News Forum - UKRAINE UPDATES: Russia relents, Ukraine offers concessions at Turkey peace talks; Amnesty decries Russian war crimes

[Marble-eye]

Just now, Fanta said:

You’re welcome. The rest of your first paragraph is unclear. Anyway, the most obvious part of a discussion is to discuss the issues that are not agreed upon. The alternative is one party repeating the same fact again and again while the other party says “Yeah, agreed. And?” and around and around they go. 

But you never agree on anything, I think it would be very fair to say that anyone reading your posts could be forgiven for thinking that you appear to be very pro Putin and if we're not careful we will just end up with dialogue you want to hear.

 

[Fanta]

3 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

I posted a second link to claims you made in your reply. Namely that it was only ONE bank mentioned in my original link.

I told you to read the original link again because you had simply quoted a small part of the article, out of context, in order to justify your position.

Look I have provided you with plenty of evidence that YOUR claim China was helping Russia as being wrong.

How about YOU provide evidence that China is helping Russia.

You claimed Chinese banks were not lending to Russia. Proven false TWICE by your very own links.!
Winnie the Pooh has not condemned the Russian invasion or sanctioned Russia. China is Russia’s biggest trade partner. Isn’t that enough proof to you? and they signed the agreement already posted to support each other in regards to disputes arising from common regions (aka Taiwan and Ukraine). And if I could provide evidence then Zelenskyy would blow me on international TV while Winnie and Putin denied it ever happened. Secret stuff you see and if Biden found out then he’d have a new problem on his hands. 

[Rookiescot]

Just now, Fanta said:

You claimed Chinese banks were not lending to Russia. Proven false TWICE by your very own links.!
Winnie the Pooh has not condemned the Russian invasion or sanctioned Russia. China is Russia’s biggest trade partner. Isn’t that enough proof to you? and they signed the agreement already posted to support each other in regards to disputes arising from common regions (aka Taiwan and Ukraine). And if I could provide evidence then Zelenskyy would blow me on international TV while Winnie and Putin denied it ever happened. Secret stuff you see and if Biden found out then he’d have a new problem on his hands. 

Oh this is good stuff. So now the "evidence" for your claims is "secret".

[Fanta]

12 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Oh this is good stuff. So now the "evidence" for your claims is "secret".

Has China cut off exports to Russia? No. Have China cut off Russian imports? No. Frozen Russian funds? No. Seized Russian assets? No. Condemned the war? No. Implemented sanctions? No. Many countries have done that but not China. And that is not support? If you think China is sitting on the fence then you are partially right but it is obvious which way they are leaning and money speaks louder than words. 

[Fanta]

29 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

But you never agree on anything, I think it would be very fair to say that anyone reading your posts could be forgiven for thinking that you appear to be very pro Putin and if we're not careful we will just end up with dialogue you want to hear.

So call me out on it. Whenever I debunk a claim it is not acknowledged by the poster and laughed at by the same 3 people. And if no-one questioned the Western media claims and preconceived ideas that people have then this thread, and many like it, would be bereft of any meaningful discussion or education. Just a steady litany of “Ukraine will win, Putin bad” while no-one has their views challenged or learns a God damn thing. Today I learned from EdwardIV why the US deficit is not such a big deal. And you?

[Rookiescot]

5 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Has China cut off exports to Russia? No. Have China cut off Russian imports? No. Frozen Russian funds? No. Seized Russian assets? No. Condemned the war? No. Implemented sanctions? No. Many countries have done that but not China. And that is not support? If you think China is sitting on the fence then you are partially right but it is obvious which way they are leaning and money speaks louder than words. 

Again you confusing China exploiting the situation for its own benefit as somehow being help.

I gave you links demonstrating why your claim that things were "business as usual" is wrong.

Giving credit in Yuan and not dollars benefits who?

China only leans one way and thats to the benefit of itself.

But there is no actual support from China for Czar Putin. Abstaining at the UN. No credit in dollars. No buying up of Russian bonds to support the ruble and definitely no suppling weapons.

 

[Marble-eye]

1 minute ago, Fanta said:

So call me out on it. Whenever I debunk a claim it is not acknowledged by the poster and laughed at by the same 3 people. And if no-one questioned the Western media claims and preconceived ideas that people have then this thread, and many like it, would be bereft of any meaningful discussion or education. Just a steady litany of “Ukraine will win, Putin bad” while no-one has their views challenged or learns a God damn thing. Today I learned from EdwardIV why the US deficit is not such a big deal. And you?

"So call me out on it."

Why should I call you out on it, I'm quite happy reading your heavily weighted material leaning towards Putin.

You don't think Putin is bad, or is it you don't like other posters calling him bad.

It is you that makes false claims, only last month you and your buddy Papallon accused me of reporting you, which I didn't. Calm down a bit, you will not hear what you want to hear from me at least, I'm sorry but that's the way the cookie crumbles when dealing with vile despots like Putin.

 

 

 

 

[Fanta]

5 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

"So call me out on it."

Why should I call you out on it, I'm quite happy reading your heavily weighted material leaning towards Putin.

You don't think Putin is bad, or is it you don't like other posters calling him bad.

It is you that makes false claims, only last month you and your buddy Papallon accused me of reporting you, which I didn't. Calm down a bit, you will not hear what you want to hear from me at least, I'm sorry but that's the way the cookie crumbles when dealing with vile despots like Putin.

So don’t complain about it. Or maybe you have simply nothing to back it up with? Whatever. Your claim about my beliefs is wrong. And don’t forget “Less crying, more trying”  

[Marble-eye]

3 minutes ago, Fanta said:

So don’t complain about it. Or maybe you have simply nothing to back it up with? Whatever. Your claim about my beliefs is wrong. And don’t forget “Less crying, more trying”  

Stop getting angry, that says so much about you and your posts.

[Fester]

4 minutes ago, Fanta said:

So don’t complain about it. Or maybe you have simply nothing to back it up with? Whatever. Your claim about my beliefs is wrong. And don’t forget “Less crying, more trying”  

And there's nobody more trying than you.

[Poolie]

5 minutes ago, Fester said:

And there's nobody more trying than you.

Here we go, the inevitable descent into personal insult. Shame.

[Marble-eye]

1 minute ago, Poolie said:

Here we go, the inevitable descent into personal insult. Shame.

F Troop has arrived.

[oldschooler]

14 minutes ago, Fanta said:

So call me out on it. Whenever I debunk a claim it is not acknowledged by the poster and laughed at by the same 3 people. And if no-one questioned the Western media claims and preconceived ideas that people have then this thread, and many like it, would be bereft of any meaningful discussion or education. Just a steady litany of “Ukraine will win, Putin bad” while no-one has their views challenged or learns a God damn thing. Today I learned from EdwardIV why the US deficit is not such a big deal. And you?

Let’s all stop generalizing by using the despised term “western media”.
Replace perhaps with “ western experts”. Current Defence ministers, GCHQ chief, former top intelligence chiefs,  prime ministers, defence institute analysts, former NATO Commanders & Chiefs; all speaking direct on western news channels. Army / Air Force / Navy / Intelligence Functional Experts. 

General Wesley Clark, former NATO Supreme Commander was on CNN yesterday. UK GCHQ ( NSA) Chief on BBC. UK Air Force Marshall on Sky News.

THESE are not “ media” but people who have conducted actual military & intelligence strategy & operations, most deserving of out attention surely ? Not “talking heads” presenters.

[Stardust]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

We are providing links.

However you either dismiss them as western propaganda or quote a tiny part of the linked article to justify your own position while ignoring the rest of it.

A while ago you were asked to provide a link confirming your claim that China was supplying weapons to Russia. You still havent done that. 

Yes they can supply submarines without engines, warship without engines and aircrafts without software, chips and engines . Yes I am also interested on a link on any supplies they can do

[Stardust]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

Has China cut off exports to Russia? No. Have China cut off Russian imports? No. Frozen Russian funds? No. Seized Russian assets? No. Condemned the war? No. Implemented sanctions? No. Many countries have done that but not China. And that is not support? If you think China is sitting on the fence then you are partially right but it is obvious which way they are leaning and money speaks louder than words. 

Compare to the money just from the Eu and USA Russia is a laughing stock. And China without tech supply from Europe/USA instead from Russia?!

Check the exports just from Germany and what is it about (machine builders, robot tech,software, production lines,engineering, etc etc etc ) Without their exports their productions are down. There is no tech product anymore then in China, no cars, trains, computers ,smartphones etc etc . Without Europe no more space navigation no more gps in China etc. There is no production without tech suppliers from abroad in China including semiconductors and high tech chips, too!

By the way no warships no submarines no aircrafts etc etc

Maybe check first what is inside a chinese submarine (ask why they can supply only without engine) huawei phone, chinese speed train, computer etc

Very quick done if they prefer Russia as a trade partner. You talked before about money then maybe compare first just trading volumes China , USA, Europe to Russia and maybe add all allies then, too!

Go ahead

[EdwardV]

8 hours ago, Fanta said:

You said best weapons. One new type of fighter is hardly the same. My point stands - Russia to China military weapons sales are still going strong. The economic stuff? As I said already I am not an economist, so I’ll take your word on it. Despite the accusations by the “kill ‘em all, let God sort them out” crowd I am not pro Putin or anti Ukraine.  I have only said 2 controversial things that made some posters pause in  daubing their faces in Ukrainian war paint long enough to mash out an angry reply on their, hopefully spittle proof, keyboards. 1) All sides are using propaganda 2) a peace plan is in Ukraine best interests. And you never answered my question about the peace plan….

Oh ye of little faith. What are Russia's top weapon systems? Su-57 stealth fighter, no sales to China. Mig-35 4++ fighter, no sales to China. S-500 anti missile system, no sales to China. T-14 Armata tank, no sales to China. Su-34 attack aircraft, no sales to China. Russia is more than happy to sell China other systems, after all it's one of their big money makers. However the more cutting edge, not so much. They know the Chinese will reverse engineer and copy cutting into future sales. It is a delicate balance as they are screwed if they do, and screwed if they don't. 

Your actual point was China will support Russia because of all the economic ties. I think we have show that really isn't the case. China is completely dependent on the West for economic ties, Russia not so much. That said, China will support Russia but for geopolitical reasons. First China basically has no friends. Well outside of Pakistan who is more of a negative than a positive. I guess you can count North Korea and Cambodia but see Pakistan. China needs Russia to help counter the US and all of it's allies. If Russia goes down, China is pretty much all alone in the world.   

[Convert54]

Why is it that there is this fundamentalist addiction to a singular mistakenly contrived msm  presentation of a potentially  obliterative potential ? Has the brain dead majority so massively buried any  possible concept of perception, interpretation, consideration, cognition, and never mind alternative conclusions that anything other than  fundamentalist adulation and conformist defense is actually valid ? George Bush the  junior presented via script the suggestion that in terms of US  foreign policy v the Iraq deception for war was a matter of  "Be with us or if not  you will  be against us ". Forget not that the premise of that  invasion was and has been undeniably proven false. But not without purpose ! Not then or now by all involved in current conflict !

Collateral damage for warmongers is simply a factor of disputable  incidence rather than any  measure of success  beyond accusation/ counter accusation of "atrocity" whereas the premise of Putin's attack is deemed "illegal". Would it be considered  not  illegal if Putin had  declared "war"  instead of the  ill defined "special operation" ? Perhaps Putin  was applying more than a little ironic reference backed with internationally established precedent ?

Sycophantic adherence to and adulation of a singular philosophy that is constructed to completely deny even the potential for considered and meaningful mass arbitration for  genuine social and humanitarian  interest. 

IMO the irony of the situation is that as a proxy world war ( which I sincerely believe it is !)  the social(ist) elements of human existence are being manipulated into conflict while at the same moment the aims of end intent in eventual culmination will continue the devolution of "civilization" desired by  both sides in the  contest.

The initial  winners  eventually are likely  to be cockroaches closely followed by fungal blankets !

 

 

 

 

 

[Stardust]

8 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

Why is it that there is this fundamentalist addiction to a singular mistakenly contrived msm  presentation of a potentially  obliterative potential ? Has the brain dead majority so massively buried any  possible concept of perception, interpretation, consideration, cognition, and never mind alternative conclusions that anything other than  fundamentalist adulation and conformist defense is actually valid ? George Bush the  junior presented via script the suggestion that in terms of US  foreign policy v the Iraq deception for war was a matter of  "Be with us or if not  you will  be against us ". Forget not that the premise of that  invasion was and has been undeniably proven false. But not without purpose ! Not then or now by all involved in current conflict !

Collateral damage for warmongers is simply a factor of disputable  incidence rather than any  measure of success  beyond accusation/ counter accusation of "atrocity" whereas the premise of Putin's attack is deemed "illegal". Would it be considered  not  illegal if Putin had  declared "war"  instead of the  ill defined "special operation" ? Perhaps Putin  was applying more than a little ironic reference backed with internationally established precedent ?

Sycophantic adherence to and adulation of a singular philosophy that is constructed to completely deny even the potential for considered and meaningful mass arbitration for  genuine social and humanitarian  interest. 

IMO the irony of the situation is that as a proxy world war ( which I sincerely believe it is !)  the social(ist) elements of human existence are being manipulated into conflict while at the same moment the aims of end intent in eventual culmination will continue the devolution of "civilization" desired by  both sides in the  contest.

The initial  winners  eventually are likely  to be cockroaches closely followed by fungal blankets !

So it means the Ukrainians invaded and bombed Ukraine? How stupid we could be not understand that and it must be the western media why we not applaude to this masterpiece from Putin to kill civillians. Good we have sombody who can explain us that. Selfdefense and be against the invasion from Putin is warmongering and they don't kniw it because they are influenced by western elements . Now I understand the world better

[Alavan]

11 hours ago, Fanta said:

China is Russia’s # 1 trading partner

Oeps, only number 12 for China, or even number 14 with Malaysia bigger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_China

https://www.worldstopexports.com/chinas-top-import-partners/
 

[EdwardV]

3 hours ago, Fanta said:

And the Russian oil and gas is still flowing.

Don't count that Chicken just yet. Schlumberger, Baker Hughes, and Halliburton all left Russia last week.  

[butterfly]

2 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Don't count that Chicken just yet. Schlumberger, Baker Hughes, and Halliburton all left Russia last week.  

good news then, fewer "cover" agencies to spy over the Kremlin 

Edited April 1, 2022 by butterfly

[Rookiescot]

42 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

Sycophantic adherence to and adulation of a singular philosophy that is constructed to completely deny even the potential for considered and meaningful mass arbitration for  genuine social and humanitarian  interest. 

Thats the only part of that post which is relevant. 

So please do explain to us all why Czar Putin is a victim in all of this and explain why he spends so much time now locked in his bedroom shouting instructions through the doors keyhole?

Surely if everyone else in the Kremlin thought he was right then he would be able to walk and talk freely amongst his own subjects.

[KRLMRX]

4 hours ago, Marble-eye said:

Thank you for your verbosity, if you or anyone else needs proof of the sometimes obvious ask and you will receive, it is no good waiting weeks greeting over posts you should have mentioned on day 1 now is it.

"And there wouldn’t be any casualties if the Russians hadn’t invaded in the first place” No-one is denying that fact however stating it continuously adds no weight to a discussion"

But that is the most obvious part of any debate, it will always play a major part of any debate and attempting to sweep it under the carpet to try and make your arguments more believable will not work I'm afraid.

We are not talking of a 50 - 50 blame game here, most people would agree that the Russians are way in the lead on that score here. 

most people who can read will surely say that the US is the invasion champion.

https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/these-are-the-only-3-countries-america-hasnt-invaded/

[KRLMRX]

despite the near victory of some local commentators over Putin, he continues to snap back.

The Russian Defense Ministry announced the start of the main phase of the operation - the liberation of Donbass.

This means that in the near future we will see fierce battles for the cities, with heavy casualties on both sides and, unfortunately, civilians.

[EdwardV]

52 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

most people who can read will surely say that the US is the invasion champion

 

That's called a false equivalency. You are trying to justify Russia's evil deed by comparing it to something someone else did. Sorry Putin doesn't get a free pass to destroy hospitals, apartment buildings, schools, bomb shelters and murder Ukrainian citizens.