Afghanistan Has Fallen

[Stonker]

8 hours ago, longwood50 said:

Of the 9/11 hijackers 15 were Saudi, 2 U.A.E, 1 Egyptian, and 1, Lebanese.  And who did the USA retaliate against.  Afghanistan and Iraq. 

Outstanding post,@longwood50, however much we may disagree on other things, although I disagree about Korea.

 

The only points I'd add were that you omitted that they trained and learnt to fly in the USA, and were funded through Germany.

Afghanistan had no input to 9/11 at all, and Iraq had less terrorists (at least before they were invaded) than anywhere else in the Middle East.

[PBS]

9 hours ago, 9S_ said:

I wonder how many provincial capitals were lost under Trumps watch? 
 

Biden bragged about withdrawing a month ago. He even touted that it’s his main foreign policy achievements. 
 

I though liberals and democrats care about people of color and women?? I guess they don’t care about the future rape of millions of Afghan women. 

Obviously you didn't comprehend my post. If you read the Afghanistan Papers you will learn all Administrations were bamboozled by US military and intelligence reports which falsely claimed progress in transitioning Afghan capability to face up to the Taliban. Do you know the vast majority of Afghan forces and illiterate, so one can clearly say the nail in the coffin was the withdrawal of specialist contractors for maintenance and repair.

Sadly it was long known the war was unwinnable with the policy and tactics of Western governments. So yes, Afghans opposing the Taliban will more than likely suffer terribly. Out of curiosity how many more Western military and other personnel, if you were a decision maker, would you sacrifice for an unwinnable war as an outcome of piss poor policy and ignorance across all Administrations to date?

[9S_]

8 minutes ago, PBS said:

Obviously you didn't comprehend my post. If you read the Afghanistan Papers

Written up to 2019

Biden assumed office in Jan 2021

The day before zero provincial capitals were lost to the Taliban. 
 

This happened under Biden only not Trump

[PBS]

1 hour ago, 9S_ said:

Written up to 2019

Biden assumed office in Jan 2021

The day before zero provincial capitals were lost to the Taliban. 
 

This happened under Biden only not Trump

Again you fail to comprehend. It is only conjecture / speculation if trump would have reversed his decision to withdraw all forces by 01/05/21 and resend sufficient force capability in late July to reverse the fall of provincial capitals / Kabul.

trump has been big noting himself in the past few days People seem to forget trump gave way to Taliban demands in 02/20 for no advantage whatsoever, in other words outplayed - the guy is full of BS.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by PBS

[9S_]

18 minutes ago, PBS said:

Again you fail to comprehend. It is only conjecture / speculation if trump would have reversed his decision to withdraw all forces by 01/05/21 and resend sufficient force capability in late July to reverse the fall of provincial capitals / Kabul.

trump has been big noting himself in the past few days People seem to forget trump gave way to Taliban demands in 02/20 for no advantage whatsoever, in other words outplayed - the guy is full of BS.

Strange I don’t see Trump in the White House when:

1. You have thousands rushing military cargo planes trying to escape Kabul, some even hanging onto wheels and dropping to their deaths

2. Taliban leadership armed with US weapons holding a press conference within the Afghan Presidential Palace

3. Taliban driving around in US Humvees, APC, anti-tank launchers, drones, Blackhawk helicopters and airplanes

4. US helicopters landing on buildings to evacuate people to the airport

5. The international airport being besieged by thousands of Afghan civilians

6. Teachers crying saying goodbye to female students because they know what is coming

7. CNN journalists donning the hijab when last week she work pants and vest

8. 5000 troops being sent back, then 1000, then an additional 1000

9. Apache helicopters flying low on the tarmac to prevent Afghan citizens from clinging to airplanes

10. US airplanes circling above Kabul because they can’t land

11. Having the airport shut down because US government under Joe Biden list control of it. 

12. All 34 provincial capitals fell under Joe Biden in less than one month

13. Taliban flag flying high all across Afghanistan 

14. Seeing escaped Afghans girls in India crying that all will be killed

Do you see Trump in the White House? Or do you see Joe Biden?? 
 

Well technically true they’re both not there. Joe Biden is vacationing in Camp David

 

and all you need to do it look at US history:

 

1. What happened when Biden/Obama made a hasty retreat from Iraq? ISIS, Yazidi massacre and genocide and an unprecedented refugee crisis

 

2. What happened when Biden/Obama killed Gadhaffi? Libyan civil war, return if Sharia law and open air slave markets

Edited August 17, 2021 by 9S_

[mcambl61]

10 minutes ago, PBS said:

Again you fail to comprehend. It is only conjecture / speculation if trump would have reversed his decision to withdraw all forces by 01/05/21 and resend sufficient force capability in late July to reverse the fall of provincial capitals / Kabul.

trump has been big noting himself in the past few days People seem to forget trump gave way to Taliban demands in 02/20 for no advantage whatsoever, in other words outplayed - the guy is full of BS.

Again, you fail to comprehend that the issue is not the withdrawal from the failed nation building in Afghanistan. It had to be done and should have been done long ago. 

 

The issue is that the drawdown must have maintained a functioning Bagram air base so that any advances by the taliban could be stopped by the air power we still had until Joe was involved. 

 

Own it. 

 

Biden is a career corrupt political hack and dementia ridden stooge. The entire DC think tank/foreign policy crowd are a joke. 

 

Trump was right about this and the entire DC apparatus, AGAIN. 

[mcambl61]

15 hours ago, Smithydog said:

Yes the final withdrawal has happened under President’s Biden watch. As blame is spread, I am sure there will be plenty spread around to many on both sides of the political agenda. I do find it a bit funny, when people claim it would have been so different under a continuation of the Trump presidency.

They obviously haven’t read his own words in a press release from his own office in April of this year. Some highlights.  “we can and should get out earlier.” “I made early withdraw possible” “Getting out of Afghanistan is a wonderful and positive thing to do.” “I planned to withdraw on May 1st”. Doesn’t sound that much would have been different. Just we would have been talking about it 3-4 months earlier!

 https://www.45office.com/news/statement-by-donald-j-trump-45th-president-of-the-united-states-of-america-04.18.21

The Taliban new the day would come when non-Afghan forces would leave. Unfortunately, it seems some, including US soldiers on the ground predicted it, as in this article from 2014.

 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2014/07/30/the-taliban-waiting-game-in-afghanistan-mapped-by-media-since-2009/

The Afghan people have seen foreign forces, in one form or another, come and go over centuries. Last time it was the Russians turn to understand the patient waiting game of ones locally seeking power and control. Now it is the turn of the Coalition forces to learn, not just the Americans.

My Opinion….. It is just another sad day in a series of seemingly never-ending power struggles for control of a long-suffering group of people.

Well, you certainly can't say that Trump's administration would have been stupid enough to not keep a functioning Bagram airbase that was able to respond to any taliban aggressions immediately. That airbase and the agreement that we would respond to any taliban aggressions with that air power is why the taliban did not move on the provincial capitals. Bagram should have been the last thing to demobilize, after destroying any weapons that could have been used by the taliban. 

All that changed once dementia Joe was "in charge" 

[RWD]

23 hours ago, kerryd said:

Wow.
Some people really need to learn some history.

Let me get you started:

Trump signed a deal (in Qatar) with the terrorists long before he lost (yes, lost) the election. That deal was signed in Feb 2020, when there were still about 13,000 American troops in Afghanistan.

"The Trump administration agreed to an initial reduction of its force level from 13,000 to 8,600 by July 2020, followed by a full withdrawal by May 1, 2021, if the Taliban kept its commitments"

That's right. Under Trump all the troops would have been out of the country months ago.

A part of the deal Trump made was that the US would no longer directly engage the terrorists.

Giving those terrorists free reign to train and equip and plan while Trump started reducing the number of troops in the country.

Between February and November, over 8,000 troops were sent back the USA, leaving barely 5,000 in Afghanistan.

Then, in November of 2020, Trump announced he was cutting that number by 50% !! (Look it up - the articles are from around 16 November 2020.)

That means when Biden took over, there were barely 2,500 American troops left in the whole country, including the ones guarding the Embassy and those still at the Bagram Air Base !

Yet some people want to blame Biden for the Taliban's success ?
As though those 2,500 troops would have made any difference at all ?

Not to mention that 5 days ago, American "Intelligence" estimated it would take the Taliban 3-12 months to take over.

Of course, almost no one (except me) was expecting the entire Afghan Army to immediately surrender the instant they saw any sign of anyone carrying a weapon.

I expected it because that is, literally, the history of war in Afghanistan. Whenever they have a war, when one side starts to lose, they will most often simply switch sides and start fighting for whoever they think is most likely to win.

Even if that's in the middle of a battle !! They will strike a deal with the "enemy" and then suddenly turn around and start attacking the people who were their friends and allies minutes earlier !

(The Afghan civil war that followed the Russian withdrawal was full of stories of warlords switching sides in the middle of battles.)

News articles over the last few days noted Army units simply surrendering and handing over their weapons and equipment without firing a shot.
Recent reports mentioned seeing Taliban fighters and Afghan Army soldiers mingling around the Kabul airport.

(Probably trying to find out where they've stashed all the alcohol and porn that gets confiscated by Customs.)

And yet some people think that the 2,500 soldiers Trump left in Afghanistan would have been able to stop the Taliban ?

Trump's deal with the terrorists in Feb 2020 set the stage for this to happen.

(BTW - I left the Canadian military, after 22 years of service, to go work in Afghanistan back in 2003. I ended up spending just over 10 years there.)

Calling the Taliban terrorists is a bit of a reality stretch.  The Mujihadeen were the real terrorists.  Which the Taliban then dealt to after seiziung power from the communists regime that was put in place when the Soviets left.  Taliban did not truly support Bin Laden, and were named "terrorists" to help justify the invasion.  but the truth is they took his money, and allowed him to hide in the mountains.  

 

[Smithydog]

7 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

Well, you certainly can't say that Trump's administration would have been stupid enough to not keep a functioning Bagram airbase that was able to respond to any taliban aggressions immediately. That airbase and the agreement that we would respond to any taliban aggressions with that air power is why the taliban did not move on the provincial capitals. Bagram should have been the last thing to demobilize, after destroying any weapons that could have been used by the taliban. 

All that changed once dementia Joe was "in charge" 

No I can’t, but then also the ex-administration could have easily done the same thing. Considering Mr Trump’s often displayed preference for not spending money on anything outside the USA, it is reasonable he may not have maintained it either.

Even if he stated he did, with his seemingly endless change of position on things at times he may well have made the decision, changed it again and again. Too late now for any statement by him now on the matter as it would only be seen as self serving and inconsistent with what he previously said.

Mind you that hasn’t stopped him on other subjects, so I await with interest, as always, for his next comment.

[NumbNut]

1 hour ago, RWD said:

Calling the Taliban terrorists is a bit of a reality stretch.  The Mujihadeen were the real terrorists.  Which the Taliban then dealt to after seiziung power from the communists regime that was put in place when the Soviets left.  Taliban did not truly support Bin Laden, and were named "terrorists" to help justify the invasion.  but the truth is they took his money, and allowed him to hide in the mountains.  

Too bad we can't ask some Afghani women whether they consider the Taliban to be terrorist or not.

The Taliban are terrorists. They hand the terror out to their own citizens

[mcambl61]

1 hour ago, Smithydog said:

No I can’t, but then also the ex-administration could have easily done the same thing. Considering Mr Trump’s often displayed preference for not spending money on anything outside the USA, it is reasonable he may not have maintained it either.

Even if he stated he did, with his seemingly endless change of position on things at times he may well have made the decision, changed it again and again. Too late now for any statement by him now on the matter as it would only be seen as self serving and inconsistent with what he previously said.

Mind you that hasn’t stopped him on other subjects, so I await with interest, as always, for his next comment.

Actually, there were clear rules for the transition and clear consequences for violating them

 

That is the entire point. The taliban did not move to take over provincial capitals while trump was in office. They knew what would happen, and that is why Bagram was key to that approach. 

 

Bagram should have been the last thing to be disarmed and abandoned until all citizens were able to get out. 

 

It really is that simple. This is squarely on the incompetent stooge Biden and the administration of weakness and stupidity. 

 

Obviously you are another member of the liberal orange man bad squad. But regardless of what you think of his personality, his policies are largely consistent and the best bet to serve the interests of the United States and their own citizens.  The elite political leaders of the world hate those policies. 

 

 

[Poolie]

10 hours ago, JamesE said:

I had it pointed out to me by @Stonkerthat the Iran version came after the Afghanistan version. So, I stand corrected. I found that both of them derived from an earlier threat from General Curtis LeMay in 1967/68-ish regarding North Vietnam which itself was poached from Art Buchwald, an American humorist, from a still earlier column. What tangled webs we weave.

Yeah, it just shows how going around the world pointlessly bombing everywhere is............well...........pointless.

[Zool]

Bobblehead Biden reads a teleprompter, blaming everyone but himself about Afghanistan,  then runs away without taking questions from the press...

 

 

[thai3]

Can the clown be impeached for incompetence and being unfit for office?

[Poolie]

14 hours ago, Benroon said:

With every 'Own it' I cringed a bit more !

Yes, awful. So American.

However they dont 'own' Afghanistan any more.

[Smithydog]

16 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

It really is that simple. This is squarely on the incompetent stooge Biden and the administration of weakness and stupidity. 

Obviously you are another member of the liberal orange man bad squad. But regardless of what you think of his personality, his policies are largely consistent and the best bet to serve the interests of the United States and their own citizens.  The elite political leaders of the world hate those policies. 

I actually do think Biden and his administration on this one issue have stuffed up. But thank you for your opinion of me. But to clarify, I am neither a member of the suggestive squad you refer to, equally as I am not a member of the cult of Trump. Both suggest extremism at either end of the political structure and to me, are equal barriers to the calm and intelligent debate most sensible people really seek.

Many countries across the world are suffering because of the failed policies of governments across the world not just the US. Partisanship has become so extreme in many countries, to the point that Politicians are branded with distrust from their commencement. This means that even potentially good sensible and widely acknowledged policies from either side get attacked by the extremes. That is how we have become.

As to Trump, I have a personal opinion of him as a Leader as I do Biden and other politicians on both sides. All have egos that need stroking from time to time, some more than others, and in doing so, often forget why they are there.

As to his policies, some I agree with and some I don't. A simple as that!

[Benroon]

14 minutes ago, Poolie said:

Yes, awful. So American.

However they dont 'own' Afghanistan any more.

Hahaha 

[dmacarelli]

Nobody really knows what was spent in Afghanistan. The US figures are fake. Cheney had a resolution passed, back in the day, that essentially allowed the US to fight the wars in both Afghanistan and Iraq "off the books". The real number is likely several trillion in Afghanistan, and a comparable amount in Iraq. For what? Though the intentions for Afghanistan were reasonable, in Iraq they were diabolical. 

So, what has been achieved? And why does the US continue with it's foreign policy blunders, and why does it not seem capable of learning from history? Sheer hubris? Arrogance? Ignorant neocon ideas?

So many lives lost. Few like the Taliban, and fewer liked Hussein. But, this? 

The blame has to be distributed equally. Bush Jr., (Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney, and the other spectacularly ignorant men in that regressive group of idiots) Trump and Biden. At a minimum, it would have made sense to leave a few thousand specialists and some equipment in and around Kabul. After all, decades later, the US still has a presence in Germany, Japan, and South Korea. 

 

 

[9S_]

7 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

The blame has to be distributed equally. Bush Jr., (Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney, and the other spectacularly ignorant men in that regressive group of idiots) Trump and Biden

When Bush, Obama and Trump left the White House, Afghanistan had a functioning democracy. In a country that suffered under brutalizations of Taliban, only under Trump, Bush and Obama did girls could go to school, you had girl mayors, girl lawmakers, girl lawyers, girl judges and politicians. 
 

All of this wiped out in less than 1 year under one man, Joe Biden. 
 

All of the provincial capitals fell under his watch. Kabul fell while he was on vacation. All those photos of people escaping the Taliban happened yesterday, August 16 2021. Who is in the White House right now?

Technically no one since Joe is out camping. But he is the US President now who slept as Afghanistan fell

[Poolie]

3 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

When Bush, Obama and Trump left the White House, Afghanistan had a functioning democracy. In a country that suffered under brutalizations of Taliban, only under Trump, Bush and Obama did girls could go to school, you had girl mayors, girl lawmakers, girl lawyers, girl judges and politicians. 
 

All of this wiped out in less than 1 year under one man, Joe Biden. 
 

All of the provincial capitals fell under his watch. Kabul fell while he was on vacation. All those photos of people escaping the Taliban happened yesterday, August 16 2021. Who is in the White House right now?

Technically no one since Joe is out camping. But he is the US President now who slept as Afghanistan fell

Yeah but who sanctioned all the murder? In fact who did a fair share of the murdering?

You're doing the typical American distraction tactic. Who decided to inflict America on Afghanistan and why? Thats what should be asked. Not who decided to leave with their trousers round their ankles.

I seem to remember it was the liar Bush GW.

[PBS]

3 hours ago, mcambl61 said:

Again, you fail to comprehend that the issue is not the withdrawal from the failed nation building in Afghanistan. It had to be done and should have been done long ago. 

The issue is that the drawdown must have maintained a functioning Bagram air base so that any advances by the taliban could be stopped by the air power we still had until Joe was involved. 

Own it. 

Biden is a career corrupt political hack and dementia ridden stooge. The entire DC think tank/foreign policy crowd are a joke. 

Trump was right about this and the entire DC apparatus, AGAIN. 

QAnon supporter?

[9S_]

Just now, Poolie said:

Yeah but who sanctioned all the murder? In fact who did a fair share of the murdering?

You're doing the typical American distraction tactic. Who decided to inflict America on Afghanistan and why? Thats what should be asked. Not who decided to leave with their trousers round their ankles.

I seem to remember it was the liar Bush GW.

I remember watching Afghanistan hold two presidential elections. Is that not a victory?

 

I remember watching videos of girls going to school, seeing Afghan female politicians from mayors to national legislators. Was that a failure?

 

I remember watching a newscasts in America talking about how Afghans were all on the rage of an “American-idol” show in Afghanistan, women singing in damn fine sexy clothing. Did we fail then?

 

Or did we fail when Afghan teenagers born after the initial invasion held a breakdancing competition?

Did we fail when all provincial capitals were firmly held in Kabul’s hands?

Or did we fail:

When US intelligence and the Pentagon warned Joe Biden that this current scenario we are seeing now will happen?

When we just got up and left Begram Airbase in the dead of night? Not even notifying the Afghan government or security forces

When Joe Biden blocked foreign mechanics from servicing the Afghan Air Force in its fight against the resurgent Taliban?

When citizens besieged the airport, clinging to dear life to escape Kabul?

When Joe Biden camped at Camp David and blamed everyone but himself, despite being a US Senator and Vice President for nearly a decade of the Afghan war?

 

Up until last year life seemed good for the Afghans where one female Afghan journalists talking about attending a film festival just last week

 

[PBS]

3 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

I remember watching Afghanistan hold two presidential elections. Is that not a victory?

I remember watching videos of girls going to school, seeing Afghan female politicians from mayors to national legislators. Was that a failure?

I remember watching a newscasts in America talking about how Afghans were all on the rage of an “American-idol” show in Afghanistan, women singing in damn fine sexy clothing. Did we fail then?

Or did we fail when Afghan teenagers born after the initial invasion held a breakdancing competition?

Did we fail when all provincial capitals were firmly held in Kabul’s hands?

Or did we fail:

When US intelligence and the Pentagon warned Joe Biden that this current scenario we are seeing now will happen?

When we just got up and left Begram Airbase in the dead of night? Not even notifying the Afghan government or security forces

When Joe Biden blocked foreign mechanics from servicing the Afghan Air Force in its fight against the resurgent Taliban?

When citizens besieged the airport, clinging to dear life to escape Kabul?

When Joe Biden camped at Camp David and blamed everyone but himself, despite being a US Senator and Vice President for nearly a decade of the Afghan war?

Up until last year life seemed good for the Afghans where one female Afghan journalists talking about attending a film festival just last week

trump is responsible for the ultimate failure of US efforts in Afghanistan by announcing withdrawal of all US forces, together with his utterly stupid decision making e.g. (no Afghan government involvement with the Doha Agreement). After Doha, Taliban were still busily murdering Afghan politicians, civilians and Afghan security forces. trump administration, along with all other US administrations totally failed to take into account Afghan culture and society structure in their decision making.

You and a few others are using the same tactic as trump, 'look there' deflection.

[Fluke]

48 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

. At a minimum, it would have made sense to leave a few thousand specialists and some equipment in and around Kabul. After all, decades later, the US still has a presence in Germany, Japan, and South Korea. 

The U.S. kept its army in those Countries AFTER the war had been won and the other Country surrendered and they kept numerous large military bases in those Countries . 

   The Taliban were never defeated or surrendered and a few thousand U.S troops wouldnt have been able to combat the 70 000 odd Taliban fighters  and they wouldnt have been able to stop the fall of Kabul

[dmacarelli]

53 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

When Bush, Obama and Trump left the White House, Afghanistan had a functioning democracy. In a country that suffered under brutalizations of Taliban, only under Trump, Bush and Obama did girls could go to school, you had girl mayors, girl lawmakers, girl lawyers, girl judges and politicians. 
 

All of this wiped out in less than 1 year under one man, Joe Biden. 
 

All of the provincial capitals fell under his watch. Kabul fell while he was on vacation. All those photos of people escaping the Taliban happened yesterday, August 16 2021. Who is in the White House right now?

Technically no one since Joe is out camping. But he is the US President now who slept as Afghanistan fell

Were you actually stationed on site, or are you taking the ever reliable Fox News word for it?