News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[NorskTiger]

6 hours ago, Alavan said:

Why were those coastal waters mined? To obstruct the iron ore traffic from Narvik to Germany. Never though about that?

Norvegian shipping committed to the SU… where did (and ships from other nations) they load the ammo, tanks, trucks, etc to discharge in Murmansk? And where was it al fabricated?

 Norway was a NEUTRAL nation at the time the mining started. Is it common practice for the UK to impede sea commerce of neutral nations? Of course I know about the Kiruna mines. Today, they support 90-94 % of the steel to EU.  

  In the Nordic nations, there are a third in staunch oppostion to EU and a little bit less than a fourth in warm emprace of it. In the middel we have about half the people who are uncommitted. Would they prefer to follow the haughty way of the British might is right; or desire to keep their people an egalitarian one? 

    The battle of the Nordic minds are going on as we speak. YOU can only demonize, bully and lecture about your superiority and expect us to eat that up. 

    The Nordic nations would keep the 7th largest EEZ in the world and a hiuge chunk of natural resources and the world's most egalitarian and educated people. All you can do is remain stuck on Sir Frances Drake or Nelson. 

[NorskTiger]

3 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Why would they need to hold a referendum?

Represented governments derive their authority from being elected in the first place. It's their job to make those decisions and do what is best for the country. If you don't like their decision, you vote them right back out of office and let the next elected official reverse or modify the decision.

The very idea they should hold a referendum runs contrary to being an elected official. You are expecting them to willingly give up power? Comical to say the least.  

Referendums are a way to reinforce the willingness of the politicians to listen to their people. You prefer a state where politicians are given all power after short electorial campaigns. 

  Referendums are quite common in Norway. TWICE, we voted NO to join the EU. If it were up to you, our people's will would be denied. Even the brits let the Brexit go to referendum. Of course, now, so many Eurocrats say their politicians were "miscalculating" by allowing one to begin with. 

[NorskTiger]

9 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Yeah Norway could have done that ….and had their ships seized or sunk by UK as they did to traitor French fleet…

So to the UK, anyone who does not dance to their tunes are "traitors". Nothing new there. The UK destroyed the Danish-Norwegian fleet even during the Napoleonic wars simply because they did not want to join the Brit side, but wanted to remain neutral. 

    I see nothing has changed in the view of the repulsive mind of British "strategists". 

    Do you ever think it is possible the world is sick of people like yourself telling others what to do? 

[EdwardV]

32 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

Referendums are a way to reinforce the willingness of the politicians to listen to their people. You prefer a state where politicians are given all power after short electorial campaigns. 

  Referendums are quite common in Norway. TWICE, we voted NO to join the EU. If it were up to you, our people's will would be denied. Even the brits let the Brexit go to referendum. Of course, now, so many Eurocrats say their politicians were "miscalculating" by allowing one to begin with. 

Referendums are used when politicians are too afraid to make the decision themselves. If your politician needs a referendum to understand what the people want, they are not listening in the first place.

Some countries don't even allow them at the national level. Do either Sweden or Finland? 

[NorskTiger]

19 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Referendums are used when politicians are too afraid to make the decision themselves. If your politician needs a referendum to understand what the people want, they are not listening in the first place.

Some countries don't even allow them at the national level. Do either Sweden or Finland? 

Sweden and Finland have both had referendums. 

    No, referendums are well-thought of displays of genuine respect for the people. Elections come and go and opinion polls change from month to month. 

        You don't seem very informed here, do you?...

[HolyCowCm]

1 hour ago, NorskTiger said:

and HERE, is another example of why the increasing part of the world nations do not exactly warm up to the thought of supporting the arrogant and haughty anglo-americans.

    from Zimbabwe to the Solomons; Manali to Montevideo and Havana to Hanoi, the world is waking up thte fact that the American empire with it's tiny UK lapdog dragged along is nothing but a fraud. 

Yeah the USA does have an Empire, but it is only The Empire State Building and there is no King Kong.

You just seem hateful of the USA and the UK and many supporters in the alliance, and it is a shame. I have read some of your posts from when you first started, then with some inbetween in and out till now. USA is not perfect by far, but they are a people made up of all sorts of nationality different people from around the world. If you did not have the USA and its friend alliances like now for things like this as is in a weir Nato, then you can immagine that this world would be controlled from communist dicators and their regimes and quite now I am far grasp reaching out at a streching statment, that maybe - possibly also a bigger Muslim force to reckon with. 

Any of the such, America and its allies (not puppy dogs) don't deserve the full bad rap you are throwing out there. I really wish there was not ever any need to have armies and militaries for any country except for the use for them to all join together in repelling the coming of the evil space aliens. But this is not the case as money and power for dictators and thug regimes absolutely corrupts. throw in gangs and mafiaa in that group as well, as these sort of people think human life is cheap and peoples life's are generally irrelevant. 

We all need to get better as  world united society, but it is the Putins, the XI's and Kim Jong-uns and the Min Aungs who seem to go over the top. The heavily armed dangerous ones with mass destruction weapons and thirst to conquer attitudes at any price that cross boundaries and borders.

Now if you have a better way as a plan how the world's countries (with their leaders) can and would coexist with on another with peace, then you are my hero. Until then I see that maybe you might be with the wrong country based on your negativity and should be careful of what you think. Probably asked of you before, but what percent of your natives think and act like you? Just curious. USA is filled with a bunch of odd idiots, so there will always be huge divides in the USA, that is unless there is cause to stamp out a bigger enemy in which they just become Americans again as joined. No one wants to invade the USA as too many gun owners there, but then name a country any country and there is something wrong. Well except maybe Bhutan. Anyway, take it easy. Cheers!

 

[Fanta]

8 minutes ago, HolyCowCm said:

Until then I see that maybe you might be with the wrong country bhased on your negativity and should be careful of what you think

Always this line isn’t it. “You don’t deserve to live in your own country so move”   “You don’t deserve to call yourself an American/Englishman etc!”
Really? Debate the points. don’t attack the speaker. 

[HolyCowCm]

1 minute ago, Fanta said:

Always this line isn’t it. “You don’t deserve to live in your own country so move”   “You don’t deserve to call yourself an American/Englishman etc!”
Really? Debate the points. don’t attack the speaker. 

Ummm, no and it wasn't said that way Fanta. It's like saying a carnivore may not be in the right place if the carnivore is primarily surrounded by vegetarians. Maybe better to stay with ones of own type. I then asked what the others in his country same percent that think the same way he does. I think it is not as the same attitude of the greatest moral majority in his country but I never said otherwise for what you are accusing me of writing as saying. 

Always this line? Come on, and this was only addressing him and his cutting out at the US, unlessi misread his post. But its ok and I will bow out and let you handle the, er um, debate as you like to call it. I am for the USA and its allies and the Nato alliance in suporting the Ukraine in every way immaginable to defeat the little big man Czar. And most Americans probably are too. 

I havent lived in the USA for decades now. Maybe what you said is what I did and moved.

[EdwardV]

33 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

  No, referendums are well-thought of displays of genuine respect for the people. Elections come and go and opinion polls change from month to month. 

Referendums are a sign you can't do your job. Nothing more, nothing less. It's called passing the buck.

Neither Finland or Sweden allow binding referendums. Basically a referendum in those countries is just a suggestion to the government. In other words, an official opinion poll. Pretty sure at this point, they already know what their people want. It's called NATO. 

That last part of your post which I didn't quote ... right back at ya. 

[Fanta]

45 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Referendums are a sign you can't do your job. Nothing more, nothing less. It's called passing the buck.

Like Brexit ? Sorry.. I couldn’t resist that one. 

[EdwardV]

17 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Like Brexit ? Sorry.. I couldn’t resist that one. 

Arguably the perfect example, and best of all can be used by either side hahaha

[Fanta]

The UN has released their first statement about the ruckus in Ukraine.

 

The UN Security Council, including Russia, has expressed "deep concern regarding the maintenance of peace and security of Ukraine" in a statement — but failed to use the words "war", "invasion" or "conflict"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-07/ukraine-russia-war-updates-putin-zelenskyy-mariupol-kyiv/101046526

Is this the first rumblings of a bigger rumble to come? Or just more talk, no action? 

 

[oldschooler]

3 hours ago, NorskTiger said:

So to the UK, anyone who does not dance to their tunes are "traitors". Nothing new there. The UK destroyed the Danish-Norwegian fleet even during the Napoleonic wars simply because they did not want to join the Brit side, but wanted to remain neutral. 

    I see nothing has changed in the view of the repulsive mind of British "strategists". 

    Do you ever think it is possible the world is sick of people like yourself telling others what to do? 

You don’t understand. WW2 Free Norway exiled Govt. in London had placed all their remaining free resources under UK control.
So yes any of those resources not complying were traitors to their lawful govt. and enemy, subject to corrective military action.

That Danish fleet could not be allowed to fall into Napoleons hands or use,  threatening UK naval supremacy & blockade.

War is not a playground game for children with “ dancing to tunes” or” telling others what to do “. Most serious business of survival & winning & staying free.
 

Whole free countries were recognized as Neutral in WW2 but not remnants of defeated occupied countries.Vichy France fought with Nazis so yes their forces outside France were destroyed by UK who alone at that time fought on against Hitler.

You do know that Norway sends UK every year a giant Xmas Tree in gratitude for UK WW2 support and liberation  ? Do they do same to next door Russia ? No, they don’t. 

[oldschooler]

3 hours ago, Fanta said:

Always this line isn’t it. “You don’t deserve to live in your own country so move”   “You don’t deserve to call yourself an American/Englishman etc!”
Really? Debate the points. don’t attack the speaker. 

Indeed but these critics of free powerful countries never move to the tyrannies they adore do they? Just defending tyrants from their safe free democratic spaces.

[oldschooler]

37 minutes ago, Fanta said:

The UN has released their first statement about the ruckus in Ukraine.

The UN Security Council, including Russia, has expressed "deep concern regarding the maintenance of peace and security of Ukraine" in a statement — but failed to use the words "war", "invasion" or "conflict"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-07/ukraine-russia-war-updates-putin-zelenskyy-mariupol-kyiv/101046526

Is this the first rumblings of a bigger rumble to come? Or just more talk, no action? 

UN a failed discredited ineffective body. A talking shop giving platforms for posturing tyrants. Needing UN Watch bodies to remind it of its original charter. 

[Smithydog]

13 hours ago, NorskTiger said:

Bah, nonsense of you to just come up with another "poll". Such things are not determined by the "independent" pollsters, but by people after lengthy debates. 

   Yes, our politicians and our bureaucrazy apparatus are all-in with regarfds to their bothlicking of NATO, but so are they with regards to needing the mighty FIAT dollar and no dare to think outside. 

    However, our PEOPLE are not such mere mindless pawns as you are trying to portray. 

   Stoltenberg is the head of NATO, isn't he? SO what does he have to do with Norway now? He is a puppett as much as they come and a willing pawn to do anything as long as some sheep dog barks loud enough. 

    You have no ability of cabability to make me go anywhere. I will continue to take part in the larger debate about the future role of Norway and believe that once this conflict is over (unless we have nuclear war), more heads will wake up and realize what we have been doing. Our nation and especially our region in north is much much more dependent upon a doable relationship with Russia, something puppetteers like yourself want to deny us at any cost.  

     You and your empire are on borrowed time and you will NOT drag us down with you. More and more people are waking up to this madness. 

   Nobody here believes for a second NATO will opt to send a single troop here as long as there is a war with Russia. Our membership in NATO is mostly political tokenism, just as it is never going to do anything, but cause death and destruction to our lands. 

My empire? My country has no empire and never has. Your arguments seem to be developing more and more a commonality of no basis in history or knowledge, and a failing in spelling it seems when you try and insult others.

Well here is a Norwegian perspective on Russia. Perhaps he is better qualified to speak on Russia. But then perhaps Lars Rowe won't meet your exacting standards despite being a PhD, a Norwegian historian of Soviet and Russian history and Director of Norway’s Resistance Museum.

https://www.highnorthnews.com/en/dnipro-putins-rubicon-norwegian-perspective

I actually count quite a few Norwegians amongst my friends. Personally I respect and trust their judgements far more than someone who would seek to demean his/her own people by calling them no better than a wooden toy.

Some free debating advice. Perhaps if you spent more time presenting a supported argument rather than inane attempts to inflame conversations and adopting a style of "poor me" syndrome, then perhaps your arguments might gain greater traction. Respect is earnt not given and you have done nothing to earn a minuscule amount of respect from me yet, unlike several others on this Forum who present contrary arguments to my own.

But then all I am is a "Puppeteer" in your eyes. How do you feel being a wooden toy?

 

[oldschooler]

4 hours ago, EdwardV said:

Referendums are used when politicians are too afraid to make the decision themselves. If your politician needs a referendum to understand what the people want, they are not listening in the first place.

Some countries don't even allow them at the national level. Do either Sweden or Finland? 

Your feed been hacked ? Is this really you, “Edward V “ ? If so, this is a most surprising anti- democratic statement !

Referendums are the purest form of democracy. Direct rule of voters “ permitted” by elective govt. occasionally on very important issues. 

Many European countries hold them.

That some nations don’t allow them is reprehensible as this denies true democracy at its fundamental level. 
Certainly all North European nations have held them ! 

[oldschooler]

2 hours ago, EdwardV said:

Arguably the perfect example, and best of all can be used by either side hahaha

Brexit = Liberation; Scotland Independence = Resounding NO ( Twice). Immigration=Regrettably Never Held 

[oldschooler]

4 hours ago, EdwardV said:

Referendums are used when politicians are too afraid to make the decision themselves. If your politician needs a referendum to understand what the people want, they are not listening in the first place.

Some countries don't even allow them at the national level. Do either Sweden or Finland? 

NO. Used in democracies where elected politicians CANNOT make such decisions without exceeding their mandate. Elected Reps do NOT have absolute power.

How could Parliament decide on Leaving EU after joining was decided by Referendum ? Or whether Scotland should be Independent ?

Clearly it rationally could not hence binding Referendums held. 

[oldschooler]

5 hours ago, NorskTiger said:

 Norway was a NEUTRAL nation at the time the mining started. Is it common practice for the UK to impede sea commerce of neutral nations? Of course I know about the Kiruna mines. Today, they support 90-94 % of the steel to EU.  

  In the Nordic nations, there are a third in staunch oppostion to EU and a little bit less than a fourth in warm emprace of it. In the middel we have about half the people who are uncommitted. Would they prefer to follow the haughty way of the British might is right; or desire to keep their people an egalitarian one? 

    The battle of the Nordic minds are going on as we speak. YOU can only demonize, bully and lecture about your superiority and expect us to eat that up. 

    The Nordic nations would keep the 7th largest EEZ in the world and a hiuge chunk of natural resources and the world's most egalitarian and educated people. All you can do is remain stuck on Sir Frances Drake or Nelson. 

ANY critical material exposed at sea going to enemies is a legitimate target.

You don’t condemn Germany for invading “ neutral” Norway or Norway for supplying iron ore to Hitler then, only UK for defending Free World Civilization.

Your weird anti- West adoration of Tyrants is AGAIN Revealed. 

No wonder you are “ outed” continually here as a Putin Puppet / SVR Agitator / Russian Propagandist. 

[oldschooler]

5 hours ago, NorskTiger said:

You mean, why does the Swedish and FInnish government rush this through without running it through a referendum if the support among the people is so overwhelming?

When the savage wolf is at your door threatening “ destruction” for daring to talk of joining NATO , there is clearly no time for “national referendums”

Elected Govts. must ACT promptly.

Opinion Polls no doubt taken into account.

[Fester]

6 hours ago, NorskTiger said:

So to the UK, anyone who does not dance to their tunes are "traitors". Nothing new there. The UK destroyed the Danish-Norwegian fleet even during the Napoleonic wars simply because they did not want to join the Brit side, but wanted to remain neutral. 

    I see nothing has changed in the view of the repulsive mind of British "strategists". 

    Do you ever think it is possible the world is sick of people like yourself telling others what to do? 

No, just sick of gobs like you thinking the world is as warped as you are.

[Smithydog]

3 hours ago, Fanta said:

The UN has released their first statement about the ruckus in Ukraine.

The UN Security Council, including Russia, has expressed "deep concern regarding the maintenance of peace and security of Ukraine" in a statement — but failed to use the words "war", "invasion" or "conflict"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-07/ukraine-russia-war-updates-putin-zelenskyy-mariupol-kyiv/101046526

Is this the first rumblings of a bigger rumble to come? Or just more talk, no action? 

Sadly, because of the power of the veto of the 5 permanent members, statements have to be watered down and usually are not reflective of the intense overall feelings of the majority of members of the Security Council. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_veto_power

It highlights why UN reform is so needed so it can truly act as a body uninfluenced by such procedural restrictions by anyone.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Smithydog
typo

[CamPat]

Did all this start back when George W.Bush was President of the US and the World Trade Center was hit by 2 Terrorist Planes ? He said: (to the rest of the World) You are either with US or with the Enemy. Nobody back than thought that the Rest of the World was seen as a potential Enemy in the Wars coming up. With Joe Biden we see at least that he stuck to his speach at the US: No more relentless Wars - relentless negotiations instead ! Haha, that was right after the US lead Nato feld Afghanistan. Smart move by Biden anyway because he is now delivering what Trump promoted. No boots on the Ground but sell more US Weapons. Trump started that even right after Kashoggi was murdered in the Saudi Embassy in Turkey. Biden uses Europe for his proxy war and makes the Money Trump was dreaming about. Selling massive amounts of weapons. Now this is a real PEACE MAKER that will be remembered in History. The ultimate weapon of mass destruction is now: SANCTIONS ! There isn't a soul on the Horizon that promotes a PEACE Deal. This Idiot Zelensky simply keeps sacrificing his own people. Negotiations ? Ha, he got orders !

 

 

 

[Fester]

2 hours ago, CamPat said:

Did all this start back when George W.Bush was President of the US and the World Trade Center was hit by 2 Terrorist Planes ? He said: (to the rest of the World) You are either with US or with the Enemy. Nobody back than thought that the Rest of the World was seen as a potential Enemy in the Wars coming up. With Joe Biden we see at least that he stuck to his speach at the US: No more relentless Wars - relentless negotiations instead ! Haha, that was right after the US lead Nato feld Afghanistan. Smart move by Biden anyway because he is now delivering what Trump promoted. No boots on the Ground but sell more US Weapons. Trump started that even right after Kashoggi was murdered in the Saudi Embassy in Turkey. Biden uses Europe for his proxy war and makes the Money Trump was dreaming about. Selling massive amounts of weapons. Now this is a real PEACE MAKER that will be remembered in History. The ultimate weapon of mass destruction is now: SANCTIONS ! There isn't a soul on the Horizon that promotes a PEACE Deal. This Idiot Zelensky simply keeps sacrificing his own people. Negotiations ? Ha, he got orders !

More garbage for the bin men.