluntary doesn't cover vehicles for 'hire', special Insurance is required for that.
I would assume the hirer in this case only had the compulsory Insurance cover, hence the rider couldn't claim on that either.

Thailand has not ratified the Geneva convention  but it has ratified the 1968 Vienna convention but not until 2020.

to rent a motorbike of any size in Thailand you need a FULL UK m/c licence and now it is best if that is accompanied by an IDP - which shows what you are qualified to drive.

the basic insurance on a moped includes emergency first responder cover but after that, you are on your own and it depends on you own cover or any extra cover that came with the rental...this varies from renter to renter.

 

As the driver didn't have a licence for M/Cs it is unlikely that any insurance company would have covered him - even the compulsory basic cover that comes with all taxed M/Cs.

[cowslip]

Compulsory insurance - I don't know if not having a licance would affect this.

 

 

1. Compulsory Motorcycle Insurance in Thailand

Compulsory Motorcycle Insurance, also known as “Por Ror Bor” is mandatory insurance required by law for all motor vehicles within Thailand. This is to provide insurance coverage for everyone affected by motorcycle accidents, regardless of whether the person is a driver, a passenger, or a pedestrian. In the cases that involve a loss of life or body parts or health damage including the deceased person’s heir will also be covered, in the case of death.

Basic insurance coverage

If there is an accident, the driver can claim compensation if injured, but will not cover the motorcycle damage. The details are as followings:

• Death, loss of vital organ, and permanent disability = up to ฿35,000
• Medical expenses = up to ฿30,000

Coverage by which the driver is not at fault

Compensation can be claimed as following details:

• Death and permanent disability = up to ฿300,000
• Medical expenses = up to ฿80,000
• Daily compensation = ฿200 per day (up to 20 days) up to ฿4,000
• Loss of 2 body parts = ฿300,000 / loss of 1 body part = ฿250,000 / loss of a finger or more = ฿200,000

 

[MrStretch]

On 12/8/2022 at 11:34 PM, HolyCowCm said:

Technicalities, but here actually works on a different system. ( Take that many ways - ok)

Something that is clearly spelled out isn't a technicality.  However much you think the insurer should pay, there is nothing hidden here, no technicality.  It's in black and white.  Caveat emptor.

[Poolie]

2 hours ago, MrStretch said:

Something that is clearly spelled out isn't a technicality.  However much you think the insurer should pay, there is nothing hidden here, no technicality.  It's in black and white.  Caveat emptor.

Precisely.

[HolyCowCm]

2 hours ago, MrStretch said:

Something that is clearly spelled out isn't a technicality.  However much you think the insurer should pay, there is nothing hidden here, no technicality.  It's in black and white.  Caveat emptor.

Sometimes when you think things are clerarly spelled out over here, they then are not. So with compulsary insurance it does cover the cost of an accident bythe rider even if the motorcylce was rented as I have personaly experienced this several times with friends and talking with the shop. Even with the regime, they use every possible way of tweaking the outcome under the guise of a techincality or a loophole, and that could fall down to interpretation. 

[cowslip]

On 12/8/2022 at 4:32 PM, HolyCowCm said:

There is no 'International licence', only an International Driving permit (IDP)
Holders of a UK car licence can also ride up to a 50cc (moped) without 'L' plates.

Under the Geneva convention, licences in English are perfectly legal to drive in Thailand.
However, don't expect Thai police to be familiar with that, hence an IDP is favourable, which translates the information.

 

The Geneva Convention is now superseded as Thailand has ratified the Vienna convention.

Why is not clear here is whether the compulsory insurance install valid because the driver had no licence.

I can't find definitive answer anywhere.

However even in he was covered by compulsory insurance, he would only be covered for abut 30,000 baht (= £700.00)

 

[cowslip]

On 12/8/2022 at 4:29 PM, Faz said:

Why, he didn't have a valid licence to drive a 125cc motorcycle - claim dismissed.

I can't find anywhere that categorically says his compulsory insurance on the vehicle wasn't valid.

There was probably no extra cover on the vehicle so it is than down to his "holiday" insurance.

Many insurers actually exclude motorcycle hire as "extreme" activities so licence or no licence he would not have been covered. However it is possible if they do offer M/C injury cover in their policy, that the home insurer may decide to offer some cover at their discretion.

I think the main things that visitors to Thailand should be aware of are firstly the situation re-motorcycles; they is no such thing as a moped under Thai law so a full M/C licence is required.

The next thing is to be aware of the situation re first responders and subsequent emergency or longer term treatment - after the initial response, it isn't free - in the end they will run up  large bills and need to have good insurance cover.

[Grumpish]

Cut and paste from my current UK issued travel insurance policy - 

"Your policy provides cover for motorcycling as a rider or
passenger on a machine 125cc or under so long as you wear
a crash helmet and, as a rider, you hold a full UK motorcycle
licence.
No cover exists for motorcycling as a rider or passenger on a
machine over 125cc"

 

[cowslip]

3 minutes ago, Grumpish said:

Cut and paste from my current UK issued travel insurance policy - 

"Your policy provides cover for motorcycling as a rider or
passenger on a machine 125cc or under so long as you wear
a crash helmet and, as a rider, you hold a full UK motorcycle
licence.
No cover exists for motorcycling as a rider or passenger on a
machine over 125cc"

THat's what you'd assume to be the case on a UK policy but I can't find anything about the compulsory cover that comes with the motorbike.