News Forum - Putin sends ‘peacekeeping’ troops to Ukraine after recognising breakaway regions

[AussieBob]

2 hours ago, Alavan said:

Exports are not wrong.

“Ukraine is “NOT YET” a NATO memeber? There never was talk of that, only Ukraine hoped to become a member (because they didn’t trust Putin?). O Pun sed this als a false excuse.

And correct, Putin can’t never justify invading western parts of Ukraine. But as Pin an d Xi always put “don’t interfere with what happens in our countries, seems not to count for them as they love to interfere in other countries.

The NATO supported Govt of Ukraine recently unilaterally changed the Constitution and then formally committed to joining NATO and the EU. That is why Russia reacted - the 'deal' that created Ukraine in 1991 was that NATO would never be on Russia's doorstep. 

[AussieBob]

52 minutes ago, Lyp14 [ctxa] said:

That won't happen. You just need to hang with Russian people and hang with Chinese people and you will understand the key difference. 

The Russians (specially the Soviet Union) have always been the biggest bullies and have in fact attacked multiple countries and started wars for no reason over the past century. 

China, regardless of what people say that they are bullies and that they are gonna take Taiwan, they haven't yet attacked anyone, and the invasion of Taiwan hasn't happened yet.

I'm willing to bet China will not take Taiwan by military force, anyone willing to bet? 

I doubt anyone will take that bet - even an Aussie.  But - China will support Russia me thinks - they have more in common with them, and a 4000km border, than they do with the West/EU. The best outcome I hope is that China stays neutral and becomes a 'negotiator' to achieve some common ground.  Wanna bet on that one? 

 

[Lyp14 [ctxa]]

12 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

I doubt anyone will take that bet - even an Aussie.  But - China will support Russia me thinks - they have more in common with them, and a 4000km border, than they do with the West/EU. The best outcome I hope is that China stays neutral and becomes a 'negotiator' to achieve some common ground.  Wanna bet on that one? 

Sure, I say China will not support the Russian invasion, but they will provide an economic lifeline to Russia after the incoming Western sanctions.

However China will keep pushing both parties to stop the army invasion and sit down to talk ASAP.

And frankly this is the way forward methinks, because Putin is crazy, and if there is some sort of armed response from the West, Putin will not stop even if he has to make use of their nuclear weapons, he will not care.

 

PS: The generation of my wife's grandfather in China, spent their childhood digging bunkers at school for the eventual nuclear war with the Soviet Union which at some point was extremely close to happening, in fact there was a rather short war between the Soviet Union and the China. Every Chinese is very wary of Russians, and deep down Chinese people know the Americans even if in recent times have been talking bad about China, they've never tried to invade China like the Russians have multiple times :).

Edited February 24, 2022 by Lyp14 [ctxa]

[Poolie]

56 minutes ago, Noble_Design said:

There are only 2 things that matter the most for a Chinese - money and good food. Unfortunately Taiwan doesn't have much good food to warrant an invasion.

Invade Taiwan for their stinky tofu? No thanks.

Maybe invade Taiwan BECAUSE of their stinky tofu............vile smelly stuff.

[huhuarf]

On 2/22/2022 at 4:31 PM, 23RD said:

Well Stardust yes I'm quite an expert on NATO,Europe.and Armies within Europe I've had lots of first hand experiance as for nuclear weapons I'm a qualified NBC/CBNR Instructor so yes I do have a good working knowledge of them to.

Yes Stardust I've on serveral NATO Operations (have you?).

I'm also an expert there Bud UN & NATO Operations (any questions?)

Because they will not act unless the US leads and Joe Biden is far to compromised by Pro Russian Ukrainians and and also The Russian Federation itself to act.

Unlike you Bud I don't need to read about it I can talk from first hand experience.

Yes I seen some of that Conference and Kamala Harris was shocking.

I'm more short,sharpe and to the point Stardust Bud but that's the beauty of having first hand experience Bud my knowledge come's from real life experience not from Google (and you do love to cut and paste from Google Bud).

No but on a serious note Stardust Bud If you need to ask any questions from an expert with first hand, real life experiance of the matter I'll endevour to answer any of your questions.

Well written, bud.

[huhuarf]

1 hour ago, AussieBob said:

The NATO supported Govt of Ukraine recently unilaterally changed the Constitution and then formally committed to joining NATO and the EU. That is why Russia reacted - the 'deal' that created Ukraine in 1991 was that NATO would never be on Russia's doorstep. 

Yeah I mean after the invasion of Crimea it would be silly for Ukraine to join NATO.

[JohninDublin]

1 hour ago, AussieBob said:

The NATO supported Govt of Ukraine recently unilaterally changed the Constitution and then formally committed to joining NATO and the EU. That is why Russia reacted - the 'deal' that created Ukraine in 1991 was that NATO would never be on Russia's doorstep. 

Do you not see a problem with the idea that a decision by a gov in 1991, can fetter the ambitions of all future govs? And that's before you consider the matter of duress.

If Russia had been more stable and had allowed democracy to do it's part, I am not sure that there would be any need for NATO today. Instead, they had a coup, voted for a drunken clown to replace Gorbachev, and in turn, replaced that clown with the worst that the KGB can produce. It's quite easy to imagine Ukrainians being like tenants in social housing, in fear of their ASBO neighbours. 

Under the old Soviet system, it was always a a local who was the titular head of each Republic, with an ethnic Russian at No2, who was the real power within that region. Ukraine was an independent country until it was conquered by the USSR after a 4 year bloody war in 1921. Is it any surprise that when the Nazis invaded in 1941, many Ukrainians joined the German Army, seeing the Nazis as liberators? Is it also any surprise, that ethnic Russians who lost their power when Ukraine became free of Russia, wanted a return to Russian authoritarianism.  

There is a similar situation in Moldova, where ethnic Russians have formed a widely unrecognised, Transnistria and aligned itself to and is receiving military aid. The only thing standing in the way of it becoming part of contiguous Russia is southern Ukraine. I can well imagine that even in the Baltic states, there are ethnic Russians who want to re-join the old Mother Russia, which is what led to the invasion of Ukraine.

Clearly, the Russians are not going to attack the Baltics, but Moldova would be an easy mouthful for them if they manage to pacify Ukraine. I think the time has come for all the former Soviet Republics where there are Russian separatist elements, to deport these people as a threat to their national security. I am not generally in favour of collective punishments, but if Ukraine prevails, I would not be unhappy to see them deport all 8 mill plus Ethnic Russians back to the "Motherland". In fact, in my opinion, now would be a good time for the Moldovans to recover and expel the Russians from the so called Republic of Transnistria.

[vlad]

3 hours ago, Lyp14 [ctxa] said:

That won't happen. You just need to hang with Russian people and hang with Chinese people and you will understand the key difference. 

The Russians (specially the Soviet Union) have always been the biggest bullies and have in fact attacked multiple countries and started wars for no reason over the past century. 

China, regardless of what people say that they are bullies and that they are gonna take Taiwan, they haven't yet attacked anyone, and the invasion of Taiwan hasn't happened yet.

I'm willing to bet China will not take Taiwan by military force, anyone willing to bet? 

Afghans wearing flip flops defeated the Red Army in the 80s and kicked them out of Afghan.

[KRLMRX]

24 minutes ago, JohninDublin said:

Ukraine was an independent country until it was conquered by the USSR after a 4 year bloody war in 1921.

it's fantasy.  The state of Ukraine did not exist until 1917, when Ukrainian nationalists (separatists, as the euro media now write) established the Ukrainian People's Republic after the death of the Russian Empire, the USSR was formed in 1922, and Soviet Ukraine became one of its founders.  It seems to me that it is the ignorance of the Euro-Atlantic officials that leads to crises like today's.

[vlad]

1 minute ago, vlad said:

Afghans wearing flip flops defeated the Red Army in the 80s and kicked them out of Afghan.

A Ukrainian spokesman has just stated that Russian troops are attempting to seize the Chernobyl nuclear plant let's hope they don't start playing around with it or we will have a fallout again.

[KRLMRX]

2 minutes ago, vlad said:

Afghans wearing flip flops defeated the Red Army in the 80s and kicked them out of Afghan.

this is an alternate reality.  

firstly, the slippers were made from American tamahawks;

secondly, the USSR left itself when internal problems (nationalism, the collapse of the economy) began, leaving factories, power plants, hospitals, and schools now built to secular Afghans.

[OOber]

All previous contracts have been made obsolete by Russia's actions. Ukraine is a recognised state, therefore, every Russian citizen worldwide must be denied visas to force them to return to their motherland. All Russian assets must be seized. All deals with Russia must be cancelled. Total isolation is the only response unless NATO reconsiders and fights the invaders. Any country defending Russia's position must endure the same fate. 

[JohninDublin]

10 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

it's fantasy.  The state of Ukraine did not exist until 1917, when Ukrainian nationalists (separatists, as the euro media now write) established the Ukrainian People's Republic after the death of the Russian Empire, the USSR was formed in 1922, and Soviet Ukraine became one of its founders.  It seems to me that it is the ignorance of the Euro-Atlantic officials that leads to crises like today's.

The idea that the USSR was not formed until 1922, does not undercut that fact that it is described as the "Soviet-Ukrainian War".

[Vigo]

On 2/23/2022 at 12:26 AM, 23RD said:

What like Canada and The US ?

Definitely like Canada this week. 

There was no manipulation. The parliament voted on the use of an existing legal option. The use of the  Emergency Measures Act provisions was voted on and approved. Additional resources were provided to civilian authorities to remove foreign funded lawbreakers, thugs and extremists. These people who had violated multiple municipal, provincial and federal  laws and who had disobeyed multiple court orders were dealt with in a legal and peaceful manner. The Emergency Measures Act has since been released.

This is very different than the situation in the Ukraine with Russia.   

[butterfly]

1 hour ago, huhuarf said:

Yeah I mean after the invasion of Crimea it would be silly for Ukraine to join NATO.

some people simply don't get the message,

and apparently the west still didn't get it,

Putin gave ample of warnings, and our foolish leaders kept nagging like a bad wife

[butterfly]

8 minutes ago, OOber said:

All previous contracts have been made obsolete by Russia's actions. Ukraine is a recognised state, therefore, every Russian citizen worldwide must be denied visas to force them to return to their motherland. All Russian assets must be seized. All deals with Russia must be cancelled. Total isolation is the only response unless NATO reconsiders and fights the invaders. Any country defending Russia's position must endure the same fate. 

sounds like the voice of a dictator

[Vigo]

7 minutes ago, OOber said:

All previous contracts have been made obsolete by Russia's actions. Ukraine is a recognised state, therefore, every Russian citizen worldwide must be denied visas to force them to return to their motherland. All Russian assets must be seized. All deals with Russia must be cancelled. Total isolation is the only response unless NATO reconsiders and fights the invaders. Any country defending Russia's position must endure the same fate. 

Do you  believe that Thailand would ever participate in sanctions against Russia? Imagine the devastation in Pattaya and Phuket if some of the  corrupt foreigners could not enter.

In respect to a country defending Russia's position, I believe that only the proxy state of Belarus is on side and that is because the despot who rules Belarus depends on Russia to remain in control.  

[JohninDublin]

7 minutes ago, OOber said:

All previous contracts have been made obsolete by Russia's actions. Ukraine is a recognised state, therefore, every Russian citizen worldwide must be denied visas to force them to return to their motherland. All Russian assets must be seized. All deals with Russia must be cancelled. Total isolation is the only response unless NATO reconsiders and fights the invaders. Any country defending Russia's position must endure the same fate. 

It would be nice to think that a few oligarchs might decide that Putin is bad for business, and "buy" themselves a few Generals to arrest Putin. The trouble with that scenario is that this being Russia, there is every chance that the cure might be worse than the disease, and whoever replaces him, is likely to be just as bad, if not worse,

[butterfly]

57 minutes ago, JohninDublin said:

Do you not see a problem with the idea that a decision by a gov in 1991, can fetter the ambitions of all future govs? And that's before you consider the matter of duress.

it's a valid argument, and that goes with NATO and the Pentagon with their war time mentality

The US started more wars than any super power over the last 40 years,

And I didn't see the outrage from the anti-Russian crowd,

but I guess when it's a full democracy like the US, it's ok to attack others without political backlash 

Edited February 24, 2022 by butterfly

[KRLMRX]

9 minutes ago, JohninDublin said:

The idea that the USSR was not formed until 1922, does not undercut that fact that it is described as the "Soviet-Ukrainian War".

so it is called by modern Ukrainian officials, who declared themselves the heirs of the UPR.

in reality, it was a civil war, mostly local residents fought on both sides of the barricades.

[Vigo]

4 minutes ago, butterfly said:

some people simply don't get the message,

and apparently the west still didn't get it,

Putin gave ample of warnings, and our foolish leaders kept nagging like a bad wife

Putin said the same thing about the Baltic states. He has also threatened Finland and Poland.  The difference is that the Finns have a history of success, the Baltic states now have a diverse complement of NATO personnel and  Poland is prepared. Russians are bullying and beating up a weak country.

[EdwardV]

7 minutes ago, butterfly said:

The US started more wars than any super power over the last 40 years,

 

That's called a "whataboutism". It's an attempt to either change the subject, or to rationalize away a bad behavior on your part by pointing out one by someone else. 

[butterfly]

1 minute ago, EdwardV said:

That's called a "whataboutism". It's an attempt to either change the subject, or to rationalize away a bad behavior on your part by pointing out one by someone else. 

it's called realPolitik, we do it all the time, and we come across as hypocrites for doing the same things as Putin, that's all I am saying

But yes it would be nice that each side stop putting the blame on each other

not going to happen,

Maybe Biden can start a war with Iran for compensation, if he desperately needs the attention

[Vigo]

10 minutes ago, butterfly said:

it's a valid argument, and that goes with NATO and the Pentagon with their war time mentality

The US started more wars than any super power over the last 40 years,

And I didn't see the outrage from the anti-Russian crowd,

but I guess when it's a full democracy like the US, it's ok to attack others without political backlash 

The key difference is that the USA actions were typically joint actions authorized by the UN or otherwise legal in nature. The Ukraine has not threatened Russia nor provided safe haven for terrorists.  I have little sympathy for the corrupt Ukraine with its preponderance of extreme right wing groups, however, what Russia has done is illegal and the sad reality is that it is now targeting non combatants.

[Vigo]

Just now, butterfly said:

it's called realPolitik, we do it all the time, and we come across as hypocrites for doing the same things as Putin, that's all I am saying

But yes it would be nice that each side stop putting the blame on each other

not going to happen,

Maybe Biden can start a war with Iran for compensation, if he desperately needs the attention

The USA has no desire to have a conflict with Iran and  disrupt the oil flow to  Europe and Asia. Russia  does as some Europeans were reliant on Russian energy supplies.