News Forum - UKRAINE UPDATES: Russia relents, Ukraine offers concessions at Turkey peace talks; Amnesty decries Russian war crimes

[EdwardV]

25 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

destruction in cities where there are active hostilities.  that is, the death of civilians and the destruction of cities is a consequence of hostilities, and not a goal.

Ok but who is the cause of the hostilities?
What you are missing is the fact one of the objectives of the Russian method is to actually create refugees. They do this by targeting civilian infrastructure and the civilians themselves. As you can see it’s working quite well. 

[Rookiescot]

15 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Some interesting reading for you

https://www.reuters.com/world/moscow-beijing-agreed-widen-cooperation-ifax-cites-russian-foreign-ministry-2022-03-30/

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-02/china-russia-ukraine-war-foreign-policy-friendship/100957974

Fine. We can do China at the same time. That human wave just doesn't work any more. As we can see Russian equipment gets torn apart by western weapons and China only has knock off versions of the same kit.

Western forces will rip them up.

Its going to happen eventually so lets just get this done. These tinpot dictators only understand one language. Look where playing nice has got us.

[Fanta]

3 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

We did this already and you made yourself look silly.

China is not supporting Russia. It is trying very hard to remain neutral but is using the opportunity to benefit itself.

There is no buying up of Russian bonds in order to support the ruble.

There is no supply of weapons.

There is no vote of support at the UN for Russia.

China is not going to help Czar Putin because it fears the sanctions which will follow.

Moi? Silly? You were the one making claims and posting links that debunked your own claims. It seems your idea of support is weapon supplies and openly breaking Western sanctions.  As I have told you (how many times already?) Russia exports weapons to China not the other way around. Russia is not the one needing weapons support. The poorest country in Europe is. Perhaps China’s labeling of Western sanctions as being illegal might give you a hint? Read the links above your post. You might learn something. 

[EdwardV]

46 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

there is no mass return of Ukrainians from abroad, these are your fantasies.

It’s in the hundreds of thousands, hardly a fantasy 

https://www.foxnews.com/world/ukrainians-abroad-returned-home-since-russias-invasion-border-service.amp

 

[Fanta]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Fine. We can do China at the same time. That human wave just doesn't work any more. As we can see Russian equipment gets torn apart by western weapons and China only has knock off versions of the same kit.

Western forces will rip them up.

Its going to happen eventually so lets just get this done. These tinpot dictators only understand one language. Look where playing nice has got us.

You urge Ukraine to fight to the death instead of negotiating a mutually beneficial peace. And now you advocate for a war against China. A war that will likely go nuclear and kill millions. Do you wonder why some posters can’t take you seriously!

[Rookiescot]

7 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Moi? Silly? You were the one making claims and posting links that debunked your own claims. It seems your idea of support is weapon supplies and openly breaking Western sanctions.  As I have told you (how many times already?) Russia exports weapons to China not the other way around. Russia is not the one needing weapons support. The poorest country in Europe is. Perhaps China’s labeling of Western sanctions as being illegal might give you a hint? Read the links above your post. You might learn something. 

But weapon supplies and actively breaking western sanctions was what YOU were claiming was happening.

Its good to see that you now accept thats not the case.

Do you really think China will risk western sanctions itself just to dig out Czar Putin? No of course it wont.

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, Fanta said:

You urge Ukraine to fight to the death instead of negotiating a mutually beneficial peace. And now you advocate for a war against China. A war that will likely go nuclear and kill millions. Do you wonder why some posters can’t take you seriously!

So the only reason we cant stand up against tinpot dictators is because they have nukes?

Thats a poor argument given the west has loads of them. 

What you are essentially saying is "We have to appease these dictators because they have nukes".

[Fanta]

7 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

So the only reason we cant stand up against tinpot dictators is because they have nukes?

Thats a poor argument given the west has loads of them. 

What you are essentially saying is "We have to appease these dictators because they have nukes".

I have never said China is supplying weapons nor that China is actively breaking Western sanctions. And your nuke argument highlights the need for annual dementia tests in the Angry Dads Army. Call back when you get the all clear. 

[Rookiescot]

5 minutes ago, Fanta said:

I have never said China is supplying weapons nor that China is actively breaking Western sanctions. And your nuke argument highlights the need for annual dementia tests in the Angry Dads Army. Call back when you get the all clear. 

So China is not actively supporting Czar Putin then.

Finally we got there.

[oldschooler]

52 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Ok but who is the cause of the hostilities?
What you are missing is the fact one of the objectives of the Russian method is to actually create refugees. They do this by targeting civilian infrastructure and the civilians themselves. As you can see it’s working quite well. 

Quite. “Wreck” Part of Putin War Objectives :

Control - Neutralize - WRECK ( especially if first two aren’t happening)

4,000 unfortunate dead civilians ( secondary goal)

Ten Million Displaced / Refugees ( primary)

Cities Ports Road RailDestroyed ( primary)

 

[KRLMRX]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

So countries should not resist an illegal invasion because people will get hurt?

Seriously?

no. countries should unite to solve planetary problems, and not fight.

[oldschooler]

48 minutes ago, Fanta said:

You urge Ukraine to fight to the death instead of negotiating a mutually beneficial peace. And now you advocate for a war against China. A war that will likely go nuclear and kill millions. Do you wonder why some posters can’t take you seriously!

Clearly No Peace Possible until after RUSSIA Withdraws Completely. 

China CCP will to be eradicated, best by their own people. Or same scenario as Ukraine ; CCP lured into attacking Taiwan then Incompetent CCP Military Smashed by Existing Democratic Alliance. 

[Rookiescot]

11 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

no. countries should unite to solve planetary problems, and not fight.

So what happens when a country is illegally invaded?

[oldschooler]

7 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

I think Zelensky would be happy to do this in order to quickly forget this nightmare.

But in Ukraine, as well as in Russia, there is a large group of very militant "patriots" who are now the authorities in Ukraine and will not allow him to simply surrender.

I think that after the defeat of the eastern group by the Ukrainian army and the liberation / occupation of the eastern and southern regions of Ukraine, a peace agreement will be signed that will stop this conflict for a while.

Clearly only Russia can stop what they started ! Ukraine (NATO) Strategy: Continue to Bleed Russia Dry all the time Russia remains in Ukraine! 

[Convert54]

4 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Looks like only your fellow Putin acolytes here bothered to read and admire this unintelligible gibberish. Skimmed this nonsense to conclude it’s a Marxism diatribe of some sort found on discarded pamphlets….. 

The  saddest part of your retorts is that they continue to rarely contain any actual content rather than ignorant attempt in defense of personal opinion  via obfuscation in consideration of the totality of media presented events .

Perhaps you  could discover the capacity  to take a viewpoint that removes  connection  at the  nose to any particular  politically  imbued indoctrinated involuntary reflex ?

Do I or  several others  in this forum  "support" Putin  and /or the invasion of the Ukraine by virtue of opinion or comment not automatically  adherent to  your own or other  disciples ?

Let it  be on record here that I do not  support  Putin in his  invasion of the Ukraine  but that I do  find  his  original  stated rationale  to be generally valid  in terms  of his motivations. NATO exists  by  virtue  of a  designated "enemy" That being Russia  despite  providing  a key element in the defeat of Hitler's fascist attempt in domination. 

As it is IMO the world should be a little grateful to Putin  in that  and for  being the inevitable catalyst for the introduction of not only geopolitical  change but a significant change in the economic systems and eventually the "value" of any individual.  ( Do NOT  confuse  value  with  wealth   ! )

For sure  you as  "Old  school" will  as much dust as I  because even if  we come from the opposite  extremes of the schoolroom of life  it  can and only be insignificant as individuals in  future outcome !

IMHO  it is the ironical situation of competition for dominance via autocracy that near all presentations of attempt by corrupt or militant methods cited as on behalf of social protection and democratic  representation is blatantly funded by corporate interests .

Humanity has already long  eliminated  it's meaningful  existential capacity for justifiable continuance not  simply due to it's apparent suicidal propensity for self  destruction as a species via "war" but the ongoing incremental environmental poisoning to eventual same outcome in defense of ongoing selfish defense of status  quo !

And in explanation of this capacity the highly  educated that declare  humans are  the most intelligent  species avoid  naming  politicians.

 

[oldschooler]

7 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

yes, I ask this, because you stated that the goal of the Russians is to destroy cities and kill civilians.  Why do they do it in one city, but not in the next one?  What is the reason?

in Kherson, you can temporarily withdraw troops and drop a bomb there. What is the problem?

Killing some few civilians (4,000) is the necessary spark to start the fire, i.e. the ten million refugees, part of WRECKING Ukraine.  

Kherson already sufficiently Wrecked. So no further civilian destruction necessary.

[KRLMRX]

5 hours ago, Fester said:

I think you must mean Russia's actions provoked Ukrainian military reaction in the Donbas in 2014, after Russia inserted irregular fighters, regular troops and other military support, to weaponize what had been a peaceful protest against the new Ukrainian government and cause much worse destabilization in the area.

All about the same time Russia pinched the Crimea and MH lost their 777 with all souls. Putin is responsible for so many deaths now. Shame.

you are broadcasting a version of events that is voiced by the pro-Western government of Ukraine and its Western partners.

The reality is different - at first the protests of pro-Russian citizens in eastern Ukraine were peaceful, Ukraine responded to this with a military operation, after that Russia began to help the rebels.

On this video of the event on May 9, 2014 in Mariupol, these days everything that we see now began. on this day, Russia and Ukraine celebrated Victory Day in the Second World War (the victory of the USSR over Nazi Germany, a little later Ukraine canceled this holiday) and on the same day, the stupid rulers of Ukraine ordered troops to be sent to Mariupol. People tried to stop the tanks, dozens of people died.

I'm not ashamed of it, these people are heroes.

https://youtu.be/McgNyNeQpiM

 

[oldschooler]

15 hours ago, EdwardV said:

You know I don't really feel much sympathy for the Russians as they have brought this upon themselves. However you almost do for these guys: 

As Moscow's forces bog down in Ukraine, many young Russians of draft age are increasingly jittery about the prospect of being sent into combat. Making those fears particularly acute is an annual spring conscription that began Friday and aims to round up 134,500 men for a one-year tour of military duty. Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu pledged at a meeting of the military brass this week that the new recruits won't be sent to front lines or “hot spots.” But the statement was met with skepticism by many in Russia who remember the separatist wars in the southern republic of Chechnya in the 1990s and early 2000s, when thousands of poorly trained young men were killed. “I don't trust them when they say they won't send conscripts into combat. They lie all the time,” ... In recent years, the Kremlin has emphasized increasing the share of volunteer contract soldiers as it sought to modernize the army and improve its readiness. The force of 1 million now has over 400,000 contract soldiers, including 147,000 in the infantry. If the war drags on, those numbers could be insufficient to sustain the operations.

War in Ukraine fuels fears among draft-age Russian youths (msn.com)

Besides the shock at seeing how few of the volunteer contract soldiers are actually in the infantry (wow!), means draftees are no doubt going to be thrown against battle hardened Ukrainians with the same bad results. Keeping in mind, Moscow extended the service time for last years draftees so they aren't going home anytime soon (unless ...). Sucks but of course is fully understandable. 

Western Volunteer Infantry Recruits are ideally given minimum nine months prep. before combat.

In Iraq US National Guard with 6-8 weeks training were convoy -guarding cannon fodder for Insurgents. Just mostly panicked & ran away under first fire. Shot in the back. 

Similar Russians have zero chance to survive any combat with Ukraine Vets. They should really just Surrender & Defect to Ukraine. Better than dying after one week. 

[KRLMRX]

1 hour ago, EdwardV said:

Ok but who is the cause of the hostilities?
What you are missing is the fact one of the objectives of the Russian method is to actually create refugees. They do this by targeting civilian infrastructure and the civilians themselves. As you can see it’s working quite well. 

this is what I'm talking about - all events are a chain of causes and consequences.

and you often take an event out of this chain and are rightly indignant at their tragic properties.

[oldschooler]

22 minutes ago, Convert54 said:

The  saddest part of your retorts is that they continue to rarely contain any actual content rather than ignorant attempt in defense of personal opinion  via obfuscation in consideration of the totality of media presented events .

Perhaps you  could discover the capacity  to take a viewpoint that removes  connection  at the  nose to any particular  politically  imbued indoctrinated involuntary reflex ?

Do I or  several others  in this forum  "support" Putin  and /or the invasion of the Ukraine by virtue of opinion or comment not automatically  adherent to  your own or other  disciples ?

Let it  be on record here that I do not  support  Putin in his  invasion of the Ukraine  but that I do  find  his  original  stated rationale  to be generally valid  in terms  of his motivations. NATO exists  by  virtue  of a  designated "enemy" That being Russia  despite  providing  a key element in the defeat of Hitler's fascist attempt in domination. 

As it is IMO the world should be a little grateful to Putin  in that  and for  being the inevitable catalyst for the introduction of not only geopolitical  change but a significant change in the economic systems and eventually the "value" of any individual.  ( Do NOT  confuse  value  with  wealth   ! )

For sure  you as  "Old  school" will  as much dust as I  because even if  we come from the opposite  extremes of the schoolroom of life  it  can and only be insignificant as individuals in  future outcome !

IMHO  it is the ironical situation of competition for dominance via autocracy that near all presentations of attempt by corrupt or militant methods cited as on behalf of social protection and democratic  representation is blatantly funded by corporate interests .

Humanity has already long  eliminated  it's meaningful  existential capacity for justifiable continuance not  simply due to it's apparent suicidal propensity for self  destruction as a species via "war" but the ongoing incremental environmental poisoning to eventual same outcome in defense of ongoing selfish defense of status  quo !

And in explanation of this capacity the highly  educated that declare  humans are  the most intelligent  species avoid  naming  politicians.

That Translation Software needs Replacing! Bad Logic Machine gone wild ! HAL from Space Odyssey….or Mr. Logic from Viz Comic…

Rationality Evidence Analysis Humanity are clearly not strong points with Marxists ! They do so adore their anti- western tyrants though

[KRLMRX]

1 hour ago, EdwardV said:

It’s in the hundreds of thousands, hardly a fantasy 

https://www.foxnews.com/world/ukrainians-abroad-returned-home-since-russias-invasion-border-service.amp

this article mentions the quantity and two sources of information twice.

1) More than 320,000 Ukrainians have returned home since Russian forces invaded on Feb. 24, the State Border Guard Service of Ukraine said Thursday.

with all due respect, the Ukrainian government cannot be a reliable source.

2) In Poland alone, border guards have counted more than 195,000 crossings of people into Ukraine, 80% of whom were Ukrainian nationals, though some people may have been counted twice, a Polish Border Guard spokesperson said this week.

It's good that they didn't count 10 times, right?

[oldschooler]

12 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

this is what I'm talking about - all events are a chain of causes and consequences.

and you often take an event out of this chain and are rightly indignant at their tragic properties.

Cause: Unfree Weak Tyrant “ Feels Threatened” by Free NATO & West- leaning Corrupt Ukraine ( NATO ? No Chance).? (Pretext for Violence Option).

Reason Says: Not Credible to “ believe “ Purely Defensive NATO would Invade a nuclear- armed Russia.(Pretext Again).

Pre- Effect: Putin wants to Control - Neutralize- Wreck Ukraine; “ spoiling” it for NATO & EU. Sanctions Price OK !

Effect: Russia Invades Ukraine (against all proper reason, logic & humanity). 

Did I Miss Anything Important ? 

[oldschooler]

17 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

this article mentions the quantity and two sources of information twice.

1) More than 320,000 Ukrainians have returned home since Russian forces invaded on Feb. 24, the State Border Guard Service of Ukraine said Thursday.

with all due respect, the Ukrainian government cannot be a reliable source.

2) In Poland alone, border guards have counted more than 195,000 crossings of people into Ukraine, 80% of whom were Ukrainian nationals, though some people may have been counted twice, a Polish Border Guard spokesperson said this week.

It's good that they didn't count 10 times, right?

Event & Trend Obvious though….. 

[oldschooler]

31 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

this is what I'm talking about - all events are a chain of causes and consequences.

and you often take an event out of this chain and are rightly indignant at their tragic properties.

Talking In Riddles = Case Lost Every Time

[oldschooler]

34 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Western Volunteer Infantry Recruits are ideally given minimum nine months prep. before combat.

In Iraq US National Guard with 6-8 weeks training were convoy -guarding cannon fodder for Insurgents. Just mostly panicked & ran away under first fire. Shot in the back. 

Similar Russians have zero chance to survive any combat with Ukraine Vets. They should really just Surrender & Defect to Ukraine. Better than dying after one week. 

“ Dying ain’t much of a Living, boy” 

(Outlaw Josey Wales)