News Forum - New eased rules for travellers entering Thailand enacted

[TheDirtyDurian]

3 minutes ago, BlueSphinx said:

Thanks for posting that link, but you probably didn't read the article, as the title of that article contradicts several of the statements that are made.  So let me cherry-pick a couple of them:

# When infected with the delta variant, a given contact was 65 percent less likely to test positive if the person from whom the exposure occurred was fully vaccinated with two doses of the Pfizer vaccine. With AstraZeneca, a given contact was 36 percent less likely to test positive if the person from whom the exposure occurred was fully vaccinated.

# The risk of transmission from a breakthrough infection was much higher if someone had received just dose of either vaccine.

# Using cycle threshold (Ct) values, the researchers found a similar level of viral load in unvaccinated and vaccinated people who were infected with the delta variant, backing up prior studies.

# After three months, people who had breakthrough infections after being vaccinated with AstraZeneca were just as likely to spread the delta variant as the unvaccinated.

>> The University of Oxford study was posted online Thursday and hasn’t yet been peer reviewed.  And the article does not contain a link to the pre-print of the study.  I would be interested to receive a link to that study, so that I can do my research first-hand and not rely on the interpretation as rendered in a NBC news-article. 

I did read it. That's why I posted it. 

You can cherry pick all you like but the general gist is that vaccinated people have reduced transmission....

...... Which (I know you're wetting yourself at this bit) seems to weaken over time. 

So initially there is a strong reduced transmission which then lessens. I don't see why that's so controversial. 

And yes, it's a new study. Give it time. Doesn't mean it's a load of bollocks.

I'm fairly sure that anyone doing research at Oxford knows slightly more than you or me about how the virus works, and how the vaccines ARE working.

[Stonker]

38 minutes ago, BlueSphinx said:

Glad to see that @Stonker joined the ranks of the so-called 'conspiracy theorists' on this particular issue, although it would be more accurate to label them Covid-Vax Sceptics.  Indeed the facts and data are so overwhelming now that it cannot be denied anymore that vaccinated people are MORE likely to spread the virus than the unvaccinated ones.  The main reason being that the vaccine suppresses their symptoms when they are infected, so they can go unwittingly on a spreading spree. 

A couple weeks ago I was verbally attacked for stating this, and those that rely on the mainstream media to form their opinion instead of doing some research on the issue, will undoubtedly keep on repeating the mantra of the 'dangerous unvaccinated' that need to be punished for not conforming to What Everybody Knows. 

I wouldn't say "joined the ranks" so much as tried to keep an open mind and follow developments, even from you, even if that means accepting that some things I thought before were wrong.

The problem with the "Covid-Vax Sceptics" is that they're / you're your own worst enemy as they seldom do the same, so that when something they say is verifiably true it's all too often assumed to be just another nut-job / tin-foil-hat / lizard men idea and so everybody loses - the boy who cried wolf effect.

However much those previously infected may have a high level of immunity, etc, which they undeniably do, the "dangerous unvaccinated" are still more dangerous than they need to be as according to the large Israeli study, and now others, if they were vaccinated as well as having been infected they'd further halve their chances of being affected by the virus / dying / taking up a hospital bed / being off work / etc.

The ideal, and what I think will inevitably happen everywhere over time, is that most people will be vaccinated so lessening the chances of their dying or being seriously affected by Covid, and most people (including the vaccinated) will catch Covid and develop an increasing level of immunity, so that in time it's just another virus like a cold or flu.

[Stonker]

37 minutes ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

"The study was posted online Thursday and hasn’t yet been peer reviewed. But scientists not associated with the research said the findings were credible."

And you should read the second line.

I did - that was why I quoted part of "the findings" which you apparently overlooked.

"just as likely" isn't the same as "less likely" - it really isn't.

[BlueSphinx]

22 minutes ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

I did read it. That's why I posted it. 

...

So initially there is a strong reduced transmission which then lessens. I don't see why that's so controversial.

My cherry-pick #2 from the article seems to contradict your statement...

# The risk of transmission from a breakthrough infection was much higher if someone had received just dose of either vaccine.

[BlueSphinx]

25 minutes ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

...

And yes, it's a new study. Give it time. Doesn't mean it's a load of bollocks.

I'm fairly sure that anyone doing research at Oxford knows slightly more than you or me about how the virus works, and how the vaccines ARE working.

You are quoting the NBC article, NOT the pre-print of the study that is in the process of peer-review. 

I never said or implied that that study is a 'load of bollocks', but as mentioned before I'd like to base my opinion on the actual study (pre-print is good enough for me) and not on the interpretation of it by an NBC journalist. 

If anybody has the link to the pre-print of that Oxford University study, please post it here...

[Stonker]

17 minutes ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

I did read it. That's why I posted it. 

Well, you've done an excellent job of hiding that - maybe @BS and I should have said 'comprehend' rather than read.

TBF, however difficult it is, I'd hardly say that @BS has "cherry-picked" any points as beyond the headline that's pretty much everything the article says.

... and if after three months the vaccinated are "just as likely" to transmit the virus as the unvaccinated then it's not "controversial" but it negates everything you've said.

... and that's your link.

27 minutes ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

(snip) ...the vaccines ARE working.

Well, yes, but unfortunately that's not the point you made which was

29 minutes ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

a load of bollocks.

 

[TheDirtyDurian]

Whatever. Got better things to do with my day then argue the toss with either of you. Believe what you like. 

Have a nice day sirs.

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

Sandbox hotels have some great deals at all price points. Some are under 1000 baht a night. Just look on Agoda. It's all there.

I'd be very careful with this one - booking through Agoda may not give you the extra that the Sandbox scheme requires in terms of supervision and transport.

I'm not suggesting it doesn't, just that it would be unwise for anyone to assume it does.

[Faraday]

1 hour ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

"The study was posted online Thursday and hasn’t yet been peer reviewed. But scientists not associated with the research said the findings were credible."

And you should read the second line.

Is there a link to UO study, or do you know the title of it please?

[Stonker]

4 minutes ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

Whatever. Got better things to do with my day then argue the toss with either of you. Believe what you like. 

Have a nice day sirs.

It's not a case of believing or arguing the toss, and the last thing I'd do is get into bed with @BS for the fun of it, but what you're saying is verifiably wrong.

[BBY]

I have to say, I can’t see these new changes lasting more than a couple of weeks or so once visitors start arriving from Red countries.

Opening to the world including (Red countries) is a big mistake and sure to start another wave, which in turn will put Thailand right back to the beginning yet again. 

However, it is now time to move forward without a plethora of regulations and quarantine. We all have to live with this virus and there is always going to be risk. It will be 2 years soon and that’s enough.

Staying closed and managing an economy is not an option. Despite some of the headlines we have seen recently, the way those in charge have mishandled this situation means that legitimate investors are not interested. Just like tourists, they need to be attracted. The only ones likely to be attracted at present are asset strippers and the wrong kind of investors. 

Opening to The World, is going to endanger the population of Thailand far, far more than allowing green countries to enter without all the hoops to jump through and points once again to lining select people’s pockets with total disregard to the population. 

It’s time to open now. Test before departure. Test on arrival (you pay for it), it’s a small investment in exchange for what the tourists will spend while in Thailand. Normal international insurance, no COE, no sending people to hospital that don’t have symptoms and tested negative, that insurance will not cover, just because the aircraft they arrived on had a positive passenger. 

 

 

 

 

[dimitri]

4 hours ago, BBY said:

I have to say, I can’t see these new changes lasting more than a couple of weeks or so once visitors start arriving from Red countries.

Opening to the world including (Red countries) is a big mistake and sure to start another wave, which in turn will put Thailand right back to the beginning yet again. 

 

 

Thailand itself is a red country. Many countries now advice against travelling to Thailand. 

 

 

Standard health insurance policies and insurance policies no longer pay out in the event of illness or damage, etc. when travelling to Thailand.

 

Are there countries where the infection numbers are higher than in Thailand?

 

This whole quarantine system in Thailand is a big joke.  I will soon arrive from a country that has only 10% of the daily infections Thailand has now. And I still have to do the whole quarantine joke. Including the overly expensive PCR tests and the mandatory health insurance that is so expensive it looks more like a scam.

 

And the rules are so complicated that it took me several evenings just to understand the basics. There really won't be any tourists, they've made it too expensive and complicated.

 

 

[dimitri]

7 hours ago, Stonker said:

I realise it doesn't suit your agenda, but the proven facts show that they're at least as "dangerous" as the unvaccinated and potentially far more so, and constantly denying the facts doesn't change them.

 

Can you substantiate this? As usual a lot of nonsense in your writings.

 

Proven facts, that means that there must be a scientific article somewhere.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by dimitri

[dimitri]

5 hours ago, BlueSphinx said:

Indeed the facts and data are so overwhelming now that it cannot be denied anymore that vaccinated people are MORE likely to spread the virus than the unvaccinated ones.  The main reason being that the vaccine suppresses their symptoms when they are infected, so they can go unwittingly on a spreading spree. 

 

 

Please ready very carefully what you write. You are comparing 2 different things.  You are blaming behaviour of people. While you should just compare vaccinated and not vaccinated people. Not their behaviour. You should just compare the effectiveness of the vaccines.

Also: Scientific research showed for example that people who are vaccinated are less likely to get infected at all. So if you compare the 2 groups of people, vaccinated and not vaccinated, the group with not vaccinated people will have a higher percentage of Covid infections (4 times more). And simply beause of this they are more likely to spread the disease to others. Because if you are not infected, you will not do so.

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by dimitri

[BlueSphinx]

20 minutes ago, dimitri said:

Please ready very carefully what you write. You are comparing 2 different things.  You are blaming behaviour of people. While you should just compare vaccinated and not vaccinated people. Not their behaviour. You should just compare the effectiveness of the vaccines.

Also: Scientific research showed for example that people who are vaccinated are less likely to get infected at all. So if you compare the 2 groups of people, vaccinated and not vaccinated, the group with not vaccinated people will have a higher percentage of Covid infections (4 times more). And simply beause of this they are more likely to spread the disease to others. Because if you are not infected, you will not do so.

I am not participating in the Blame Game.  I am simply stating that the suppression of their symptoms when infected makes vaccinated people more likely to unwittingly spread the virus than infected unvaccinated people.  And according to the latest figures of the weekly Vaccine Surveillance Reports published by PublicHealth England there are proportionally MORE infected vaccinated than unvacccinated infected in the age-categories of over 40 years of age.

[JamesR]

13 hours ago, Shade_Wilder said:

They just really don't get it, do they?

Yes, cutting down on the quarantine is a good thing, but if you are allowing fully vaccinated people (2 shots) into the country, then why do they need to quarantine at all? Further, given that most Thais don't have 2 shots, aren't Thais actually more dangerous than an visitor? Hint: yes, they are!

However, this is still only one part of the problem:

Getting a COE is too difficult and time consuming.

Getting 100,000$ of insurance is too difficult, too expensive, and if Thailand is safe, why is it needed?

Getting tested and tested and re-tested with an overpriced test is dumb and insulting to visitors.

Getting an over-priced hotel is just a blatant rip-off, and people know it.

Getting limited on where you can eat and drink is a turn-off.

I could go on, but what's the point?

I think it is good for Thailand to re-open, even through it is not without risk. BUT, if Thailand is going to re-open, then it should re-open; half-assed re-openings just piss people off.

"....but if you are allowing fully vaccinated people (2 shots) into the country, then why do they need to quarantine at all?"

Because even if you are vaccinated you can still catch covid on the aeroplane, the vaccine stops you from becoming very sick, it does not stop you getting the virus and you can pass it onto others.

"Getting 100,000$ of insurance is too difficult, too expensive, and if Thailand is safe, why is it needed?"

I just checked here in the UK and I normally get £7,000,000 insurance cover which covers all health problems/accidents etc and free repatriation back to the UK if needed.

The insurance quote I had states if the UK has deemed a country to be in a red-zone then the cover is not valid, so bollocks to my trip to Phuket at the moment as I am not going without insurance, just being covered for covid is not enough. 

 

[Bob20]

29 minutes ago, BlueSphinx said:

I am not participating in the Blame Game.  I am simply stating that the suppression of their symptoms when infected makes vaccinated people more likely to unwittingly spread the virus than infected unvaccinated people.  And according to the latest figures of the weekly Vaccine Surveillance Reports published by PublicHealth England there are proportionally MORE infected vaccinated than unvacccinated infected in the age-categories of over 40 years of age.

 

From the report: "This is likely to be due to a variety of reasons, including differences in the population of vaccinated and unvaccinated people as well as differences in testing patterns."

And in fact the same report shows that studies indicates a 35-50% lower transmission rate from vaccinated people (page 7)

 

[JamesR]

5 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

From the report: "This is likely to be due to a variety of reasons, including differences in the population of vaccinated and unvaccinated people as well as differences in testing patterns."

And in fact the same report shows that studies indicates a 35-50% lower transmission rate from vaccinated people (page 7)

A related issue, I read today on SKY news, of the number of people dying of the virus in the UK over the last few weeks 70% of them are people with no vaccinations as they must have refused to have them seeing as the vaccine has been available to all now for the last few months. 

That is good news for us vaccinated people and I have no sympathy for the people who are unvaccinated by choice. 

[BlueSphinx]

10 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

From the report: "This is likely to be due to a variety of reasons, including differences in the population of vaccinated and unvaccinated people as well as differences in testing patterns."

And in fact the same report shows that studies indicates a 35-50% lower transmission rate from vaccinated people (page 7)

 

From the report: "This is likely to be due to a variety of reasons, including differences in the population of vaccinated and unvaccinated people as well as differences in testing patterns."

>> In other words: they have no clue what would be the reason for the HIGHER infections of the vaccinated vs the unvaccinated in the +40-years age bracket, and they are now using the very same sentence already 4 weeks in a row.

And in fact the same report shows that studies indicates a 35-50% lower transmission rate from vaccinated people (page 7)

>> This is what that page 7 of the report says: A household transmission study in England found that household contacts of cases vaccinated with a single dose had approximately 35 to 50% reduced risk of becoming a confirmed case of COVID-19.

But the report states that that study was conducted when the Alpha variant was dominant... 

[JamesR]

1 hour ago, dimitri said:

Thailand itself is a red country. Many countries now advice against travelling to Thailand. 

Standard health insurance policies and insurance policies no longer pay out in the event of illness or damage, etc. when travelling to Thailand.

Are there countries where the infection numbers are higher than in Thailand?

This whole quarantine system in Thailand is a big joke.  I will soon arrive from a country that has only 10% of the daily infections Thailand has now. And I still have to do the whole quarantine joke. Including the overly expensive PCR tests and the mandatory health insurance that is so expensive it looks more like a scam.

And the rules are so complicated that it took me several evenings just to understand the basics. There really won't be any tourists, they've made it too expensive and complicated.

"Standard health insurance policies and insurance policies no longer pay out in the event of illness or damage, etc. when travelling to Thailand."

Yes I just checked before reading your post about buying full medical cover from an insurance company here in the UK and before I could apply a section stating the insurance is invalid if going to a red-listed country so that is my six months trip off for now, I was going to go in one month's time but not without full health insurance. 

[BlueSphinx]

7 minutes ago, JamesR said:

"Standard health insurance policies and insurance policies no longer pay out in the event of illness or damage, etc. when travelling to Thailand."

Yes I just checked before reading your post about buying full medical cover from an insurance company here in the UK and before I could apply a section stating the insurance is invalid if going to a red-listed country so that is my six months trip off for now, I was going to go in one month's time but not without full health insurance. 

To paraphrase your earlier post > That is good news for us already insured people and I have no sympathy for the people who are uninsured by choice of applying too late  . 

[JamesR]

48 minutes ago, BlueSphinx said:

To paraphrase your earlier post > That is good news for us already insured people and I have no sympathy for the people who are uninsured by choice of applying too late  . 

[Bob20]

1 hour ago, JamesR said:

A related issue, I read today on SKY news, of the number of people dying of the virus in the UK over the last few weeks 70% of them are people with no vaccinations as they must have refused to have them seeing as the vaccine has been available to all now for the last few months. 

That is good news for us vaccinated people and I have no sympathy for the people who are unvaccinated by choice. 

I agree. But we're going to have more people refusing especially in the US where Merck already had a deal with the government (I wrote about it last month) and is now applying for an temporary emergency license for Molnupiravir at $700 a course. I hope the ones refusing the vaccine will be paying the additional costs for this experimental medicine. BTW, would be funny if now they don't object to this being experimental.

[JamesE]

15 hours ago, Shade_Wilder said:

Getting a COE is too difficult and time consuming.

Getting 100,000$ of insurance is too difficult, too expensive, and if Thailand is safe, why is it needed?

Getting tested and tested and re-tested with an overpriced test is dumb and insulting to visitors.

Getting an over-priced hotel is just a blatant rip-off, and people know it.

Getting limited on where you can eat and drink is a turn-off.

I could go on, but what's the point?

COE - two days, one error (on my part) correction and one rule change (in my favor). If the COE process is "difficult and time consuming" I would suggest travel to Disneyland might be easier.

100K insurance - 10 minutes on HeyMondo (was) US$156 for a full year of general health, COVID and travel coverage. It's needed to make sure you can pay for your hospital stay.

Tests, I agree, a bit excessive but they've cut the number down and compared to travel testing in the US at $100 - $300 they're pretty reasonably priced.

Over-priced??? The hotels in the Sandbox are stupid-cheap right now. Villas for $50/night, pool villas for $100. Where do people come up with this "over-priced" narrative?

The only thing limiting you on where you can eat or drink is whether or not you've got wheels. Sure, many places are closed but many are not. People I know that have been through the Sandbox have told me they had a great time with the only restriction (now lifted) of not being able to have a drink in restaurants. (Bars, of course, remain closed for now.)

 

[JamesE]

12 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

would be funny if now they don't object to this being experimental.

The Universe is fueled by irony.

It's a different calculus when you have a machine breathing for you.