News Forum - Killing off retirement opportunities in Thailand – OPINION

[Benroon]

2 hours ago, LoongFred said:

Could you retire at home on 60k baht/ month? 

Exactly - this is the western sense of entitlement coming into play - it baffles me that westerners get really angry when they find out they can't live on next to nothing in Thailand that they wouldn't have a prayer of living on in their own country. Thailand doesn't owe you anything or a particular standard of living.

[riclag]

3 hours ago, Naresh said:

Very valid issue, well highlighted.

Can there be a way to take it to the authorities who matter? 

It is in mutual interest of Thailand and the visitors. Complicated and expensive requirements would dampen the spirit and discourage many. 

I don’t have insurance but I have the ready availability to transfer them here  1 mill bht for  cancer treatment or what ever sum ! What was the original plan in requiring non o’s  to have 800k and 400k

[riclag]

3 hours ago, Soidog said:

I think that is spot on @Poolie.  It’s why I’m often disappointed that more Thai families who are likely affected by these changes don’t protest more about it. The foreigners cant and there’s no real financial pressure as you say on the Thai economy. 

Freedom of speech  for one and the other loosing face

[Benroon]

Isn't the issue the Thai authorities want to stem the losses of the farangs that steal from their health care service ? If so this appears to be a self inflicted wound.

I have a friend (honestly) who ran up a 2 million baht bill following a heart attack. So to the people complaining, if you had his heart attack, could you pay that bill ? If so you can surely afford the premiums, if you can't then you are the reason Thailand are introducing the insurance regimes I guess. Would you work for free ?

I think too many people are just winging it health wise hoping nothing will go wrong and when it does don't have the means to pay for it. No country can, or should sustain that attitude for long imo.

[Carl]

I totally agree, and the choices made by Immigration have forced me to eye other retirement options instead of Thailand. I’m saddened and puzzled by their apparent lack of understanding.

[riclag]

1 hour ago, DiJoDavO said:

I'm not sure about the numbers. But with the amount of tourists that you call cheap Charlies that came a few years back, and maybe in the future again, aren't we underestimating the amount of money they bring in? Maybe per person not as much as rich people, but look how many of these people there were. 

+ the money that they spend, most likely goes to local people instead of the big brands. 

Speaking about this thread,The money that they spend most likely  goes to the big shots ,like hotels, insurance companies, agents, airlines , and Govt agencies.

One other point ! For the last 15 years and especially since 2014 when this junta came to power and started their immigration schemes that were directed toward expats and falang tourists many have complained on falang sites!

With every new change .The most popular comments over the years is  basically “ don’t they realize how much falangs bring to the economy “! 

The junta certainly does realize and will continue to exploit it imop
 

Edited November 1, 2021 by riclag

[Soidog]

14 minutes ago, Benroon said:

Isn't the issue the Thai authorities want to stem the losses of the farangs that steal from their health care service ? If so this appears to be a self inflicted wound.

I have a friend (honestly) who ran up a 2 million baht bill following a heart attack. So to the people complaining, if you had his heart attack, could you pay that bill ? If so you can surely afford the premiums, if you can't then you are the reason Thailand are introducing the insurance regimes I guess. Would you work for free ?

I think too many people are just winging it health wise hoping nothing will go wrong and when it does don't have the means to pay for it. No country can, or should sustain that attitude for long imo.

I agree many people are winging it and I can see the argument against allowing people who haven’t contributed to the Thai economy getting medical support for free. However, many of those affected would be those who have already been contributing to the Thai economy for many years. I’m really not sure what the answer is without knowing the full details of what a punitive policy could cause to the wider economy, or the impact on families supported by foreigners. I would also add that the 2 million baht your friends treatment was most likely a charge, it wasn’t a cost to the health care system. It was perhaps only half that amount and in line with the 800,000 baht people need to remain on a visa extended for reasons of retirement.

Places like Thailand are unusual in that people simply want to live there, not ask for lots of social welfare, spend their 30,000-100,000 a month and live without too much hassle. If we said that the average person spends 50,000 baht per month, that equates 1.8 million baht of foreign income in to the Thai economy after just 5 years. That ignores the 4,000,000 spent on a condo or house. The 1.2 million spent on a car. I would imagine the average expat has contributes 7,000,000 baht of foreign currency income in 5 years. Surely that at least deserves a little more compassion and understanding?  
 

As I say, I don’t have the answer and this is just my opinion. I just feel being at the mercy of a dramatic change to your life in your later years is simply cruel and unreasonable. 

[HolyCowCm]

16 minutes ago, Soidog said:

I agree many people are winging it and I can see the argument against allowing people who haven’t contributed to the Thai economy getting medical support for free. However, many of those affected would be those who have already been contributing to the Thai economy for many years. I’m really not sure what the answer is without knowing the full details of what a punitive policy could cause to the wider economy, or the impact on families supported by foreigners. I would also add that the 2 million baht your friends treatment was most likely a charge, it wasn’t a cost to the health care system. It was perhaps only half that amount and in line with the 800,000 baht people need to remain on a visa extended for reasons of retirement.

Places like Thailand are unusual in that people simply want to live there, not ask for lots of social welfare, spend their 30,000-100,000 a month and live without too much hassle. If we said that the average person spends 50,000 baht per month, that equates 1.8 million baht of foreign income in to the Thai economy after just 5 years. That ignores the 4,000,000 spent on a condo or house. The 1.2 million spent on a car. I would imagine the average expat has contributes 7,000,000 baht of foreign currency income in 5 years. Surely that at least deserves a little more compassion and understanding?  
 

As I say, I don’t have the answer and this is just my opinion. I just feel being at the mercy of a dramatic change to your life in your later years is simply cruel and unreasonable. 

Fully agree 

[riclag]

3 minutes ago, Soidog said:

I agree many people are winging it and I can see the argument against allowing people who haven’t contributed to the Thai economy getting medical support for free. However, many of those affected would be those who have already been contributing to the Thai economy for many years. I’m really not sure what the answer is without knowing the full details of what a punitive policy could cause to the wider economy, or the impact on families supported by foreigners. I would also add that the 2 million baht your friends treatment was most likely a charge, it wasn’t a cost to the health care system. It was perhaps only half that amount and in line with the 800,000 baht people need to remain on a visa extended for reasons of retirement.

Places like Thailand are unusual in that people simply want to live there, not ask for lots of social welfare, spend their 30,000-100,000 a month and live without too much hassle. If we said that the average person spends 50,000 baht per month, that equates 1.8 million baht of foreign income in to the Thai economy after just 5 years. That ignores the 4,000,000 spent on a condo or house. The 1.2 million spent on a car. I would imagine the average expat has contributes 7,000,000 baht of foreign currency income in 5 years. Surely that at least deserves a little more compassion and understanding?  
 

As I say, I don’t have the answer and this is just my opinion. I just feel being at the mercy of a dramatic change to your life in your later years is simply cruel and unreasonable. 

Spot on and totally agree! All your figures are in line with my Thai finances! 
I remember many years ago my air force friend saying to me 

“ Spend as much as you can afford to lose, cause there could be a time when your forced to get out for one reason or another.

I don’t regret living here and spending my money ,only because I could afford it  and if I had to walk away,the finances would be ok! But the family ties and emotions that go with leaving would be akin to a nervous break down!

 

[MichelHenriod]

The new insurance policy is meant for tourists. For retirement (visa O or OA), the insurance requirement is 3mios thb. It is understandable as the thai government doesn't want anymore to burden the medical costs of backpackers without insurance or people on long term visas - often for retirement - who can also enjoy the quality of medical care in Thailand. As retirement rimes with ageing and with often more medical needs, the insurance is a must according to me as a Swiss national.

[Soidog]

24 minutes ago, sputnik2 said:

try the german hanse merkur they have affordable rates to cover thailand...about 200 euros per month for over 65 under 65 is about 75 euro per month

Do you have a link to that specific insurance? I’ve looked at this company before, and while they offer some good products, I can’t find one that covers anything more than “Travel Insurance (including medical cover) up to a maximum of 56 days per trip.  

[Cabra]

3 hours ago, TukTuk said:

You must not know anything about Florida.

The housing boom is at an all time high.

Retirement communities are booming and more being built everywhere

Our Florida house appreciated US $175,000 in the past 2 years alone.

The retirees are the main ones fueling the housing increase

Florida is a geriatric wasteland. The government there gets what they bargin for... old people move there because they save a lot of money in taxes... one of the most tax-friendly states for retirees... no state income taxes... but boring AF! 

[HolyCowCm]

If they let people get an easy PR after several years here and then mandatorily have to sign up and pay into the health system or lose the PR and then be shown the door, then this would be a problem gone away. But they have made even that hard as Hades for most to get and would rather punish and continually torture the majority of foreigners here or who want to be here. They could have many many reasonable workable plans and angles to implement but they don’t. Reality is they don’t t even like their own folk. The Thaskin 30 baht health care probably to this day eats their rich insides out. Some posters on here think that because they are wealthy or set up really well and will pay for the insurance is that they are better than others and everyone else is a loser and bottom feeder. Such as, could you live on that amount in your country? Well I don’t think I require sirloin steak and lobster everyday so my needs are not astronomically expensive. And I have money in the bank.

So this attitude is a bit as acting the same as them, like a pig headed self centered elitist. No one is asking for a free ride, but a PR and standard domestic health care system you pay into is not so much to ask and to be given regardless of age or conditions that pre-exist. Lots of us have wives and what happens if they pass away before us? Yep, we are shite up a creek and they don’t care. Well a PR or a special able to stay here type of resident long term stay card regardless of wife dying or age would be the way to go. If one wants supreme high cost upper health care, be my guest. My hospital in CM is very very reasonable as I don’t see much that would total over a few hundred thousand baht. Had a few serious things happen with me, my wife, and my son and neither was over 70,000 baht with surgery and emergency care.
But even so, we don’t t get a fair shake here as they repeatedly keep poking us foreigners in our cages. I think most of us have been here for a long time on the same visa and have enough money in the bank with some sort of investment or having family that in most any other country would give you the right to freely stay there. 
I have friends in other countries and even Thai friends in the USA who are on PR’s or have their citizenship 3 or 5 years later. . 
Anyway, no one is looking for a free ride, but most of us have ok money and the means to  keep in paying every month which is substantial compared to most Thai. 
 

This is not Monaco here or NY. It is very easy to live here on what this country really is, a low cost country if you choose that way. We probably now don’t spend more than maybe 50 -60k a month after all bills paid. We have cars and bikes and a house all paid fully off already. So, give me ease to stay here long term with my wife and kids, add an extra 2000 baht per month for me to pay into their health care system for life to leave me alone and there you have it.  Ya there will be some to disagree I am sure. But just because you have an abundance of more money does not make you a more better person or more desirable. That is pure nonsense! 

[Soidog]

6 minutes ago, HolyCowCm said:

But just because you have an abundance of more money does not make you a more better person or more desirable. That is pure nonsense! 

I agree with much of what you posted. In an earlier post on this topic I eluded to the fact that the drip drip drip of changes is a deliberate act to filter out the complaints. If they made the wholesale changes they would like to see in one step, then thousands or tens of thousands would be impacted and complain. By small incremental changes, the people who it doesn’t impact take the short sighted and short term view as it doesn’t affect them. What they don’t see is that they are condoning these actions, and it’s just a matter of time before they could be impacted.
 

Much of what has changed in the past 7 years has been small steps making it harder for people to stay more than 3 months at a time. The changes to the OA health cover and the 800k/400k in a Thai bank is already taking a bite out of the long term expats. It is actually in everyone’s interest, including those for who retirement is a distant dream away, to email their embassy and raise the issue. Complain to the Thai embassy in your own country and generally make a bit of an issue about it. The government are relying on the indifference of most to keep on this track. 

[Donald]

6 hours ago, Shade_Wilder said:

"Quite clearly the Government has simply not thought through the impact of the insurance provisions imposed by the Thailand Pass on “budget tourists” and likewise on current and prospective retirees in Thailand."

The author has hit the proverbial nail on the head with his first paragraph. However, he seems to be assuming that nothing will change.

Correct, both backpackers and seniors won't come, Thai tourism numbers won't increase, then someone will tell the people in charge that their wonderful idea isn't working and things will change. Remember; the idea behind re-opening is to stimulate a failing economy, and if the economy continues to be sluggish, things will change.

What we are seeing is decision-making by Bureaucrat with no 'skin in the game'. As soon as actual business men tell the government that the reason tourists aren't coming is it is too expensive, things will change.

The people making decisions know don't know what they are doing. When they fail, other, better qualified people in the field of tourism will be listened to.

Or, the economy will not pick up and the current government will be removed from office.

Be patient, the laws of Economics and Politics work.

I agree, but not with your statement about the removal of the current government. Don't forget this is not a democratically elected government, but a military dictatorship in disguise, and quite a brutal one albeit not so visible at first glance, and they will never ever allow the power to be taken from them.

[HolyCowCm]

26 minutes ago, Soidog said:

I agree with much of what you posted. In an earlier post on this topic I eluded to the fact that the drip drip drip of changes is a deliberate act to filter out the complaints. If they made the wholesale changes they would like to see in one step, then thousands or tens of thousands would be impacted and complain. By small incremental changes, the people who it doesn’t impact take the short sighted and short term view as it doesn’t affect them. What they don’t see is that they are condoning these actions, and it’s just a matter of time before they could be impacted.
 

Much of what has changed in the past 7 years has been small steps making it harder for people to stay more than 3 months at a time. The changes to the OA health cover and the 800k/400k in a Thai bank is already taking a bite out of the long term expats. It is actually in everyone’s interest, including those for who retirement is a distant dream away, to email their embassy and raise the issue. Complain to the Thai embassy in your own country and generally make a bit of an issue about it. The government are relying on the indifference of most to keep on this track. 

Yep. There really should be a cause that gets kick started. Some large belly aching by a huge collective of foreigners actually did get well heard and had some sort of impact at one time or the other. As said, we are not asking for a free ride, but there are better ways than continually trying to drowned all the foreigners or keep poking us in our cages until we bleed are getting ulcers. And we are caged to a certain big point. The government are a bunch of elites who dump and twist everything they can get out of their own country with not much of any care or blinking of an eye fir anyone under them.

There really should be an organized push by all the foreigners to get them to realize we all need to have something that really works to let us stay long term without fear and allows us to pay sparingly with in some  reason into the health care system for life.  
 
Their selfish propositions are always how much money can we get out of them or how can we get the rich ones to throw down. We deserve better than to be kicked or spit on. I know the USA once your there is wide open and fair for the most part to the Thai people.  

[Stonker]

55 minutes ago, HolyCowCm said:

If they let people get an easy PR after several years here (snip)

What's hard to get about it if you've been here for three years and are either working and paying tax or married to a Thai?

The criteria are simple, and if you meet them the process can take time but while I don't have PR as I'm not eligible I've never met anyone who met them who applied for PR and didn't get it - I've met plenty who complained about it but never applied though!

[Stonker]

40 minutes ago, Donald said:

Don't forget this is not a democratically elected government ...

YES  IT  IS!!!!

You may not like it (and FWIW neither do I) but while the senate were nominated the government were ALL democratically elected either by direct vote or by a  system of party list / proportional representation, which is fairer and a far more representative system than in many Western countries, and while the system for electing the PM may be highly questionable it's no less democratic than in many Western countries and the system itself was approved by a referendum and he's easily survived every no confidence vote in the lower house. 

Whether the referendum on the constitution was free and fair (and the second question on the PM's election) is a very different matter and in my view it wasn't, but like it or not the government were democratically elected.

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, HolyCowCm said:

 

Lots of us have wives and what happens if they pass away before us? Yep, we are shite up a creek and they don’t care

 

Well, at least we don't have to pay over 100,000 baht just to change the visa which is what a Thai on a family visa would have to pay in the UK if they didn't have a right to remain and their British  husband / wife died... plus another 100,000 baht each for any kids also on a family visa

[Thomazz59]

Move to Vietnam then????

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, riclag said:

... I have the ready availability to transfer them here  1 mill bht for  cancer treatment or what ever sum !

Don't worry about "1 mill bht" - the last farang who took the Thai government to court (and lost) for overcharging him for his cancer treatment, which he'd had every quarter over a four year period, was complaining because his bills totalled just over 20,000 baht.

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, NCC1701A said:

i'm not smart. help me understand.

i have been here almost eight years. i'm retired and nobody ask me for insurance. 

why is that? this story scare me. 

Bear in mind that apart from the insurance requirement for those on an 'O-A' retirement extension, who can always get an 'O' visa instead, none of the "mights"  or  "coulds", from needing $100,000 in the bank to being able to sing the national anthem underwater, have not only never happened but have never even been proposed.

[Stonker]

8 hours ago, Johno said:

Agree with every thing said here and the fact of the 2 tiered medical Bill's which charge the westerner outrageous prices compared to locals  

Could you give some examples of those "outrageous prices" that you know anyone's actually paid in a state hospital?

... or the "2 tiered medical bills" in a private hospital?

Just asking, as I've never paid "outrageous prices" in a state hospital nor have I ever seen a Thai getting charged less in a private hospital.

[FJC]

Hi 

I’m pushing 70 and, while I’m not happy having to pay the extra health insurance, I understand the reasons behind the new rules. It is the inconsiderate people who abuse the Thai health system that are to blame.

 All travellers and retirees who cannot pay their medical bills do not assist the Thai nation. 
 

 

[Sandbar]

13 hours ago, Thaiger said:

OPINION Quite clearly the Government has simply not thought through the impact of the insurance provisions imposed by the Thailand Pass on “budget tourists” and likewise on current and prospective retirees in Thailand. The sobering reality is that it is well nigh impossible for individuals, 70 years and above, to obtain health insurance other than at exorbitant rates. The insurance requirements, USD 50k (1.6m THB), while rational on the surface, will undoubtedly block the backpacker/budget tourist cohort and simultaneously devastate those long-term elderly Non-Resident Visa holding retirees, many of whom live on fixed pensions and have been attracted to remain […]

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