News Forum - France Saturday: 105,000 protest vaccine, 303,669 get Covid-19

[vlad]

16 minutes ago, Manu said:

??? Really stonker? The pharmaceutical companies are doing their clinical trials where they decide to, then once the results are published, it is the authorities of each country to analyse them independently as does WHO and approve them for their own country. All 4 vaccines mentioned in my previous posts are all still in clinical trials wether you like it or not. The end dates (end of phase 4) published by the us national institute of health are what they are, wherever these trials are taking place, not sure what’s there to argue about.        The authorisations are all under emergency of use. Yes, they are!!!      https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/news/coronavirus-and-your-health/coronavirus-vaccine-trials#Heading2.        Now I don’t mind arguing with you as you at least come up with something articulated but please vlad and the other clowns do not bother to reply, it will be ignored.

According to your other members from the CC squad no trials have been undertaken on vaccines its all fantasy ? Now your commenting on trials ??

[Stonker]

3 hours ago, Manu said:

All 4 vaccines mentioned in my previous posts are all still in clinical trials wether you like it or not. The end dates (end of phase 4) published by the us national institute of health are what they are, wherever these trials are taking place, not sure what’s there to argue about.        The authorisations are all under emergency of use. Yes, they are!!!      https://www.bhf.org.uk/informationsupport/heart-matters-magazine/news/coronavirus-and-your-health/coronavirus-vaccine-trials#Heading2.        Now I don’t mind arguing with you as you at least come up with something articulated but please vlad and the other clowns do not bother to reply, it will be ignored.

No they're not, despite what you claimed before and what you claimed / thought your previous links said.

 These aren't "clinical trials" - the clinical trials have been completed, as directly confirmed in the individual links I gave for Pfizer / Moderna and AZ.

What you're referring to, as others have which is why I'm not saying that you're being deliberately misleading, is longer term follow up monitoring which routinely continues for two years after the clinical trials are complete.

If you look at @cmsally's link it links to the definition of "clinical trials", and if you need more explanation you can get it at the Oxford Uni link I gave before ( https://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/vk/vaccine-development ).

If you want to claim that the long term effects aren't known yet then fair enough as that's a different argument, balancing the risk of unknown long term effects vs the risk of not vaccinating anyone outside the trials for the next ten, twenty or thirty years or more, but the "clinical trials" are over.

 

[Manu]

3 hours ago, vlad said:

According to your other members from the CC squad no trials have been undertaken on vaccines its all fantasy ? Now your commenting on trials ??

Yes trials are undertaken, are happening right now, you obviously are not aware that phase 4 of clinical trial means for 2 years after phase 3, the people who took place of phase 3 have to be monitored for 2 years for side effects etc… that’s the way it works for these vaccines or any other vaccines… you clown.

[Manu]

4 minutes ago, Stonker said:

No they're not, despite what you claimed before and what you claimed / thought your previous links said.

 These aren't "clinical trials" - the clinical trials have been completed, as directly confirmed in the individual links I gave for Pfizer / Moderna and AZ.

What you're referring to, as others have which is why I'm not saying that you're being deliberately misleading, is longer term follow up monitoring which routinely continues for two years after the clinical trials are complete.

If you look at @cmsally's link it links to the definition of "clinical trials", and if you need more explanation you can get it at the Oxford Uni link I gave before ( https://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/vk/vaccine-development ).

If you want to claim that the long term effects aren't known yet then fair enough as that's a different argument, balancing the risk of unknown long term effects vs the risk of not vaccinating anyone outside the trials for the next ten, twenty or thirty years or more, but the "clinical trials" are over.

Phase 4 of a clinical trial? 2 years of monitoring people who took place of phase 3 of the trials? No? A clinical trial is completed after phase 4, not phase 3. No?

[Stonker]

5 minutes ago, Manu said:

Yes trials are undertaken, are happening right now, you obviously are not aware that phase 4 of clinical trial means for 2 years after phase 3, the people who took place of phase 3 have to be monitored for 2 years for side effects etc… that’s the way it works for these vaccines or any other vaccines… you clown.

Again, that's not correct.

 The clinical trials are only Phases 1 to 3, by medical definition.

Phase 4 isn't a 'trial' as there's no control group - it's simply long term monitoring, usually for two years.

It's frequently mis-labelled as part of the trials but it isn't as there's no control group and by definition you can't do a trial without a control group.

As I said, you can get a full explanation at the Oxford Uni link I gave.

[Stonker]

6 minutes ago, Manu said:

A clinical trial is completed after phase 4, not phase 3. No?

No.

[Rookiescot]

7 minutes ago, Manu said:

Phase 4 of a clinical trial? 2 years of monitoring people who took place of phase 3 of the trials? No? A clinical trial is completed after phase 4, not phase 3. No?

Conspiracy theory nonsense.

Take it elsewhere.

[Stonker]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

Conspiracy theory nonsense.

Take it elsewhere.

I've given individual links to Pfizer, Moderna and AZ very clearly stating beyond any possible doubt that their clinical trials are complete, pointed out that @cmsally's link has definitions of clinical trials, and given a link to Oxford Uni's easy to understand explanation of the difference between clinical trials and long term monitoring.

I really don't know what more it's possible to do for these people!

[Stonker]

22 minutes ago, Manu said:

... phase 4 of clinical trial means for 2 years after phase 3, the people who took place of phase 3 have to be monitored for 2 years for side effects etc… that’s the way it works for these vaccines or any other vaccines… you clown.

Sorry, that's not "the way it works" as "the people who took place of phase 3" DON'T "have to be monitored for 2 years for side effects etc…" - those who had the placebo aren't monitored, only those who had the vaccine.

That's why it's no longer a trial.

[Manu]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

No.

Yes

[Manu]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

Conspiracy theory nonsense.

Take it elsewhere.

Clown 

[vlad]

Manu it is against the forum rules to troll another member by calling him a clown.

[Manu]

1 hour ago, vlad said:

Manu it is against the forum rules to troll another member by calling him a clown.

Fair enough. Sorry.

[Manu]

Just now, Manu said:

Fair enough. Sorry.

I meant it though…sorry…

[Stonker]

2 hours ago, Manu said:

Yes

Sorry, but there's no polite way to say this as what you're saying is just plain stupid.

The manufacturers each say, categorically, that they've completed the clinical trials, and I've given direct links to their statements saying so.

Despite that, you continue to insist the trials are still going on and you're calling other posters "clowns".

There's just no polite reply possible - it's like someone insisting water's dry.

 

 

[Manu]

3 hours ago, Stonker said:

No.

Fine, no more phase 4 from now on. For those vaccines and any others in the future. Sure, why not. Phase 3 and then the whole world right away. Even you surely understand it makes no sense. Surely?

[Manu]

7 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Sorry, but there's no polite way to say this as what you're saying is just plain stupid.

The manufacturers each say, categorically, that they've completed the clinical trials, and I've given direct links to their statements saying so.

Despite that, you continue to insist the trials are still going on and you're calling other posters "clowns".

There's just no polite reply possible - it's like someone insisting water's dry.

Are you acknowledging that there is normally a phase 4? What is it? Not one of these vaccines have had their clinical trials completed, phase 4, the data of them are not completed until the study cases during that trial phase 3 have gone under observation for 2 years. Hence a year or 2 for these vaccines. None to argue about, none!

[vlad]

In the words of your CIC Manu your wanted on this thread. Why don't you go back to the CC Corner with your Phases what ever that means.

[Stonker]

33 minutes ago, Manu said:

Fine, no more phase 4 from now on. For those vaccines and any others in the future. Sure, why not. Phase 3 and then the whole world right away. Even you surely understand it makes no sense. Surely?

No, Phase 4 is continued monitoring and is routine - it simply isn't part of the clinical trial.

I genuinely don't know how to say that any more clearly. 

You're insisting that the manufacturers are still doing clinical trials when they say the trials have been completed.

It's like insisting Usain Bolt is still competing in the 100m when he says he's retired.

[Manu]

11 minutes ago, Stonker said:

No, Phase 4 is continued monitoring and is routine - it simply isn't part of the clinical trial.

I genuinely don't know how to say that any more clearly. 

You're insisting that the manufacturers are still doing clinical trials when they say the trials have been completed.

It's like insisting Usain Bolt is still competing in the 100m when he says he's retired.

Take it easy… 

[Manu]

13 minutes ago, Stonker said:

No, Phase 4 is continued monitoring and is routine - it simply isn't part of the clinical trial.

I genuinely don't know how to say that any more clearly. 

You're insisting that the manufacturers are still doing clinical trials when they say the trials have been completed.

It's like insisting Usain Bolt is still competing in the 100m when he says he's retired.

Again, who are trying to fool here? I simply do not get it, you seem a cleaver person, I just don’t get what are you arguing about phase 4? I just don’t get it…

[Stonker]

27 minutes ago, Manu said:

Are you acknowledging that there is normally a phase 4? What is it? Not one of these vaccines have had their clinical trials completed, phase 4, the data of them are not completed until the study cases during that trial phase 3 have gone under observation for 2 years. Hence a year or 2 for these vaccines. None to argue about, none!

You're just talking absolute nonsense - read the links I gave.

The manufacturers have completed clinical trials -they've said so, categorically.

Phase 4 is continued monitoring - it's not part of the clinical trial. That's not 'my view', it's the definition as clearly stated in the link I gave as well as that given by @cmsally.

Half the 'study cases' in Phase 3 aren't included in Ph 4 - all the control group.

You may think they should be, and you may think Ph 4 should be included in the clinical trials, but it isn't.

Read the definitions, FFS.

Sorry, but there's no point in continuing this nonsense.

Don't you realise quite how stupid it is to insist the manufacturers are still doing clinical trials when the manufacturers say the trials have been completed and the results passed on for approval, and the countries, WHO, etc, all say they've received them, etc?

[Manu]

5 minutes ago, Stonker said:

You're just talking absolute nonsense - read the links I gave.

The manufacturers have completed clinical trials -they've said so, categorically.

Phase 4 is continued monitoring - it's not part of the clinical trial. That's not 'my view', it's the definition as clearly stated in the link I gave as well as that given by @cmsally.

Half the 'study cases' in Phase 3 aren't included in Ph 4 - all the control group.

You may think they should be, and you may think Ph 4 should be included in the clinical trials, but it isn't.

Read the definitions, FFS.

Sorry, but there's no point in continuing this nonsense.

Don't you realise quite how stupid it is to insist the manufacturers are still doing clinical trials when the manufacturers say the trials have been completed and the results passed on for approval, and the countries, WHO, etc, all say they've received them, etc?

Repeat again? Yeah got it but I am not only disagreeing with that, I do not… forget it. Phase 4 is phase 4, it has been done that way ever and it should stay that way. You are just someone very strange…

[Manu]

1 hour ago, Manu said:

I meant it though…sorry…

Was joking obviously… 

[Stonker]

6 minutes ago, Manu said:

Well you are a clown too obviously 

As "obviously" are the manufacturers, the WHO, and all the countries that said they've  approved the vaccine after receiving the data from the clinical trials after they were complete.

All "clowns" - little do they know the clinical trials are still going on ..... somewhere on the far side of the planet Zog.