News Forum - Thailand to welcome Russian travellers back this Saturday, really?@!, Ukraine Discussion

[oldschooler]

4 minutes ago, Raugh said:

 

Your point being ?

[Guest1]

56 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

NATO is a proven functioning military force. REAL. 

21 of the 27 EU Members are members of NATO! REAL

56 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

EU Military is Political Paper Wordy Fluff. Fantasy “ Concepts”. 

"Very selective understanding", again, is let you missing the point. Right now it is NOT about a EU-Army, it is about a defense pact IN the EU-treaty!

-"The Treaty of Lisbon strengthens the solidarity between EU countries in dealing with external threats by introducing a mutual defence clause (Article  42(7) of the Treaty on European Union). This clause provides that if an EU country is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other EU countries have an obligation to aid and assist it by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article  51 of the United Nations Charter."

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/glossary/mutual-defence-clause.html#:~:text=This clause provides that if,binding on all EU countries.

56 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Ukraine & Serbia will never be allowed to join NATO or EU. REALITY.

YOUR reality! The official websites of EU and NATO saying not "never", more the opposite!

-In March 2012 Serbia was granted EU candidate status. [...]

On 21 January 2014, the 1st Intergovernmental ConferenceSearch for available translations of the preceding linkEN••• took place, signaling the formal start of Serbia's accession negotiations. So far, Serbia has opened eighteen chapters and provisionally closed two chapters.-

https://ec.europa.eu/neighbourhood-enlargement/enlargement-policy/negotiations-status/serbia_en

"Serbia is deepening its political dialogue and cooperation with NATO on issues of common interest, with an important focus on support for democratic, institutional and defence reforms. While Serbia is pursuing European Union (EU) membership, unlike other Western Balkan partners, it does not aspire to join the Alliance.

Serbia leaders are, that ones right now, NOT wanting to join NATO. The NATO would have started that process long time ago. BECAUSE serbia was seen as close to Putin. And loosen Serbia from Russia would be a loss for Putin!

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_50100.htm

-----

 

Ukraine: EU chief offers Kyiv fast track to membership

https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-eu-chief-offers-kyiv-fast-track-to-membership/a-61409635

(but that was just this week, so to new, perhaps, Oldschooler?)

Since the NATO Summit in Warsaw in July 2016, NATO’s practical support for Ukraine is set out in the Comprehensive Assistance Package (CAP) for Ukraine.

• In June 2017, the Ukrainian Parliament adopted legislation reinstating membership in NATO as a strategic foreign and security policy objective. In 2019, a corresponding amendment to Ukraine’s Constitution entered into force.
• In September 2020, President Volodymyr Zelenskyy approved Ukraine’s new National Security Strategy, which provides for the development of the distinctive partnership with NATO with the aim of membership in NATO.-

 

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_37750.htm 

 

56 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

You know where you can place your immature “Ad Hominem” attacks too.

 

Looking at the posts, Oldschooler, yours and mine, you are probably a lot closer to "immature ad homin" attacks, as I am! It takes one, to know one, methinks! Being old fashioned and stating that yourself, that is not really helping your case in the present, don't you think? 

 

 

[Raugh]

5 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Your point being ?

You come across like a child having a tantrum whilst attempting to mock people posting here as not being "informed adults" which you seem to think you "clearly" are. Take a chill pill Old Dude. This war isn't going anywhere, it will be here for a long time to come.

[Smithydog]

4 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

the Russians left Bucha two weeks ago. Since then, there has been a continuous attraction in Bucha showing corpses to visiting European officials and journalists. But there is no independent investigation.

Why?

the assertion that it is cold at the north pole can be checked at any time with a thermometer.

The Ukrainian government does not want to confirm the assertion that the Russians killed people in Bucha.

Seems your information is out of date.

https://www.voanews.com/a/un-rights-office-gathering-evidence-of-possible-war-crimes-in-bucha-ukraine/6515963.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/human-rights-watch-investigator-searches-for-war-crimes-evidence-in-bucha-137025605760

Best if we wait and see what is found by the experts in forensics and investigating such matters before speculating on any outcome.

[oldschooler]

1 minute ago, KRLMRX said:

Unfortunately for all of us, satellites don't yet record high-definition video. the available photos show us blurry images of corpses and nothing more.

The investigation requires the usual medical examination - when they were killed, with what weapons, whether the corpses were moved (note that in all the photos from Bucha there are corpses with clean white bandages and there are no pools of blood anywhere) and a comparison of this data with the data of satellites and the testimony of witnesses. I'm not a detective, but I think it's obvious.

Participants can be from different countries under the auspices of the UN.

Tell you what …. as this Atrocity done to Ukrainian People on Ukranian Land subject to Ukrainian Law ; why not let UKRAINE decide THEIR process here.

 ICC Hague & UN will hopefully then be invited by Ukraine to perform their own impartial investigations, including review of Ukrainian case, to produce Travel Bans, Asset Seizures, Arrest Warrants, Forced Abductions to ICC for the Guilty ( sorry the “Suspects”). Just as done for Serbian War Criminals 
 

What we really DONT need here is any Russian opinions …..just as the Poles did not ask Russian “ opinion” re. Katyn Wood atrocity. 

[Fester]

44 minutes ago, Alavan said:

Hungary was on the EU road before Orban came to power. The mistake EU made was following Kohl who wanted the expansion to the East.
But those countries mostly don't have the same idea of corruption, democracy, not political independent justice, equal rights to minorities.
Now they say they don't want to follow EU rules (which they agreed on before becomming a member), contraty to EU they say their local constitution goes above EU...
They just want the money from the West and not the obligations

That's probably true of Hungary and most other eastern European countries. However, EU rules change, vetoes disappear and regulations become ever more restrictive, so altering the attractiveness of being an EU member for some countries. It took 43 years of EEC/EC/EU "evolution" before the UK said goodbye, even though most of the damage was done when Heath signed the Treaty of Rome. 

By signaling fast track membership for the Ukraine right now, the EU risks extending the conflict for even longer - a bad move but they just can't help themselves. NATO is watching out for Ukraine, not the EU.

 

[KRLMRX]

19 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

So Zelensky should not honour his dead citizens in person ? Because there might be some secondary political & morale & rage benefit.

Russia gifted him this advantage. Anybody in mortal struggle with Evil would use it.

Cease your joke broken record about “ investigation”. Will not happen at time of Russia’s choosing , be assured. 

it is strange that Zelensky always needs journalists and European officials to honor the dead.

There was no joke in this post.

[vlad]

11 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

Unfortunately for all of us, satellites don't yet record high-definition video. the available photos show us blurry images of corpses and nothing more.

The investigation requires the usual medical examination - when they were killed, with what weapons, whether the corpses were moved (note that in all the photos from Bucha there are corpses with clean white bandages and there are no pools of blood anywhere) and a comparison of this data with the data of satellites and the testimony of witnesses. I'm not a detective, but I think it's obvious.

Participants can be from different countries under the auspices of the UN.

Oh well, you can discover who committed war crimes, Dear Comrade. Yet another mass grave has been discovered this time after Russian forces left the town of Buzova outside of Kiev. Guess what they were all residents of Buzova and were discovered on Saturday night when Ukraine forces were able to enter the Town after Russian forces pulled back. How are you going to explain this one to Comrade and your other friends on here?

[Fester]

32 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

30 million Ukrainian- speakers in western Ukraine. Doubt any are pro- Russian for historical oppression reasons. 13 million Russian - speakers in East Ukraine. Maybe half pro - Russian ? Would be interested to know this Ukraine clearly should have been partitioned pre- independence.

Probably true although the problem today might still exist.

[KRLMRX]

12 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

Seems your information is out of date.

https://www.voanews.com/a/un-rights-office-gathering-evidence-of-possible-war-crimes-in-bucha-ukraine/6515963.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/video/human-rights-watch-investigator-searches-for-war-crimes-evidence-in-bucha-137025605760

Best if we wait and see what is found by the experts in forensics and investigating such matters before speculating on any outcome.

Judging by this information, they are going to do it. I hope they do.

[Guest1]

1 hour ago, Alavan said:

Unfortunately for Russia, in this days you have satelites and drones. Plus survivors. Those people mourning by the graves of their family members are fake also?
OK. Who do you want for that independent investigation? War tribunal? Neutral land?
But will Russia recognise the results of that investigation?

Yes, the drones and the satellites. Even smartphone cams. It seems they have sometimes the same problem with functioning, like so many CCTVs in Thailand: Depending on whom the footage would help.

The drone footage, from the one bombing of Russia, the ASOV drone was just at the right time in the right place to have almost exactly the shelled area in the center of the frame. Very lucky!

And the satellite pictures from the bodies, from when the Russians were still in that location, NO ONE is offering ALL of the pictures from that location, of that day, so that the Tanks/Russians can be identified , too. 

Do you think, Google is just doing Sukhumvit Road, Bangkok, at one day, but Khao San first some weeks later? As long the sats are not looking at ONE specified point of interest, they are doing pictures all around.  And the bodies didn't get noticed the day of the first capture, so ...

Also I still have trouble, believing that there were witnesses of the killings, like mentioned, but NO ONE "talked" about this, or uploaded pictures or videos, to the internet for 3 WEEKS. 

Also the 2 "old russian rockets" at the train station with 4000 possible  victims. 2 rockets, with "supposed cluster ammunition's" kill "only 50+, out of 4000? Google it, the  Tochka-U  has a 70-150m circular error.  So, missing the train station by much more is "very lucky" for the Ukrainians!

Don't get me wrong, ALL OF THIS can happen. But all of this together, imho, that seems to be a bit odd. 

 

[vlad]

3 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

it is strange that Zelensky always needs journalists and European officials to honor the dead.

There was no joke in this post.

It's called Evidence from outsiders Comrade, and the horror that is being witnessed by European head leaders. Have you witnessed fallen troops returning back to Russia Comrade on Russian TV or is that being ignored by Russian TV  and the Moscow times.

[KRLMRX]

14 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Tell you what …. as this Atrocity done to Ukrainian People on Ukranian Land subject to Ukrainian Law ; why not let UKRAINE decide THEIR process here.

 ICC Hague & UN will hopefully then be invited by Ukraine to perform their own impartial investigations, including review of Ukrainian case, to produce Travel Bans, Asset Seizures, Arrest Warrants, Forced Abductions to ICC for the Guilty ( sorry the “Suspects”). Just as done for Serbian War Criminals 
 

What we really DONT need here is any Russian opinions …..just as the Poles did not ask Russian “ opinion” re. Katyn Wood atrocity. 

the verdict of the Ukrainian government is predictable.

If you're not interested in my opinion here, why are you asking me questions here?

[KRLMRX]

13 minutes ago, vlad said:

Oh well, you can discover who committed war crimes, Dear Comrade. Yet another mass grave has been discovered this time after Russian forces left the town of Buzova outside of Kiev. Guess what they were all residents of Buzova and were discovered on Saturday night when Ukraine forces were able to enter the Town after Russian forces pulled back. How are you going to explain this one to Comrade and your other friends on here?

I will explain it also - civilians die in any war. If you want to know the cause of their death - you need to investigate, there is no other way.

[KRLMRX]

12 minutes ago, Fester said:

Probably true although the problem today might still exist.

According to a survey conducted in 2006-2007 by Gallup, 83% of respondents preferred to conduct Gallup interviews in Russian.  

The absolute majority of Ukrainians preferred to speak Russian until 2014, although they also knew Ukrainian.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Ukraine

 

[Raugh]

7 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

If you're not interested in my opinion here, why are you asking me questions here?

Narcissism? Ego? Maybe just plain ol' crankiness? I don't know, but i've noticed quite a few of them surfacing on various platforms.

Some people seem to get addicted to the rage they feel as they argue over relatively unimportant details regarding one topic or another. Forum Trolls like these type of people as they are bread and butter for stoking the fires so to speak. These rage posters get all uptight and aggressive if anyone deigns to disagree with their position and is too stupid to see how wrong they are. Don't worry KRL it's not you

[Guest1]

This picture is raising questions, isn't it?

These bodies in the bags, are that bodies just found? There was no bombing just before the "Head" of EU has arrived there, so where are they coming from? They talking about bodies in the road for over a week, now. And they are still laying around, waiting to get in a bag, to give every politician a photo op? This picture looks so staged to me!

[Guest1]

40 minutes ago, vlad said:

Oh well, you can discover who committed war crimes, Dear Comrade. Yet another mass grave has been discovered this time after Russian forces left the town of Buzova outside of Kiev. Guess what they were all residents of Buzova and were discovered on Saturday night when Ukraine forces were able to enter the Town after Russian forces pulled back. How are you going to explain this one to Comrade and your other friends on here?

On one hand, the Mariupol Mayor is claiming that the Russians are using Mobil crematories, to hide their crimes (when there is no proof to find, perhaps?)

"In one of the creepiest allegations to emerge from the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the Kremlin is being accused by Ukrainian officials of using "mobile crematoriums" to incinerate dead civilians in a deliberate effort to cover-up alleged war crimes in the hard-hit city of Mariupol."

https://abcnews.go.com/International/russia-accused-mobile-crematoriums-incinerate-civilians-mariupol/story?id=83932376

On the other hand, the Russians just seem not to have enough of these units? Or did not think, to use them everywhere else?

I think there is a tactic behind, the "spectator" should not be able to know, what or what not to believe. So, in the end,  he/she just goes with the mainstream!

 

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

Did you notice the red bits on the map?  How do you think the Russians got control there? Teleported in and are now sitting idle, demoralized, hungry, nearly out of ammo awaiting their inevitable fate While the Ukrainian forces, that have lost “surprisingly” minimal troops and tanks, advance. Put down the pipe. The northern areas show reclaimed Ukrainian area because the Russians have pulled or been pushed back. Did you even read the Wikipedia page on Mariupol? How can the Russians be forcibly evacuating civilians if they do not have control? And why would they if they are being forced back. 

Oh so you admit the Russians are forcibly evacuating civilians. Thats interesting. Will that be yet another war crime to add to the ever expanding list? And yes. Russian thugs will have gained control over some areas of the city but its still holding out by all accounts so your claim it had fallen is wrong.

Those red areas were established early on in the conflict. Tell me why did those red areas not keep on expanding? Oh yes. Its because the Ukrainians stopped them and have now started to push them back.

Evidently you have little understanding of warfare. When you have a land border with an invading country you do not try and stop them right on the border. Thats gonna get you spanked. Their supplies are readily available and their artillery/support can operate from safety.

What you do is give ground. Extend them out of their safe zones in into your own pre determined defense lines. Their supply lines are now vulnerable to small groups left behind with the sole job of disrupting them. Roads can be mined. Bridges destroyed. Convoys ambushed. 

So what you end up with is your spearhead units now engaged with the defenders on ground they chose while you are unable to keep them sufficiently supplied.  

BTW make one more personal insult towards me and you will be the VERY first person on this forum I have put on the ignore list. If you cannot hold a reasonable debate then dont bother.

[Rookiescot]

10 minutes ago, Guest1 said:

This picture is raising questions, isn't it?

These bodies in the bags, are that bodies just found? There was no bombing just before the "Head" of EU has arrived there, so where are they coming from? They talking about bodies in the road for over a week, now. And they are still laying around, waiting to get in a bag, to give every politician a photo op? This picture looks so staged to me!

They are coming from the mass graves they are excavating.

But you already knew that.

[Rookiescot]

3 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

On April 2, the Ukrainian government has already confirmed the withdrawal of Russian troops from the Kiev region, where Bucha is located.

https://www.euronews.com/2022/04/02/russian-troops-pull-back-from-areas-near-kyiv-ukrainian-officials-say

The Russian Defense Ministry announced the withdrawal at the end of March.

I do not know why they left the corpses of the soldiers and have not seen any information about it.

Bucha is not mention once in that article. It just says areas outside Kyiv.

And you still have not answered my question. If Russian thugs had already fled the area why did they leave their own dead behind?

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, Poolie said:

Anybody take any notice of the media anymore? Not me but you can tell the media whores a mile away, bless 'em.

No we understand the CCP gives you your understanding of current world events and you post accordingly.

Tell me something Poolie. Do you, personally, condemn the illegal invasion of the Ukraine?

[Fanta]

27 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Oh so you admit the Russians are forcibly evacuating civilians. Thats interesting. Will that be yet another war crime to add to the ever expanding list? And yes. Russian thugs will have gained control over some areas of the city but its still holding out by all accounts so your claim it had fallen is wrong.

Those red areas were established early on in the conflict. Tell me why did those red areas not keep on expanding? Oh yes. Its because the Ukrainians stopped them and have now started to push them back.

Evidently you have little understanding of warfare. When you have a land border with an invading country you do not try and stop them right on the border. Thats gonna get you spanked. Their supplies are readily available and their artillery/support can operate from safety.

What you do is give ground. Extend them out of their safe zones in into your own pre determined defense lines. Their supply lines are now vulnerable to small groups left behind with the sole job of disrupting them. Roads can be mined. Bridges destroyed. Convoys ambushed. 

So what you end up with is your spearhead units now engaged with the defenders on ground they chose while you are unable to keep them sufficiently supplied.  

BTW make one more personal insult towards me and you will be the VERY first person on this forum I have put on the ignore list. If you cannot hold a reasonable debate then dont bother.

We can trade accusations of perceived personal insults all day. Your post, on the other hand, is an a insult to logic and the dead civilians in Mariupol. Or is it an accusation that the Ukrainian military left their own citizens inside “give ground” in the full knowledge that a battle would be fought in city streets? 

 

[Rookiescot]

12 minutes ago, Fanta said:

We can trade accusations of perceived personal insults all day. Your post, on the other hand, is an a insult to logic and the dead civilians in Mariupol. Or is it an accusation that the Ukrainian military left their own citizens inside “give ground” in the full knowledge that a battle would be fought in city streets? 

Its an insult to logic is it?

OK lets have your take on how the Ukrainians should have defended their country then.

[Alavan]

1 hour ago, Guest1 said:

21 of the 27 EU Members are members of NATO! REAL

There are EU members in NATO, and there are NATO members not in EU.

One is a murual defense organisation, the other is more economic and on coöperation.