I Am Ashamed of the UK

[Rookiescot]

  On 11/14/2023 at 10:50 AM, PhuketBloke said:

"ESTHER McVey has made a shock return to the Cabinet as Rishi Sunak's "common sense tsar" tasked with tackling the scourge of wokery", according to some newspaper items. 

Great, let's get rid of all this political correctness crap and get back to plain speaking. 

At the moment until she gets her feet under the desk you are not allowed to call people muppets, it might hurt their feelings as it is not wokery.

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The problem with the right wing is they like to hand it out but as soon as someone calls them a name they turn into screaming skulls calling for it to be banned. 

[PhuketBloke]

  On 11/14/2023 at 11:13 AM, Rookiescot said:

The problem with the right wing is they like to hand it out but as soon as someone calls them a name they turn into screaming skulls calling for it to be banned. 

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The prob with the lefties is if democracy does not work in their favour they moan non-stop, Brexit for example.

[PhuketBloke]

  On 11/13/2023 at 2:21 PM, oldschooler said:

Yet he was the only unifying “ big beast” of the Tories. He got an 80 seat Tory Majority.

Churchill no angel either……. who is at that work / level ?  Irrelevant to National Interest in fact. 

He destroyed the Corbynite Hamas- Loving Jew -Hating Marxists  at the ballot box and public mind.

 He also got the optimum Brexit Done. 
Undone by having a piece of cake etc. Absurd. 

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Times must be bad, I actually agree with you for once. 

Regarding the cake (and Beer), I asked some people working in London if people during those times were having beers in the office, the response was more or less, if we are working together all day, what difference would it make if we had a beer in our hand while having a break in the coffee room together.

Edited November 14, 2023 by PhuketBloke
typo

[cowslip]

  On 11/14/2023 at 1:17 PM, PhuketBloke said:

The prob with the lefties is if democracy does not work in their favour they moan non-stop, Brexit for example.

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THat's precisely what democracy is about - silencing  people who criticise is anti-democratic - nincompoop!

[Rookiescot]

  On 11/14/2023 at 1:17 PM, PhuketBloke said:

The prob with the lefties is if democracy does not work in their favour they moan non-stop, Brexit for example.

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The problem with the right is they ignore the election result and demand to stay in power, Trump for example.

[PhuketBloke]

  On 11/14/2023 at 1:33 PM, cowslip said:

THat's precisely what democracy is about - silencing  people who criticise is anti-democratic - nincompoop!

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In that case let us not have a vote and let them decide who is and is not elected, erm hang on we used to have that, it was called the European Unelected leader system, and it was shortened to just "EU".

Then we left, I think democracy was the tool. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by PhuketBloke
typo

[cowslip]

  On 11/14/2023 at 1:44 PM, PhuketBloke said:

In that case let us not have a vote and let them decide who is and is not elected, erm hang on we used to have that, it was called the European Unelected leader system, and it was shortened to just "EU".

Then we left, I think democracy was the tool. 

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So no more voting? How democratic is that?

"onelected" - you don't knoe how democracy works do you?

How about Cameron? - Not even an elected MP - he's in the house of Lords!!

[PhuketBloke]

  On 11/14/2023 at 1:38 PM, Rookiescot said:

The problem with the right is they ignore the election result and demand to stay in power, Trump for example.

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But democracy won thought and he was out.

[PhuketBloke]

  On 11/14/2023 at 1:45 PM, cowslip said:

So no more voting? How democratic is that?

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Exactly my point. 

[cowslip]

  On 11/14/2023 at 1:47 PM, PhuketBloke said:

Exactly my point. 

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S0 you don't understand how a democracy works?

Boris, Truss Sunak  none was elected PM - they were appointed by the party. Exactly the same way the EU parliament works.

[Rookiescot]

  On 11/14/2023 at 1:46 PM, PhuketBloke said:

But democracy won thought and he was out.

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Do you agree that Biden won the election which was free and fair?

[23RD]

  On 11/14/2023 at 1:17 PM, PhuketBloke said:

The prob with the lefties is if democracy does not work in their favour they moan non-stop, Brexit for example.

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Good point PB those Remainers even wanted a redo of the vote and  that Gina Miller Cow she's gone back under her rock now.

[oldschooler]

  On 11/14/2023 at 2:54 AM, Pinetree said:

He was undone by being a lying, duplicitous, scum bag, who broke laws he put in place, but didn't understand. His intelligence, such as it is, never matches his ego.  He should stick to the entertainment industry, where he can be the theatrical clown that he is. And I was a life long Tory; no longer. 

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Right. So just ignore his massive achievements then. .. because he’s flawed.

In same way as all top leaders anywhere and certainly in Politics.

You are demonstrating UK version of Trump Derangement Syndrome.

Like US DemocRats failing to pursue Abraham Accords because started successfully by Trump. 

He certainly wasn’t a “clown” or “ entertainer”. 

Far better than those useless female “ leaders” like May & Truss. 
Who else around would have done a better job ?
 

[23RD]

Just imagine how bad The UK would have been if that Marxist had got into No 10.

[PhuketBloke]

  On 11/14/2023 at 1:51 PM, cowslip said:

S0 you don't understand how a democracy works?

Boris, Truss Sunak  none was elected PM - they were appointed by the party. Exactly the same way the EU parliament works.

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But the members of parliament were elected, the ones who voted for them.

It is democracy if a democratically elected government wants to get rid of crap leaders, although Boris was a good leader. 

But generally, in the UK the PM stays through to the end of their term.

No one believes in the democracy of the EU which is why so few people even bother to vote in EU elections.

[PhuketBloke]

  On 11/14/2023 at 1:54 PM, Rookiescot said:

Do you agree that Biden won the election which was free and fair?

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Well if you and the rest of the doubters have any evidence then show us, I am sure the Chinese and the Russians would pay well for that concrete information.

I expect it is a case of democracy and the voting system is great if my party wins and as corrupt as hell when they don't. 

It is a bit like fortune tellers saying they can predict the future yet none of them have ever won the lottery. 

[cowslip]

  On 11/14/2023 at 2:23 PM, PhuketBloke said:

But the members of parliament were elected, the ones who voted for them.

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So are the members of the EU parliament.

Love to see what you say about PR. - no actually I wouldn't because you just don't know anything. Where did you you learn this nonsense - bar stool?

[Rookiescot]

  On 11/14/2023 at 2:28 PM, PhuketBloke said:

Well if you and the rest of the doubters have any evidence then show us, I am sure the Chinese and the Russians would pay well for that concrete information.

I expect it is a case of democracy and the voting system is great if my party wins and as corrupt as hell when they don't. 

It is a bit like fortune tellers saying they can predict the future yet none of them have ever won the lottery. 

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It's a simple question.

Did Biden win.

You see this is a very easy method of finding out who is a MAGA cult member who we all know will never be reasoned with.

Did Biden win?

Yes or no?

[PhuketBloke]

  On 11/14/2023 at 2:32 PM, cowslip said:

So are the members of the EU parliament.

Love to see what you say about PR. - no actually I wouldn't because you just don't know anything. Where did you you learn this nonsense - bar stool?

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"So are the members of the EU parliament."

True in a way but as I said very few people bother to vote for the EU members as they have no belief in the system and so the UK left the EU in order to govern ourselves locally not from some distant land.

PR is the worst system to have, with governments changing every five minutes due to the collapse in coalition parties with no party ending up with a majority in many cases, then nothing ever gets done.

It leads to gridlock, and no way for a government to carry out coherent policies to name a few faults of the system.

Where did you learn your childish attempt at personal insults from, a toadstool?

[PhuketBloke]

  On 11/14/2023 at 2:41 PM, Rookiescot said:

It's a simple question.

Did Biden win.

You see this is a very easy method of finding out who is a MAGA cult member who we all know will never be reasoned with.

Did Biden win?

Yes or no?

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No, he did not win, I have the proof showing he is an alien from Mars in disguise and has the power to fiddle with the voting system in the USA. 

But in any case, I do not really care what goes on in the USA anyway, it is not my problem. 

[cowslip]

  On 11/14/2023 at 2:57 PM, PhuketBloke said:

No, he did not win, I have the proof showing he is an alien from Mars in disguise and has the power to fiddle with the voting system in the USA. 

But in any case, I do not really care what goes on in the USA anyway, it is not my problem. 

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  On 11/14/2023 at 2:51 PM, PhuketBloke said:

"So are the members of the EU parliament."

True in a way but as I said very few people bother to vote for the EU members as they have no belief in the system and so the UK left the EU in order to govern ourselves locally not from some distant land.

PR is the worst system to have, with governments changing every five minutes due to the collapse in coalition parties with no party ending up with a majority in many cases, then nothing ever gets done.

It leads to gridlock, and no way for a government to carry out coherent policies to name a few faults of the system.

Where did you learn your childish attempt at personal insults from, a toadstool?

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When someone is incapable of understanding the fundamentals and bases their arguments of falshoods there is no argining with themIn his essay "How to Argue with an Idiot," Christopher Hitchens uses ridicule to expose the flaws in the arguments of creationists and other religious fundamentalists.

If you really think not that you voting is an argument against democracy....well. need I say more?

[cowslip]

  On 11/14/2023 at 2:51 PM, PhuketBloke said:

not from some distant land.

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Geography yet another subject you skipped at school?

[Karolyn]

  On 11/14/2023 at 3:06 AM, Vigo said:

.You obviously know nothing about the topics as poofterism  has been around ever since Chaucer was writing about some lady and her shallots . It was part of Cambridge's fabric and the male secretions from past centuries are ever present in the student lodgings. As for abortions, the Europeans were inventing potions and methods to terminate pregnancy since women were pregnant. Perhaps you could direct your morality to preventing sexual relations between adults and minors.

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Homosexuality was not a problem in Ancient Greece or Feudal Japan, no. But things do have contexts surrounding them. These societies did not have gay identities or 'cultures', let alone any politicised forms of them. They did not attack the fabric of society, like Western homosexuality does.

Single issues do not exist as islands. They take place in a context. Modern western homosexuality, is asociated to abortion, no fault divorce, and what else. What MENTALITY underlies these common positions? What arguments do these people share? 

This brings me to anotger point. LGBTs are very self-oriented, a symptom of Late Capitalism. That is the sickness, at the societal level. 

Greek and Germanic law codes criminalised homicides, but its debatable that there was true anti-murder legislation, in the modern sense: unlike the Roman law, a homicide resulted in a compensatory payment only. So its not surprising there was no 'abortion is murder' sentiment there - which certainly doesn't imply approval.

For example, the Lombard law expected wergeld as a price for killing a foetus, equal to that for any other murder. This is not an imitation of Roman law, which had no such provisions. The Lombard law code regarded the unborn as 'infans', not as 'partus'.

Regardless the Roman disapproval of abortion, the human foetus was not a legal person; this woukd impact other legislatipn, on such matters of inheritance. Frankish law took a middle path, modifying the Germanic tradition of foetal personhood, in combination with the pragmatism of delaying personhood, until a short period delayed after birth.

Foeticide was not a category, it was (again) early infanticide. Frankish innovated that a child without a name, before 9 days postpartum, was not a person. Personhood was a legal matter, a foetus and a neonate were not entitled to their own wergeld or compensation.

Germanic law codes were written at a time when Germanics were christianising, and assimilating to the Roman people they conquered. Nonetheless the Germanic and Latin left different legacies, in the forms of punishment. So that both cultures law codes regarded abortifacients as poisons/witchcraft, but whereas the Roman-based law might demand blinding or execution for the criminal, the Germanic-based laws would demand wergeld.

Also whereas it has been suggested the Old Testament strongly influenced the Gothic and similar laws, demanding compensation for violent abortion ('the foetus is as its mother' s thigh') the ancient Hebrew law refers to accidental cause of miscarriage, whereas the Germanic to deliberate, violent assault.

Lombard law specifically protected thrall girls from violent, forced abortion incurred by blows from tbeir social superiors: such behavior must have been a problem, one that the Germanic tribes were attempting to curtail by legislation.

Roman law was promarily concerned witb abortion through poisoning or witchcraft. The Church hostility to abortion, came from educatedq emperors such as Augustus, schooled in philosophy, and concerned with demography. The sale of abortifacients was criminalised not only as a potential danger to foetusrs that might be sentient, but more importantly, to the women risking death or sterility.

Again a difference between Germanic and Roman law, is that Roman law did not punish the woman seeking abortion. Gothic law did, doubtless because Germanic women had more autonomy than their Latin peers. Women were not able to hide behond their gender, when they were regarded as autonomous actors, and not morally passive. In passing i will note that wergeld paid for the death of a woman, was higher than that for the death of a man. 

Also Gothic laws regarded a difference between the killing of a formed emvryo, and one in the process of formation. Both were illegal, in Roman and Germanic laws. However Roman law did not codify a distinction. Some law codes of the Germanic tribes, did.

The Old English did not appropriate the extreme laws against herbalists and 'witches', simply for selling potions. However the standard Germanic law against violent abortion was present in England, and to cause the death of a foetus was plsinly an pinjury, a matter of wergeld. 

I have concentrated on Germanics and the contrast with Roman law, during andcright after the volkswanderung. But the Greeks had the same attitude as the Germanics, as regards compensation. Early Semites too - ie. Hammurabi's Code and the Old Testament - measure the punishment as a compensatory system. Persians however sentenced all parties involved in an abortion to death. Egyotians mummified the deceased unborn. 

The Assyrians despised abortion so much, that if a woman died during an abortion, her body would be violated. If a man struck a woman and caused her to miscarry, he was sentenced 'to be struck with the same number and type of blows, on the principle of a life for a life'. In other words, execution by beating. Compared to earlier Mesopotamia, this was strict indeed.

Peiple didn't understand modern embryology back then. So as a window onto ancient, mexieval, and early modern attitudes to abortion, consider that historical Judaism did not even consider women to be pregnant, until 40 days (almost 6 wks) after conception. The child simply needed time to 'form' before it could exist in any sense. 

Elizabeth Tetlow argued that abortion was a public offence against the pagan state, and that abortion is an act against innocent blood. The state would suffer as a result of the shedding of innocent blood, ie. the greater community suffers, as a result of one person's wrongs. So no, our ancestors and predecessors did NOT, in fact, endorse abortion. 

As to 'adults and minors', such legislation is ahistorical. The traditional Germanic end of childhood was at 12 (the 13th year) or simply at 13.. The modern age of consent criminalises and discourages, fertile young people from motherhood. The same zeitgeist encourages young women to delay motherhood until > 30. When in fact, women's fertility is past peak by that age, and national fertility is below replacement in WIERD and other postindustrial cultures.

[Pinetree]

  On 11/14/2023 at 2:05 PM, oldschooler said:

Right. So just ignore his massive achievements then. .. because he’s flawed.

In same way as all top leaders anywhere and certainly in Politics.

You are demonstrating UK version of Trump Derangement Syndrome.

Like US DemocRats failing to pursue Abraham Accords because started successfully by Trump. 

He certainly wasn’t a “clown” or “ entertainer”. 

Far better than those useless female “ leaders” like May & Truss. 
Who else around would have done a better job ?
 

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That just says to me that some people are prepared to put up with anything in their elected representatives, including criminal law breaking, just so long as they delivery something they want.  That's the short road to political corruption and even dictatorship.  Politicians need to be held to at least as high a moral and law abiding standard as the general public.  The idiot Boris fails on that standard and his buffoonery is beyond acceptable.  I can name at least a dozen MPs who would have done a better Job, one of whom has just been sacked by that other nonentity, the PM and one who recently resigned as the Defence Secretary. 

[Vigo]

  On 11/14/2023 at 1:38 PM, Rookiescot said:

The problem with the right is they ignore the election result and demand to stay in power, Trump for example.

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Please. The USA is  special. Just as Italy is special. The UK parliamentary system works, and one has not seen the situation you describe in English derived parliamentary systems. As bad as the politicians may get in the UK, Australia, New Zealand and Canada,  the rules and laws are respected, even by nationalist SNP in Scotland and BQ independentists in Canada.

  On 11/14/2023 at 1:45 PM, cowslip said:

So no more voting? How democratic is that?

"onelected" - you don't knoe how democracy works do you?

How about Cameron? - Not even an elected MP - he's in the house of Lords!!

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Cameron's appointment is permitted. Unusual, but allowed. He is still accountable. The government which appointed him, is subject to a public mandate at election time. The reality and I doubt anyone would deny it, that this is a temporary measure until the next election. The PM needs someone experienced to get the government back on tracks. Cameron has the experience and the qualifications to do the job and I doubt anyone else as qualified would accept a 6-12 month temporary job like this.

  On 11/14/2023 at 2:41 PM, Rookiescot said:

It's a simple question.

Did Biden win.

You see this is a very easy method of finding out who is a MAGA cult member who we all know will never be reasoned with.

Did Biden win?

Yes or no?

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Biden is the  legally designated President of the USA. Even  the most hardcore followers of Trump recognize that. That is all that matters. Once the US Congress certified the election,  Biden legally won the presidential election. And really, whether he won or not, the issue is not germane to the thread. In fact, Trump and MAGA have no bearing on this  subject.