News Forum - UKRAINE UPDATES: Russia relents, Ukraine offers concessions at Turkey peace talks; Amnesty decries Russian war crimes

[Fanta]

6 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Besides the fact Russia cut China off from purchasing their best weapons about two years ago (and for good reason too). You are looking at it from the wrong direction. It doesn’t matter what China is to Russia, but what Russia is to China. Russia is China’s 12th largest trading partner. Guess who is number one and two. The US and EU. Trade with the US is worth about $570B to $87B for Russia. Economically China can’t do without the US (the last major consumption driven economy in the world) or the EU. Russia not so much. They won’t  risk sanctions from the US and EU. 

Russia cut off China from purchasing their best weapons? LINK? 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1102702/countries-where-russia-is-a-major-arms-supplier/

https://www.csis.org/analysis/changing-nature-and-implications-russian-military-transfers-china

Even if it was true, wouldn’t the reduction of exports to China means that Russia has access to their own best weapons? And that the line touted by some that “Russian troops are using outdated equipment” is propaganda or wishful thinking at best? But I digress. 

And sanctions? 2 sides to that argument as detailed below. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/16/how-much-can-and-will-china-help-russia-as-its-economy-crumbles.html

The US is not the only consumer country in the world and it has a stupefying debt to China. Maybe that marker will be called in one day which will probably lead to war. Sanctions could be the baby steps to a demand to pay up but I am not an economist so I don’t know. 

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Russia cut off China from purchasing their best weapons? LINK? 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1102702/countries-where-russia-is-a-major-arms-supplier/

https://www.csis.org/analysis/changing-nature-and-implications-russian-military-transfers-china

Even if it was true, wouldn’t the reduction of exports to China means that Russia has access to their own best weapons? And that the line touted by some that “Russian troops are using outdated equipment” is propaganda or wishful thinking at best? But I digress. 

And sanctions? 2 sides to that argument as detailed below. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/16/how-much-can-and-will-china-help-russia-as-its-economy-crumbles.html

The US is not the only consumer country in the world and it has a stupefying debt to China. Maybe that marker will be called in one day which will probably lead to war. Sanctions could be the baby steps to a demand to pay up but I am not an economist so I don’t know. 

The Chinese banks have stopped lending to Russia and Belarus.

The Chinese have abstained at the UN on everything regarding Russia and the Ukraine. Does that sound like support?

China Russia: 4 ways China is quietly making life harder for Russia - CNN

 

[Stardust]

12 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Russia cut off China from purchasing their best weapons? LINK? 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1102702/countries-where-russia-is-a-major-arms-supplier/

https://www.csis.org/analysis/changing-nature-and-implications-russian-military-transfers-china

Even if it was true, wouldn’t the reduction of exports to China means that Russia has access to their own best weapons? And that the line touted by some that “Russian troops are using outdated equipment” is propaganda or wishful thinking at best? But I digress. 

And sanctions? 2 sides to that argument as detailed below. 

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/16/how-much-can-and-will-china-help-russia-as-its-economy-crumbles.html

The US is not the only consumer country in the world and it has a stupefying debt to China. Maybe that marker will be called in one day which will probably lead to war. Sanctions could be the baby steps to a demand to pay up but I am not an economist so I don’t know. 

It is cut off just by the fact they cannot produce or deliver it anymore. We are not in the 30s anymore where the Russian could produce indepently it is 2022 and they cannot produce any tech product without supply from Europe! And I guess what it means even they would start now to develop their own semi conductor or chips. They would need 30 years to come on a nowaday point, a lot of money and the capable people for it and they are rare. Just check out what it means to produce semi conductor and why even China couldn't do it til today and is a importer. 

So all you are talking is just from the leftover from their stocks and with this level of lost of equipment/Aircrafts/tanks/etc I guess they will not deliver anything!

[EdwardV]

20 minutes ago, Fanta said:

The US is not the only consumer country in the world and it has a stupefying debt to China. Maybe that marker will be called in one day which will probably lead to war. Sanctions could be the baby steps to a demand to pay up but I am not an economist so I don’t know. 

Here is your link: 

https://tfiglobalnews.com/2021/07/23/russia-will-not-sell-its-new-jet-checkmate-to-china/amp/

The US is the only advanced country left that consumption driven, all the rest are export driven. The difference being a consumption lead country consumes more than it produces (therefore importing a lot of goods). A highly prized trading partner to say the least. While an export driven country produces more than it consumes (therefore must export the balance). One doesn’t preclude the other. 
 

China can’t call in the debt, that’s not how it works. China purchases treasury bonds, and the US treasury pays them when due. You can’t demand payment early. What you can do is sell them on the open bond market. China has threatened to do so a few times but never followed through. Want to know why? Because China would have to sell them at a discount, the only one losing money on the deal would be china. Not the US government as they still pay the same on the due date and not before. Want to know something else. While China owns more than any other country, it’s still small in comparison to the total. The total value of US treasury bonds sold on the open market every two weeks is larger than the total owned by China. If China actually did sell them all at once, there would be a line out the door to snap them up. Hence why China never follows through on the threat. 

[Fanta]

24 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

The Chinese banks have stopped lending to Russia and Belarus.

The Chinese have abstained at the UN on everything regarding Russia and the Ukraine. Does that sound like support?

China Russia: 4 ways China is quietly making life harder for Russia - CNN

The Asian Investment Bank is not a Chinese bank. The bank has stopped lending money for infrastructure development to a country at war stating it was “in the best interests of the bank”. Gasp, shock, horror! Hardly a condemnation or a sanction. Also noted in the article is that China hasn’t denied access to the Russians yuan reserves and Russia’s gold reserves aren’t even mentioned. China has not implemented any sanctions. It’s just business as usual. 

[Fanta]

13 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Here is your link: 

https://tfiglobalnews.com/2021/07/23/russia-will-not-sell-its-new-jet-checkmate-to-china/amp/

The US is the only advanced country left that consumption driven, all the rest are export driven. The difference being a consumption lead country consumes more than it produces (therefore importing a lot of goods). A highly prized trading partner to say the least. While an export driven country produces more than it consumes (therefore must export the balance). One doesn’t preclude the other. 
 

China can’t call in the debt, that’s not how it works. China purchases treasury bonds, and the US treasury pays them when due. You can’t demand payment early. What you can do is sell them on the open bond market. China has threatened to do so a few times but never followed through. Want to know why? Because China would have to sell them at a discount, the only one losing money on the deal would be china. Not the US government as they still pay the same on the due date and not before. Want to know something else. While China owns more than any other country, it’s still small in comparison to the total. The total value of US treasury bonds sold on the open market every two weeks is larger than the total owned by China. If China actually did sell them all at once, there would be a line out the door to snap them up. Hence why China never follows through on the threat. 

You said best weapons. One new type of fighter is hardly the same. My point stands - Russia to China military weapons sales are still going strong. The economic stuff? As I said already I am not an economist, so I’ll take your word on it. Despite the accusations by the “kill ‘em all, let God sort them out” crowd I am not pro Putin or anti Ukraine.  I have only said 2 controversial things that made some posters pause in  daubing their faces in Ukrainian war paint long enough to mash out an angry reply on their, hopefully spittle proof, keyboards. 1) All sides are using propaganda 2) a peace plan is in Ukraine best interests. And you never answered my question about the peace plan….

[Stardust]

15 minutes ago, Fanta said:

The Asian Investment Bank is not a Chinese bank. The bank has stopped lending money for infrastructure development to a country at war stating it was “in the best interests of the bank”. Gasp, shock, horror! Hardly a condemnation or a sanction. Also noted in the article is that China hasn’t denied access to the Russians yuan reserves and Russia’s gold reserves aren’t even mentioned. China has not implemented any sanctions. It’s just business as usual. 

Ok lets talk about reality the Russiand federations were before the Sanctions and Invasion at 1,3 % of the worlds gdp now for sure it will be much lower, Europe, USA and the allied countries including Asia pacific (Japan, Australia etc) is over 60% of the worlds gdp. And when you talk about China just compare volume of trading between Russia and China or between Europe or just Germany and China. Now just check out how much tech China only from Germany they import to operate their productions in China.

That are realities

Russias gdp is just like a tiny small country like Belgium. Russia is a tiny regional power in the world stage economically! Thats a fact! Even with their gas and oil they cannot beat a country in Europe!

[Fanta]

2 hours ago, Stardust said:

Ok lets talk about reality the Russiand federations were before the Sanctions and Invasion at 1,3 % of the worlds gdp now for sure it will be much lower, Europe, USA and the allied countries including Asia pacific (Japan, Australia etc) is over 60% of the worlds gdp. And when you talk about China just compare volume of trading between Russia and China or between Europe or just Germany and China. Now just check out how much tech China only from Germany they import to operate their productions in China.

That are realities

Russias gdp is just like a tiny small country like Belgium. Russia is a tiny regional power in the world stage economically! Thats a fact! Even with their gas and oil they cannot beat a country in Europe!

no link? Here you go, you’re welcome. 

Russia #12 in the world at 1.67 trillion. Belgium #24 at 553 billion.

Thailand #25 at 547 billion

Ukraine #57 at 147 billion

https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-by-gdp 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Fanta
Added figures

[Noble_Design]

I think discussions and points and arguments must be based on facts and not just an outburst because we are emotional about certain things. I applaud some of the posters here with their factual data and links etc while others are just borderline ridiculous.

Yes we all are angry with Russia and what they did at Ukraine but let's call a spade a spade. If their economy is of certain size (definitely not Belgium's) then let's just say it as it is. And to claim that their military is so decimated and weak that they can't even take on the tiniest EU countries (Andorra, Liechtenstein etc) is also absurd. Those who make these sort of claims are just making a fool of themselves unfortunately.

Guys, don't be like Will Smith - don't let emotions get the better of you.

[Marble-eye]

6 minutes ago, Noble_Design said:

I think discussions and points and arguments must be based on facts and not just an outburst because we are emotional about certain things. I applaud some of the posters here with their factual data and links etc while others are just borderline ridiculous.

Yes we all are angry with Russia and what they did at Ukraine but let's call a spade a spade. If their economy is of certain size (definitely not Belgium's) then let's just say it as it is. And to claim that their military is so decimated and weak that they can't even take on the tiniest EU countries (Andorra, Liechtenstein etc) is also absurd. Those who make these sort of claims are just making a fool of themselves unfortunately.

Guys, don't be like Will Smith - don't let emotions get the better of you.

Do you think that you could give us all an example of the posts that are troubling you, then maybe we could accommodate you a little better, thanks.

[Stardust]

25 minutes ago, Fanta said:

no link? Here you go, you’re welcome. 

Russia #12 in the world at 1.67 trillion. Belgium #24 at 553 billion.

Thailand #25 at 547 billion

Ukraine #57 at 147 billion

https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/countries-by-gdp 

Now take Germany/ Europe the size of Russia and their industrial power in compare. Now take in percantage world gdp compare Europe, USA etc. 

Still a nobody Russia

Sure I am to lazy now to list all countries as europe/ eu or Nato members etc are a lot

Russia is a nobody and not in the g7 !

Fact.

Then just take Belgium and Netherland 2 tiny countries together and they are over Russia! 

About all countries eu, europe , Nato,USA , allies etc everybody can use google because it is too much links because you have to count countries like Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea, etc etc ,too

Anyway it is over 60% of the world gdp compare to the federations before the sanctions of 1,3 % worlds gdp

I guess you not even know how small and tiny Belgium is and then compare to Russia it shows very good what kind of laughable economy Russia has in compare.

[Rookiescot]

3 hours ago, Fanta said:

The Asian Investment Bank is not a Chinese bank. The bank has stopped lending money for infrastructure development to a country at war stating it was “in the best interests of the bank”. Gasp, shock, horror! Hardly a condemnation or a sanction. Also noted in the article is that China hasn’t denied access to the Russians yuan reserves and Russia’s gold reserves aren’t even mentioned. China has not implemented any sanctions. It’s just business as usual. 

The US, UK and a number of other nations have been involved in several wars of late and at no time did any of these banks stop lending money to them gasp shock horror!

China has not said it will give access to the Russians yuan reserves and is unlikely to do so for the reasons listed in my link.

The article is literally called "4 ways China is quietly making life harder for Russia" and yet you still maintain its all business as usual.

You my friend are dancing on the head of a pin here.

[Stardust]

1 hour ago, Noble_Design said:

I think discussions and points and arguments must be based on facts and not just an outburst because we are emotional about certain things. I applaud some of the posters here with their factual data and links etc while others are just borderline ridiculous.

Yes we all are angry with Russia and what they did at Ukraine but let's call a spade a spade. If their economy is of certain size (definitely not Belgium's) then let's just say it as it is. And to claim that their military is so decimated and weak that they can't even take on the tiniest EU countries (Andorra, Liechtenstein etc) is also absurd. Those who make these sort of claims are just making a fool of themselves unfortunately.

Guys, don't be like Will Smith - don't let emotions get the better of you.

Comon countries from europe are in the G7 and Russia is not and are tiny compare to Russia in size or population and just compare the numbers of the Nato units in Europe, troops, aircrafts, warships, armored vehicles etc to Russia and that are not all armies and units in Europe.

People who tell us every day about mighty Russia what isn't in the reality and just fairy tales are bit emotional and really absurd!

[Fanta]

36 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

The US, UK and a number of other nations have been involved in several wars of late and at no time did any of these banks stop lending money to them gasp shock horror!

China has not said it will give access to the Russians yuan reserves and is unlikely to do so for the reasons listed in my link.

The article is literally called "4 ways China is quietly making life harder for Russia" and yet you still maintain its all business as usual.

You my friend are dancing on the head of a pin here.

You claimed that “Chinese banks were not lending money to Russia”. Problem is that it is one bank, not banks, and it is not even a Chinese bank. Fact Check failed.

And now you say China won’t give access to Russian yuan reserves. Again to quote from your graciously supplied link  

Russia's finance minister Anton Siluanov said this week that the country wanted to use yuan reserves after Moscow was blocked from accessing US dollars and euros, according to Russia's state media.

The PBOC has so far not made any comment about its position regarding these reserves.

 

You, my friend, are making claims that your own sources do not confirm. 

[Fanta]

1 hour ago, Transam said:

Think you just got all emotional.......

The point made was less emotion, more facts. The undeniable truth is that the Western media is overwhelmingly supportive of Ukraine and anti Russia. However, instead of listing facts and backing them up with credible links, some posters become emotional and make claims and  assumptions that are easily debunked using the Western media. Less crying, more trying.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Fanta

[Marble-eye]

4 minutes ago, Fanta said:

The point made was less emotion, more facts. The undeniable truth is that the Western media is overwhelmingly supportive of Ukraine and anti Russia. However, instead of listing facts and backing them up with credible links, some posters become emotional and make claims and  assumptions that are easily debunked using the Western media. Less crying, more trying.

But when a poster makes blind claims without pin pointing the posts that he/she has a problem with is that just as equally as bad as suggesting that a post is unverified.

Would it not be better to ask the poster at the time of its posting to supply some facts to support the post.

In a war many of the figures are just guesstimates anyway. How can anyone know for sure how many dead bodies are buried under a structure that the Russians have just blown up, you cannot, all we do know is that there shouldn't be any loss of lives to any Ukrainians and there wouldn't have been if the Russians hadn't invaded in the first place.

[Rookiescot]

38 minutes ago, Fanta said:

You claimed that “Chinese banks were not lending money to Russia”. Problem is that it is one bank, not banks, and it is not even a Chinese bank. Fact Check failed.

And now you say China won’t give access to Russian yuan reserves. Again to quote from your graciously supplied link  

Russia's finance minister Anton Siluanov said this week that the country wanted to use yuan reserves after Moscow was blocked from accessing US dollars and euros, according to Russia's state media.

The PBOC has so far not made any comment about its position regarding these reserves.

You, my friend, are making claims that your own sources do not confirm. 

Read it again. It outlines WHY China is not going to do that.

And its not just one bank. Its also Chinese state banks.

Chinese State Banks Restrict Financing for Russian Commodities - Bloomberg

 

[Fanta]

5 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

But when a poster makes blind claims without pin pointing the posts that he/she has a problem with is that just as equally as bad as suggesting that a post is unverified.

Would it not be better to ask the poster at the time of its posting to supply some facts to support the post.

In a war many of the figures are just guesstimates anyway. How can anyone know for sure how many dead bodies are buried under a structure that the Russians have just blown up, you cannot, all we do know is that there shouldn't be any loss of lives to any Ukrainians and there wouldn't have been if the Russians hadn't invaded in the first place.

Not it is not. Look at how many posts in the last Ukraine update thread were deleted and edited before the mods gave up and locked the thread. Posters should supply links verifying any claims they make as facts. This is a forum rule, and also common sense, otherwise threads dissolve into accusations of falsehoods and demands for proof. Truth is the first casualty of war and  war time casualty figures are propaganda but few can seemingly can agree on that. “And there wouldn’t be any casualties if the Russians hadn’t invaded in the first place” No-one is denying that fact however stating it continuously adds no weight to a discussion. It is stating the obvious that is already acknowledged and does not support or justify weak claims. These are discussion forums, not justification threads. Less crying, more trying. 

[oldschooler]

7 hours ago, Fanta said:

China is not in Russias corner? You better tell Winnie the Pooh in China that because he signed a 99 paragraph pledge to support with Russia days before the invasion. 
https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/russia-and-china-unveil-a-pact-against-america-and-the-west 
 

That was before Xi saw the massive sanctions coming China’s way if he or anyone materially supports Russia.

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Not it is not. Look at how many posts in the last Ukraine update thread were deleted and edited before the mods gave up and locked the thread. Posters should supply links verifying any claims they make as facts. This is a forum rule, and also common sense, otherwise threads dissolve into accusations of falsehoods and demands for proof. Truth is the first casualty of war and  war time casualty figures are propaganda but few can seemingly can agree on that. “And there wouldn’t be any casualties if the Russians hadn’t invaded in the first place” No-one is denying that fact however stating it continuously adds no weight to a discussion. It is stating the obvious that is already acknowledged and does not support or justify weak claims. These are discussion forums, not justification threads. Less crying, more trying. 

We are providing links.

However you either dismiss them as western propaganda or quote a tiny part of the linked article to justify your own position while ignoring the rest of it.

A while ago you were asked to provide a link confirming your claim that China was supplying weapons to Russia. You still havent done that. 

[Marble-eye]

2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Not it is not. Look at how many posts in the last Ukraine update thread were deleted and edited before the mods gave up and locked the thread. Posters should supply links verifying any claims they make as facts. This is a forum rule, and also common sense, otherwise threads dissolve into accusations of falsehoods and demands for proof. Truth is the first casualty of war and  war time casualty figures are propaganda but few can seemingly can agree on that. “And there wouldn’t be any casualties if the Russians hadn’t invaded in the first place” No-one is denying that fact however stating it continuously adds no weight to a discussion. It is stating the obvious that is already acknowledged and does not support or justify weak claims. These are discussion forums, not justification threads. Less crying, more trying. 

Thank you for your verbosity, if you or anyone else needs proof of the sometimes obvious ask and you will receive, it is no good waiting weeks greeting over posts you should have mentioned on day 1 now is it.

"And there wouldn’t be any casualties if the Russians hadn’t invaded in the first place” No-one is denying that fact however stating it continuously adds no weight to a discussion"

But that is the most obvious part of any debate, it will always play a major part of any debate and attempting to sweep it under the carpet to try and make your arguments more believable will not work I'm afraid.

We are not talking of a 50 - 50 blame game here, most people would agree that the Russians are way in the lead on that score here. 

[Fanta]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Read it again. It outlines WHY China is not going to do that.

And its not just one bank. Its also Chinese state banks.

Chinese State Banks Restrict Financing for Russian Commodities - Bloomberg

You claimed that Chinese banks were not lending to Russia. That was proven false.  And now you post a new article, not the source you provided, so read what again?  This new article talks about US dollar backed letters of credit to purchase Russian exports. Yuan backed letters of credit are still available to clients wishing to purchase Russian exports. Talk to EdwardIV about this so he can explain it to you. I know little of financing etc. And the Russian oil and gas is still flowing. 

[oldschooler]

7 hours ago, Fanta said:

Who said anything about long term occupation?  I was referring to Mariupol. After the civilian population is evacuated, via the agreed human corridor, who is left? Answer - the Ukrainian armed forces. Mariupol will not become another Stalingrad. The Russian Air Force controls the skies and the Navy controls the port. They will flatten the place. Sad but true. Look at a map. 
And “boots on the ground” is a simple acknowledgement that there are a lot more Russians than Ukrainians and that NATO and non NATO countries talk the talk but they are loath to walk the walk. 

NATO doing all possible from day one. 
NATO ain’t risking WW3 over Ukraine.

NATO support is bleeding Russia Dry.

In Ukraine not in NATO. Deliberate.

NATO will wreck Russian Forces in Ukraine if they step one meter inside NATO lands. 

NATO & Ukraine will not tolerate any more Russian Belligerance & Clear Nonsense. All Talking with Liars Done.

Zelensky just parroting back Russian “ Diplomacy”, mocking fool Putin.

Russia can have Peace when they leave  every meter of Ukraine. Not Before.

Ukraine will NEVER sue for Peace & betray those already murdered. It simply can never happen. Russia supported by West in WW2 did not surrender. Same Now. 

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, Fanta said:

You claimed that Chinese banks were not lending to Russia. That was proven false.  And now you post a new article, not the source you provided, so read what again?  This new article talks about US dollar backed letters of credit to purchase Russian exports. Yuan backed letters of credit are still available to clients wishing to purchase Russian exports. Talk to EdwardIV about this so he can explain it to you. I know little of financing etc. And the Russian oil and gas is still flowing. 

I posted a second link to claims you made in your reply. Namely that it was only ONE bank mentioned in my original link.

I told you to read the original link again because you had simply quoted a small part of the article, out of context, in order to justify your position.

Look I have provided you with plenty of evidence that YOUR claim China was helping Russia as being wrong.

How about YOU provide evidence that China is helping Russia.

[Fanta]

11 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Thank you for your verbosity, if you or anyone else needs proof of the sometimes obvious ask and you will receive, it is no good waiting weeks greeting over posts you should have mentioned on day 1 now is it.

"And there wouldn’t be any casualties if the Russians hadn’t invaded in the first place” No-one is denying that fact however stating it continuously adds no weight to a discussion"

But that is the most obvious part of any debate, it will always play a major part of any debate and attempting to sweep it under the carpet to try and make your arguments more believable will not work I'm afraid.

We are not talking of a 50 - 50 blame game here, most people would agree that the Russians are way in the lead on that score here. 

You’re welcome. The rest of your first paragraph is unclear. Anyway, the most obvious part of a discussion is to discuss the issues that are not agreed upon. The alternative is one party repeating the same fact again and again while the other party says “Yeah, agreed. And?” and around and around they go.