News Forum - Russia attacks Ukraine from three fronts, explosions in major cities

[Stardust]

3 minutes ago, Stonker said:

So the bundeswehr are going to have a training mission in Ukraine ... and they'll teach them to fly Eurofighters there ...

I see ... good timing ...

Knowing is not the same as believing. As usual you show me you know nothing just guessing and no nothing about Nato or German Army, really nothing. They trained them also in Germany and with the trainer who train the german army

https://m.dw.com/en/germany-resumes-weapons-shipments-to-iraqi-kurds/a-19481159

The problems you not know things you are guessing and believing you read somewher something and think your conclusions must be the reality. You not understand the difference between knowing and guessing!

[Stonker]

29 minutes ago, Stardust said:

Knowing is not the same as believing. As usual you show me you know nothing just guessing and no nothing about Nato or German Army, really nothing. They trained them also in Germany and with the trainer who train the german army

https://m.dw.com/en/germany-resumes-weapons-shipments-to-iraqi-kurds/a-19481159

The problems you not know things you are guessing and believing you read somewher something and think your conclusions must be the reality. You not understand the difference between knowing and guessing!

Aaah .... so they're going to train Ukranian pilots in Germany ... and the mechanics and ground crew ... I see ... good thing there's no hurry !

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

I'm not trying to excuse the inexcusable but, as I tried to point out in another thread,  objectively Russia was given plenty of assurances by both the NATO Secretary General and verbally in minuted meetings from pretty much all leading Western and European leaders for several years that there would be no NATO expansion beyond Germany, leaving buffer states between Russia (the Warsaw Pact as was) and NATO.

If you read the first link in full, for example, the Secretary General is absolutely clear that he's not just talking about Germany and unification as the Western media invariably claim but about Europe generally, east and west, and he spells that out beyond any possible doubt.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/opinions_23732.htm

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

Sure, Russian propaganda is laughably amateur to the west, but the west is no better.

That doesn't excuse or justify the invasion in any way, but the west isn't blameless here and if the buffer states had remained non-aligned, even if only on paper, then I doubt any of this would or could have happened.

“Non-aligned” meaning ripe open invite for Russian re- conquest.
which certainly would have happened under Putin already with Baltics so then real threat to Poland.

These “Opinions & Heard &MOM” simply don’t reconcile with the “ will join NATO” 2008 statement ….by NATO. Something’s “Off” Here.

Perhaps there were conditions like Russia becoming free & democratic.
No, that ain’t happening is it ? Because only THAT would guarantee peace & render NATO redundant.

Russia foolishly permitted Ukraine independence without Partition into East ( Russian speaking/ pro Russia) & West ( Ukrainian speaking/ neutral)). THAT action would CERTAINLY have prevented War. 100% Russia Fault. 

[Stardust]

5 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Aaah .... so they're going to train Ukranian pilots in Germany ... I see ... good thing there's no hurry !

You show me again your knowledge is from dr. Google and that means not knowing just guessing, believing and your conclusions from dr. Googles you read. As you even teach people in their native languages but not even understand it. Sombody who served knows how such things are handled and for sure they will not choose one who never was flying a jet and for sure nobody will tell to sombody like you how it works

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, KRLMRX said:

So nobody but pedantic fools care what Putin may have promised Biden on Ucraine when the new DPR and LPR countries were under Ucranian occupationAll Things Change!

Correct ! Those lands should have been carved away by Russia from an independent Ukraine. Russias Fault that they weren’t.
Promises & Treaties Broken Constantly Just  NOT & NEVER Sovereign Borders…. without DIRE Consequences .

[oldschooler]

5 minutes ago, Stardust said:

You show me again your knowledge is from dr. Google and that means not knowing just guessing, believing and your conclusions from dr. Googles you read. As you even teach people in their native languages but not even understand it. Sombody who served knows how such things are handled and for sure they will not choose one who never was flying a jet and for sure nobody will tell to sombody like you how it works

Could put army helicopter pilots in fast jets ! USA tried that with Harriers.

oh but that didn’t work out too well ……

[Stardust]

Just now, oldschooler said:

Could put army helicopter pilots in fast jets ! USA tried that with Harriers.

oh but that didn’t work out too well ……

For sure not but we should nit discuss it here. They have trained pilots in fast jet fighters . I think you will agree that germany, france etc who are not only in nato missions know how to handle it and are professionals. 

[oldschooler]

1 minute ago, Stardust said:

For sure not but we should nit discuss it here. They have trained pilots in fast jet fighters . I think you will agree that germany, france etc who are not only in nato missions know how to handle it and are professionals. 

Agreed. But Army don’t train Pilots.

[Stonker]

13 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

These “Opinions & Heard &MOM” simply don’t reconcile with the “ will join NATO” 2008 statement ….by NATO. Something’s “Off” Here.

Perhaps there were conditions like Russia becoming free & democratic.
No, that ain’t happening is it ? Because only THAT would guarantee peace & render NATO redundant.

Russia foolishly permitted Ukraine independence without Partition into East ( Russian speaking/ pro Russia) & West ( Ukrainian speaking/ neutral)). THAT action would CERTAINLY have prevented War. 100% Russia Fault. 

I genuinely don't know what you mean by "Opinions & Heard % MOM", but the link was direct to the NATO site for the full statement by the then NATO Secretary General, so there's not really any room for any "perhaps there were conditions",etc.

As I said, I'm not excusing the invasion in any way as there is no excuse, but it really isn't as simple as the West is now painting it.

[Stardust]

5 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Agreed. But Army don’t train Pilots.

Luftwaffe it is called

[oldschooler]

13 minutes ago, Stonker said:

I genuinely don't know what you mean by "Opinions & Heard % MOM", but the link was direct to the NATO site for the full statement by the then NATO Secretary General, so there's not really any room for any "perhaps there were conditions",etc.

As I said, I'm not excusing the invasion in any way as there is no excuse, but it really isn't as simple as the West is now painting it.

Well that would be an enormous & stupid concession to make unconditionally. Massively undermines Western security against an implacable Enemy . Makes Zero Sense. 

Complex Background & Resolution.

Is what it is. People can “ paint” anything here.

West ignoring the obviously required Partition solution being “contrary to intl law” no doubt, as if that really matters against 1000 years of history & ethnicities/ language distribution.

perfectly clear the official (Soviet) borders of Ukraine are Completely Impractical.

Everybody MUST now work towards that if we are not have a Bloody Balkans permanently in Eastern Europe, destabilizing the whole continent.

[Stonker]

14 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Agreed. But Army don’t train Pilots.

It's not about the Army training pilots (sail Army, fly Navy, walk sideways), sorry but that was just me keeping myself amused.

It's not even about where the training could take place.

It's first about the time it would take even an experienced Mig 29 pilot to convert to the Eurofighter, which is months even if they're experienced and speak the language, and second how long it would take to train and equip the mechanics and ground crew, and then thirdly what you could get for half a billion Euros.

What's frightening isn't that some here don't realise the issues and that it would be absolute insanity to even think about supplying two or three Eurofighters that would last no time and take months to deliver with training and service, against supplying a few squadrons of Mig 29's that could be flying there in combat tomorrow, but that there are people leading the EU and the West who are equally out to lunch.

That's seriously frightening.

[Thaidup]

On 2/26/2022 at 9:15 PM, oldschooler said:

Do they hold any govt. power ?

Have a little dig around in the political history of post WW11 Ukraine, you may be astonished.

[Stonker]

8 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Well that would be an enormous & stupid concession to make unconditionally. Massively undermines Western security against an implacable Enemy . Makes Zero Sense. 

Complex Background & Resolution.

Is what it is. People can “ paint” anything here.

West ignoring the obviously required Partition solution being “contrary to intl law” no doubt, as if that really matters against 1000 years of history & ethnicities/ language distribution.

perfectly clear the official (Soviet) borders of Ukraine are Completely Impractical.

Everybody MUST now work towards that if we are not have a Bloody Balkans permanently in Eastern Europe, destabilizing the whole continent.

Sorry, I genuinely don't understand what you're talking about.

What "concession"?

I simply gave a couple of links to show that there was a basis to the Russian claims about an agreement over non-aligned / buffer states, dating back thirty years and regularly repeated since.

I'm not suggesting that could happen now, as it's way too late - fifteen years or more.

[TheDirtyDurian]

It's amazing how many Ukraine - Russia experts there are on Thaiger Forum. 

You wouldn't have thought that a couple of weeks ago. 

[oldschooler]

29 minutes ago, Thaidup said:

Have a little dig around in the political history of post WW11 Ukraine, you may be astonished.

Yes or No ? No they don’t hold any govt or even opposition power. so fringe extremists then. Little or no impact here. just used as false pretext for Putin “ denazify” agenda.

[Noble_Design]

7 minutes ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

It's amazing how many Ukraine - Russia experts there are on Thaiger Forum. 

You wouldn't have thought that a couple of weeks ago. 

Everybody's an expert on the internet 

[oldschooler]

33 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Sorry, I genuinely don't understand what you're talking about.

What "concession"?

I simply gave a couple of links to show that there was a basis to the Russian claims about an agreement over non-aligned / buffer states, dating back thirty years and regularly repeated since.

I'm not suggesting that could happen now, as it's way too late - fifteen years or more.

Concession =not to expand NATO.
couldn’t mean anything else here….

 

[vlad]

6 hours ago, Stonker said:

Not in order to be given to Ukraine.

You can't just go from one fast jet to another as if you're going from a Toyota to a Honda.

The only possibilities are Mig 29's and Su 25's as that's all NATO has that they can fly.

You beat me to it!

I never said Ukrainian pilots would be flying them i said they are on standby if needed.

[vlad]

3 hours ago, Stonker said:

Killing innocent civilians and bombing non military residential areas aren't war crimes.

Arguably they should be, but they're not.

It is if you invade another country and kill their civilians.

[TheDirtyDurian]

10 minutes ago, Noble_Design said:

Everybody's an expert on the internet 

Still, at least they've stopped talking rubbish about COVID. 

[vlad]

6 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

do you really not understand the difference between underground neo-Nazis and an organization that is part of the structure of state power?

Do you not think Russian special forces don't wear a Ukrainian uniform or paint a Ukrainian insignia on their vehicle ??  

[oldschooler]

2 hours ago, EdwardV said:

That isn't correct. As pointed out by others, NATO doesn't have any equipment. It all belongs to individual nations. A Mig29 donated to Ukraine will have belonged to Poland (or some other country). The difference in this case is the EU has a $450M Euro fund to supply countries at war with supplies. Basically they reimburse member nations for the donations, and in this specific case they said jet fighters qualify. So if Poland wishes to donate a Mig29 to Ukraine, the EU will give them some money to offset the cost. These are not NATO fighters, nor pilots, it has nothing to do with NATO. It's an EU program that's existed before this particular war. Any plane at that point will belong to Ukraine and be flow by Ukrainian pilots. 

Thanks. See now that EU being useful here. Question is why haven’t these newer NATO country phased Russian gear by now in favor of  Western planes ? How can Russian planes be operated within NATO Command ? 

[Thaidup]

27 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Yes or No ? No they don’t hold any govt or even opposition power. so fringe extremists then. Little or no impact here. just used as false pretext for Putin “ denazify” agenda.

That's like asking do Jews hold any political power in the USA? Some politicians are outspokenly Nazi in Ukraine, just look it up and that 305 battallion is Nazi as it comes, just look it up.

Im not saying Putin is right IM just not falling for the narrative like when USA invaded Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Thaidup

[KRLMRX]

1 minute ago, vlad said:

Do you not think Russian special forces don't wear a Ukrainian uniform or paint a Ukrainian insignia on their vehicle ??  

if you are hinting that the Russians have dressed up as Azov fighters and are confusing you, then no - this is not so.

 There is even an official website (do many battalions have their own website?).  In the upper left corner is the emblem of the Waffen SS Wolf Hook.

https://azov.org.ua/