Afghanistan Has Fallen

[9S_]

15 minutes ago, PBS said:

trump is responsible for the ultimate failure of US efforts in Afghanistan by announcing withdrawal of all US forces, together with his utterly stupid decision making e.g. (no Afghan government involvement with the Doha Agreement). After Doha, Taliban were still busily murdering Afghan politicians, civilians and Afghan security forces. trump administration, along with all other US administrations totally failed to take into account Afghan culture and society structure in their decision making.

Strange I don’t see Trump in the White House do you??

Last I checked none zero nada provincial capitals fell while Trump was in office and on his last day. Girls could go to school. Female politicians could debate law. Female filmmakers could make movies. Girls can go to hair salons and get their hair done. They could walk around in tight jeans and wear make up all up to the last day of Trump in office. 

But now? All under Bidens watch

[9S_]

3 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

Were you actually stationed on site, or are you taking the ever reliable Fox News word for it?

Here’s the voice of Afghanistan dated 2014

Here’s an Afghan female film director’s trailer for a movie she made:

Here’s an Afghan music video:

 

there are plenty plenty of successes and hard won gains in Afghanistan that Biden abandoned. 

[dmacarelli]

42 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

I remember watching Afghanistan hold two presidential elections. Is that not a victory?

I remember watching videos of girls going to school, seeing Afghan female politicians from mayors to national legislators. Was that a failure?

I remember watching a newscasts in America talking about how Afghans were all on the rage of an “American-idol” show in Afghanistan, women singing in damn fine sexy clothing. Did we fail then?

Or did we fail when Afghan teenagers born after the initial invasion held a breakdancing competition?

Did we fail when all provincial capitals were firmly held in Kabul’s hands?

Or did we fail:

When US intelligence and the Pentagon warned Joe Biden that this current scenario we are seeing now will happen?

When we just got up and left Begram Airbase in the dead of night? Not even notifying the Afghan government or security forces

When Joe Biden blocked foreign mechanics from servicing the Afghan Air Force in its fight against the resurgent Taliban?

When citizens besieged the airport, clinging to dear life to escape Kabul?

When Joe Biden camped at Camp David and blamed everyone but himself, despite being a US Senator and Vice President for nearly a decade of the Afghan war?

Up until last year life seemed good for the Afghans where one female Afghan journalists talking about attending a film festival just last week

While some of that is true, it was Trump who agreed to a phased withdrawal in February of 2020. Would it have helped to leave a few thousand specialists there? Maybe, maybe not. 

As of mid-2020, Taliban forces controlled or had significant influence in many provinces and districts  of Afghanistan. In these areas, residents abide by a parallel set of government laws and Taliban-imposed regulations. Some nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) funded by international donors and working with the Afghan government provide social services, including education and health care, in Taliban-held areas. 

[dmacarelli]

4 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

Here’s the voice of Afghanistan dated 2014

Here’s an Afghan female film director’s trailer for a movie she made:

Here’s an Afghan music video:

there are plenty plenty of successes and hard won gains in Afghanistan that Biden abandoned. 

 

A total distortion of the facts. Much of the nation had already fallen to the Taliban by 2019 and 2020, under the watch of Trump, who signed off on the departure of ALL troops. So, while it is politically expedient to blame Biden, he is only partially to blame. Sorry, but truth really is truth. Biden simply followed up on what Trump put into motion. 

[9S_]

1 minute ago, dmacarelli said:

While some of that is true, it was Trump who agreed to a phased withdrawal in February of 2020. Would it have helped to leave a few thousand specialists there? Maybe, maybe not. 

Is Trump in the White House or is it Joe Biden?

Was it Trump who pulled out all troops only to send twice as many more back in? Or was that Joe Biden?

Did Trump order Begram Airbase to be abandoned in the dead of night without notifying not even our allies in the region but not notifying the Afghan security forces?

Did Trump or Biden block foreign mechanics from servicing Afghan Air Force?

Did Trump block air strikes against the Taliban while allowing air strikes against Somalia or was that Biden?

Is Trump the president or was he President 7 months ago

Did Biden uphold the Trumps decision to leave the Paris Climate Accord, abandon the Iran Nuke deal, sanction Russia’s Nord Stream pipeline into Europe or did he abandoned those too?

Did Biden say last month that the intelligence is wrong that the pentagon is wrong that Kabul will never fall to the Taliban? And that HE ordered the withdrawal of troops especially when the Pentagon and Intelligence agencies said not to?

Did Biden or Trump leave our allies on the ground last weekend? 
 

Was Trump president last night with reports coming out Jihadi Rape gangs going door to door trying to find girls ages 12+ to be forcibly married and raped?

 

Was Trump president yesterday when Kabul fell or was it Joe Biden??

[mcambl61]

3 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

A total distortion of the facts. Much of the nation had already fallen to the Taliban by 2019 and 2020, under the watch of Trump, who signed off on the departure of ALL troops. So, while it is politically expedient to blame Biden, he is only partially to blame. Sorry, but truth really is truth. Biden simply followed up on what Trump put into motion. 

Complete blather. The entire mission had zero chance of success unless we were to continue to spend hundreds of billions a year in perpetuity. 

Not one pentagon official could ever say what success was. For decades. Completely unsustainable. 

 

There were clear rules in place for retaliation if the taliban violated the negotiated agreement.

 

That all was ignored as soon as obiden was in office. 

 

All that was needed was to keep Bagram operational with full air support until we were able to get all people involved out. Basic common sense. 

 

Biden failed to make that decision. 

 

He is a corrupt incompetent dementia ridden stooge. 

[9S_]

11 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

Much of the nation had already fallen to the Taliban by 2019 and 2020

Strange, Kabul was well in a democratically led presidents hands as well as the other provincial capitals in 2019 to August 16 2021. In fact the entirety of Afghanistan fell in under one month all last month when Joe Biden was President

 

13 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

So, while it is politically expedient to blame Biden, he is only partially to blame

What!? Joe Biden is the president of the United State, not Trump. Politically expedient? Tell that to all those Afghan girls about to be raped and lose their entire livelihoods while Biden did jack squat

 

14 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

Biden simply followed up on what Trump put into motion. 

 Biden during his July press conference during the Taliban resurgence admitted it was HIS decision alone to withdraw troops from Afghanistan. He bragged about how he  ignored his own intelligence and said that they are wrong about the Taliban taking Kabul and he bragged about how he overruled the Pentagon dire prediction that Kabul will in fact fall. 

[Smithydog]

28 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

Is Trump in the White House or is it Joe Biden?

Was it Trump who pulled out all troops only to send twice as many more back in? Or was that Joe Biden?

 

Ok...We understand you are saying it is all Biden's fault and not any of Trump's. We are not going to change your mind. I differ in opinion. So be it.

Honestly, trying to win believers by repeating the same lists of the same or similar sentences over and over again is not going to prove anything except that you have either read from the Trump playbook or that I am experiencing some sort of Groundhog Day!

[Poolie]

1 hour ago, 9S_ said:

I remember watching Afghanistan hold two presidential elections. Is that not a victory?

I remember watching videos of girls going to school, seeing Afghan female politicians from mayors to national legislators. Was that a failure?

I remember watching a newscasts in America talking about how Afghans were all on the rage of an “American-idol” show in Afghanistan, women singing in damn fine sexy clothing. Did we fail then?

Or did we fail when Afghan teenagers born after the initial invasion held a breakdancing competition?

Did we fail when all provincial capitals were firmly held in Kabul’s hands?

Or did we fail:

When US intelligence and the Pentagon warned Joe Biden that this current scenario we are seeing now will happen?

When we just got up and left Begram Airbase in the dead of night? Not even notifying the Afghan government or security forces

When Joe Biden blocked foreign mechanics from servicing the Afghan Air Force in its fight against the resurgent Taliban?

When citizens besieged the airport, clinging to dear life to escape Kabul?

When Joe Biden camped at Camp David and blamed everyone but himself, despite being a US Senator and Vice President for nearly a decade of the Afghan war?

Up until last year life seemed good for the Afghans where one female Afghan journalists talking about attending a film festival just last week

Trying to Americanise Afghanistan? Yeah, that'd fail. And it has.

[9S_]

11 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

Ok...We understand you are saying it is all Biden's fault and not any of Trump's. We are not going to change your mind. I differ in opinion. So be it.

Honestly, trying to win believers by repeating the same lists of the same or similar sentences over and over again is not going to prove anything except that you have either read from the Trump playbook or that I am experiencing some sort of Groundhog Day!

Why is it so hard for you to see that Trump isn’t President? That Biden sent a delegation team in Moscow to negotiate the final withdraw of US forces with the Taliban? Trump may have signed a deal but it wasn’t ratified by the Senate and Biden didn’t have to abide by it like how ignored Trumps pull out of the Paris Climate Accords, Iran Nuclear Deal, Missile Treaty with Russia. 
 

From July to August during the Talibans resurgence Trump was not the President Joe Biden is. Even during his July press conference Biden admitted that it was HIS decision alone to withdraw troops from Afghanistan. A reporter even asked him saying that US intelligence warning him that Kabul would fall if US troops left. Biden replied that they were wrong and bragged that you would never see a Saigon style evacuation or that Kabul would fall. 
 

At the end of the day as Afghanistan fell Biden was vacationing in Camp David. After his speech he returned back to Camp David

[longwood50]

12 hours ago, Stonker said:

I disagree about Korea.

Perhaps but this notion that somehow the USA or any country can "nation build" is ludicrous.  The Romans learned 2,000 years ago with Israel that they could not stop the Jews from continually attacking them.  Their answer was to level the country, sell the Jews into slavery with the remainder of the population scattered around the world. 

If they were worried about terrorist cell training camps a better response would be to send in drone strikes and/or Seal Teams to surgically strike at encampments.  Perfect, NO.  However sending in troops only gives the terrorists more targets.  One thing is for sure, if there were not people in Afghanistan and Iraq who hated the USA and wanted to become terrorists before, the USA sure gave them ample reason after 2 decades of death and destruction. 

The ludicrous part is while on the one hand the USA seems to be worried about terrorists in Afghanistan 12,000 KM away, they have open arms to welcome millions of people pouring across the southern border of the USA having no idea who these people are and taking no steps to check out their background.  I personally would be far more worried about a terrorist who sneaks in to the USA and is now living in the USA then one hiding out in a cave in Afghanistan. 

[9S_]

35 minutes ago, Poolie said:

Trying to Americanise Afghanistan? Yeah, that'd fail. And it has.

It failed this weekend when Biden slept during his vacation in Camp David and after he negotiated in Moscow with freed Guantanamo Bay detainees (that he freed) about the withdrawal of US troops

Edited August 17, 2021 by 9S_
Hanging modifier

[Fluke]

18 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

Ok...We understand you are saying it is all Biden's fault and not any of Trump's. We are not going to change your mind. I differ in opinion. So be it.

Honestly, trying to win believers by repeating the same lists of the same or similar sentences over and over again is not going to prove anything except that you have either read from the Trump playbook or that I am experiencing some sort of Groundhog Day!

The USA failed in its 20 years quest to bring democracy to Afghanistan .

Failed to build an army that could keep the Talibann at bay .

Its a 20 year failure , not any one persons fault 

[Fluke]

8 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

It failed this weekend when Biden slept during his vacation in Camp David and after he negotiated with freed Guantanamo Bay detainees (that he freed) about the withdrawal of US troops in Moscow

Moscow ?

[mcambl61]

17 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

Ok...We understand you are saying it is all Biden's fault and not any of Trump's. We are not going to change your mind. I differ in opinion. So be it.

Honestly, trying to win believers by repeating the same lists of the same or similar sentences over and over again is not going to prove anything except that you have either read from the Trump playbook or that I am experiencing some sort of Groundhog Day!

Actually smithy, you are obviously in the trump derangement syndrome camp that deems him the worst thing since Satan. It is irrational and seated in hatred. 

 

Trump has been clear since the eighties that all these foreign wars were not necessary. And regardless of your hatred of trump, he is right. He has also been clear that the ridiculous nation building strategy has never worked and we get nothing but debt and death from it. He is right on this one too. 

 

But all the irrational emotional tds hatred aside, let's establish some irrefutable facts. 

 

The entire US foreign policy strategy from Vietnam through Afghanistan has been a complete failure, from both sides of the political aisle and the old school conventional war mongers in the pentagon and congress, all fueled by the corrupt military industrial complex and its revolving door to government. 

 

Trillions of dollars wasted, millions of lives destroyed. 

 

Politics interfere with allowing military leaders to completely decimate the enemy with ridiculous rules of engagement that do not allow us to be successful.

 

Any veteran will tell you that, as many of my friends have so many times. 

 

So, again. You infer trump would have been stupid enough to allow Bagram to be abandoned so we lose rapid response air support before drawing down all people who need to leave. 

 

That is what has allowed the taliban to move so swiftly. Dementia Joe is responsible for that stupid strategy. 

 

That is on obiden. Full stop. There is no hiding from this irrefutable fact. 

 

Own it. 

 

Stop the ridiculous trump hating theme and deal with the realities of the weak feckless obiden administration and their band of weak feckless apologists and appeasers. 

 

[mcambl61]

15 minutes ago, Fluke said:

The USA failed in its 20 years quest to bring democracy to Afghanistan .

Failed to build an army that could keep the Talibann at bay .

Its a 20 year failure , not any one persons fault 

Yes, it's the DC apparatus fault, all parts of the corrupt political establishment and the swamp that feeds off of it. 

[Smithydog]

17 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

Why is it so hard for you to see that Trump isn’t President? That Biden sent a delegation team in Moscow to negotiate the final withdraw of US forces with the Taliban? Trump may have signed a deal but it wasn’t ratified by the Senate and Biden didn’t have to abide by it like how ignored Trumps pull out of the Paris Climate Accords, Iran Nuclear Deal, Missile Treaty with Russia. 

Firstly, thank you. That was one of the better posts I have seen from you on this and helped break me out of my Groundhog Day

Personally, I feel President Biden has to accept a level of responsibility. After all, wasn't it a predecessor of his, Harry Truman, that had the sign on his desk "The Buck Stops Here".

However, I do think that it is a bit rich to fairly compare "responsibility" of President Biden with ex-President Trump. If we do that, then the bar for achievement of performance we are asking for as a Society would be rather low. To many of us, the former President did too often create the perception that he was never at fault, or it wasn't his responsibility and seemingly was always quick to blame others.

I haven't yet seen the latest speech by President Biden. He is a consummate politician so won't be surprised by elements of deflection if they occur. However also wouldn't also be surprised to eventually see some sort of "mea culpa" (perhaps not just yet) like the one Ronald Reagan offered after the Iran-Contra affair. It is often used by Politicians to help move on from a subject.

Never seen one used in the extent of the Partisan environment we see at the moment so not sure it would do much.

[vlad]

22 hours ago, longwood50 said:

You are so correct.  The USA has not won a war since WWII.  What is different?  Well they fire bombed Germany into rubble, and threatened to turn Japan into the stone age with the nuclear bomb. 

The Romans learned centuries ago that you can not occupy a hostile country and they leveled Israel and expelled all of its inhabitants.  

Whether Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan there was no basis for any of these wars.  I suspect in all of them it was the military industrial complex that gets wealthy making the components of war that pulled the levers to get the USA involved.  

If there is any lesson that should be learned is that in war there is no "measured response"  If you make the horrible decision to send your citizens into battle you should be there to destroy the enemy not manage it.  That would mean many innocent lives would get lost and hence the reason why war should be a last resort and only when there is no other alternative.  Of the 9/11 hijackers 15 were Saudi, 2 U.A.E, 1 Egyptian, and 1, Lebanese.  And who did the USA retaliate against.  Afghanistan and Iraq.  

Twenty years of human suffering, trillions of dollars and thousands of deaths of both USA citizens and Afghans.  As an American I am ashamed.  

Collin Powell former head of the military's Joint Chiefs said it best.  

"The military does only two things well 1. It kills people  2. It blows things up."

One thing is for sure, you can occupy but never defeat or govern a region that is hostile to you.  You would think our own history of kicking the British out hundreds of years ago would serve as a reminder.  But it doesn't. 

 



 

America did not win WW2 longwood50 They came in 2 years after it started, many commonwealth Country's joined into defeat the Reich not America alone.

[Poolie]

1 hour ago, 9S_ said:

It failed this weekend when Biden slept during his vacation in Camp David and after he negotiated in Moscow with freed Guantanamo Bay detainees (that he freed) about the withdrawal of US troops

You either missed or purposefully ignored the point.

[dmacarelli]

50 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

Actually smithy, you are obviously in the trump derangement syndrome camp that deems him the worst thing since Satan. It is irrational and seated in hatred. 

Trump has been clear since the eighties that all these foreign wars were not necessary. And regardless of your hatred of trump, he is right. He has also been clear that the ridiculous nation building strategy has never worked and we get nothing but debt and death from it. He is right on this one too. 

But all the irrational emotional tds hatred aside, let's establish some irrefutable facts. 

The entire US foreign policy strategy from Vietnam through Afghanistan has been a complete failure, from both sides of the political aisle and the old school conventional war mongers in the pentagon and congress, all fueled by the corrupt military industrial complex and its revolving door to government. 

Trillions of dollars wasted, millions of lives destroyed. 

Politics interfere with allowing military leaders to completely decimate the enemy with ridiculous rules of engagement that do not allow us to be successful.

Any veteran will tell you that, as many of my friends have so many times. 

So, again. You infer trump would have been stupid enough to allow Bagram to be abandoned so we lose rapid response air support before drawing down all people who need to leave. 

That is what has allowed the taliban to move so swiftly. Dementia Joe is responsible for that stupid strategy. 

That is on obiden. Full stop. There is no hiding from this irrefutable fact. 

Own it. 

Stop the ridiculous trump hating theme and deal with the realities of the weak feckless obiden administration and their band of weak feckless apologists and appeasers. 

I agree about the nation building thing. And I would say the American obsession with democracy is quite fake and insincere. That is about all we agree on.

 

 

[Fluke]

22 minutes ago, vlad said:

America did not win WW2 longwood50 They came in 2 years after it started, many commonwealth Country's joined into defeat the Reich not America alone.

Not to mention Russias efforts .

Russia played as much of a part in the defeat of Germany as the USA did , if not more

[mcambl61]

5 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

I agree about the nation building thing. And I would say the American obsession with democracy is quite fake and insincere. That is about all we agree on.

Americans are not obsessed with "democracy" that's why we are a constitutional Republic. 

 

Certainly the useless corrupt DC establishment, and the self serving "think tanks" are obsessed with foreign entanglements under the guise of bringing democracy to places while these same slimy swamp creatures enrich their lobbyists and their friends. 

These same fools are entrenched in the DC beltway. 

 

These same corrupt fools hated President trump, because he wanted to put an end to their corrupt policies. 

 

Biden is part of the same self serving DC corrupt establishment and he'll do whatever they tell him to do. 

[dmacarelli]

7 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

Americans are not obsessed with "democracy" that's why we are a constitutional Republic. 

Certainly the useless corrupt DC establishment, and the self serving "think tanks" are obsessed with foreign entanglements under the guise of bringing democracy to places while these same slimy swamp creatures enrich their lobbyists and their friends. 

These same fools are entrenched in the DC beltway. 

These same corrupt fools hated President trump, because he wanted to put an end to their corrupt policies. 

Biden is part of the same self serving DC corrupt establishment and he'll do whatever they tell him to do. 

I am continually fascinated by people who are convinced Trump was an honest, well intentioned man, who was above corruption. He nearly sold the entire national park, recreational and wilderness system to the highest bidder, for the sake of raping pristine wilderness of timber, oil, gas, minerals and anything else they could find and haul out. He sold out the US to China, by failing in his pathetic trade war. He kissed Kim's butt continuously, in a humiliating display of foolish naivety. He suckled on Putin like there was no tomorrow. He was absolutely unwilling to criticize or hold accountable MBS for his serial killing antics. He was a very weak politician. And a major loser. 

In reality, all he did was replace the existing 7 foot alligators with 14 foot crocodiles. The corruption in his administration was a rampant, a sheer nightmare for America. 

 

 

 

[gummy]

2 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

I am continually fascinated by people who are convinced Trump was an honest, well intentioned man, who was above corruption. He nearly sold the entire national park, recreational and wilderness system to the highest bidder, for the sake of raping pristine wilderness of timber, oil, gas, minerals and anything else they could find and haul out. He sold out the US to China, by failing in his pathetic trade war. He kissed Kim's butt continuously, in a humiliating display of foolish naivety. He suckled on Putin like there was no tomorrow. He was absolutely unwilling to criticize or hold accountable MBS for his serial killing antics. He was a very weak politician. And a major loser. 

In reality, all he did was replace the existing 7 foot alligators with 14 foot crocodiles. The corruption in his administration was a rampant, a sheer nightmare for America. 

Love the picture of the two of them on a horse. Possibly trotting off for a bit of watersports

[Stonker]

27 minutes ago, longwood50 said:

Perhaps but this notion that somehow the USA or any country can "nation build" is ludicrous.  The Romans learned 2,000 years ago with Israel that they could not stop the Jews from continually attacking them.  Their answer was to level the country, sell the Jews into slavery with the remainder of the population scattered around the world. 

We're probably not that far apart on Korea, but I have to disagree with you about  countries being unable to "nation build" as it's happened, including  "regime change" - all without it costing a penny or losing lives. 

 

An example that springs to mind is Oman, where the previous Sultan was "helped" to oust his father and to transform the country from a feudal monarchy to one that ended slavery, started a slow transition to democracy, and moved peacefully into the 20th century while still retaining its own culture and identity.

 

That simply wasn't possible with Afghanistan, though, at least not post 2000 - it could have been during the 1990's, but the US took its eye off the ball.

1 hour ago, longwood50 said:

 

If they were worried about terrorist cell training camps a better response would be to send in drone strikes and/or Seal Teams to surgically strike at encampments.  Perfect, NO.
1

 

All we agree on there is that it's definitely not "perfect"!   The only difference between drone strikes / Seal Teams and terrorism is that the former would be state sponsored.

 

The idea of "surgical strikes" sounds appealing, but in a foreign country it's still terrorism and inviting retaliation and repercussions.

 

I recall the NATO cruise missile strike on the RTS civilian TV studios in Belgrade in 1999 justified in part because they were broadcasting "propaganda" - would a terrorist car bomb outside the BBC, killing civilians, have been given the same leeway?

1 hour ago, longwood50 said:

However sending in troops only gives the terrorists more targets.  One thing is for sure, if there were not people in Afghanistan and Iraq who hated the USA and wanted to become terrorists before, the USA sure gave them ample reason after 2 decades of death and destruction. 

Agreed - there's no arguing with any of that!