Afghanistan Has Fallen

[Fluke]

2 minutes ago, Poolie said:

The Intelligence Agencies did tell him lies. They told him they were fit for purpose.

No, the intelligence agencies reported that the Afghan Gov wasnt stable and it was likely that the Taliban would walk in unopposed .

   That info was made public and a reporter asked him about it :

Reporter :Mr Biden , "What you you think about the C.I.A's report that the Afghan Government could fall"

   Mr Biden " Thats a lie , they didnt report that"

[stevenkongju]

On 8/17/2021 at 1:46 PM, Fluke said:

The Taliban were never defeated or surrendered and a few thousand U.S troops wouldnt have been able to combat the 70 000 odd Taliban fighters  and they wouldnt have been able to stop the fall of Kabul

If the US did not withdraw its intelligence, logistical and air support, the Afghan army could have held. When the US bugs out, the Afghan military knows its days are numbered and cuts deals with the Taliban to try to keep themselves and their families alive. Perhaps US forces could have numbered around 8,000 to 10,000 to keep the status quo of admittedly limited human rights and no Taliban/al Qeada control of a nation state. Now, other than the fact that one man, Usama bin Ladan is dead, how are things different that in September of 2001? The only difference is that now the Taliban and al Qeada have confirmed that they have the patience and the Trump/Biden lead U.S. does not. This withdrawl is an unmitigated disaster and Trump/Biden will have to live with it. Trump has no shame, so no problem for him. I thought Biden had shame, but thus far, it appears not.

[stevenkongju]

The Emir of the Taliban, the new rulers of Afghanistan and allies of al Qaeda, Hibatullah Akhundzada, sent his own son to blow himself up in a terrorist attack in 2017. Don't believe it when you hear people say that the Taliban is any different than they were in 2001. Al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri has sworn a "blood oath" to Akhundzada. This is what the Trump Administration and now the Biden Administration was and is negotiating with.

[dmacarelli]

6 minutes ago, stevenkongju said:

The Emir of the Taliban, the new rulers of Afghanistan and allies of al Qaeda, Hibatullah Akhundzada, sent his own son to blow himself up in a terrorist attack in 2017. Don't believe it when you hear people say that the Taliban is any different than they were in 2001. Al Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri has sworn a "blood oath" to Akhundzada. This is what the Trump Administration and now the Biden Administration was and is negotiating with.

All the more reason why we should never be over there to begin with. For centuries nations have attempted to alter the power structure in Iraq and Afghanistan. And for what? 

 

 

[stevenkongju]

3 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

All the more reason why we should never be over there to begin with. For centuries nations have attempted to alter the power structure in Iraq and Afghanistan. And for what? 

To prevent terrorist attacks that kill thousands. Nearly everyone other that ultra-pacifists agreed that NATO should go to Afghanistan in September 2001.

[Poolie]

20 minutes ago, Fluke said:

No, the intelligence agencies reported that the Afghan Gov wasnt stable and it was likely that the Taliban would walk in unopposed .

   That info was made public and a reporter asked him about it :

Reporter :Mr Biden , "What you you think about the C.I.A's report that the Afghan Government could fall"

   Mr Biden " Thats a lie , they didnt report that"

And? Thats one occasion. I mean overall.

[Fluke]

1 minute ago, Poolie said:

And? Thats one occasion. I mean overall.

I was talking about this particular piece of information, rather than generally .

  Had Biden listened to this bit of info and heeded the advice , he would have been able to plan a timely evacuation 

[dmacarelli]

18 minutes ago, stevenkongju said:

To prevent terrorist attacks that kill thousands. Nearly everyone other that ultra-pacifists agreed that NATO should go to Afghanistan in September 2001.

And the intentions may have been noble, but was there enough planning to establish an end game? And was enough effort spent wiping out the Taliban and Al Queda? And the real question is, did our presence over there actually benefit the terrorism fund raising efforts, with fortunes coming from despot, true enemy states like Saudi Arabia? And how do we make real progress, when other true enemy states like Pakistan continue to harbor and protect these goons?

What was the expected outcome? How were the trillions spent, and the thousands of lives sacrificed, justified? I understand the ideals involved. I despise these creepy, drug dealing, rapist gang bangers who call themselves religious fighters. But, are we able to fight them for decades at a time? Is there a limit? 

Edited August 20, 2021 by dmacarelli

[Poolie]

11 minutes ago, Fluke said:

I was talking about this particular piece of information, rather than generally .

  Had Biden listened to this bit of info and heeded the advice , he would have been able to plan a timely evacuation 

OK, I should have specified. Sorry.

I meant generally.

 

 

[Fluke]

Just now, Poolie said:

OK, I should have specified. Sorry.

I meant generally.

O.K.

So what lies have the intelligence agencies told Joe ?

[shanghailoz]

19 minutes ago, stevenkongju said:

To prevent terrorist attacks that kill thousands. Nearly everyone other that ultra-pacifists agreed that NATO should go to Afghanistan in September 2001.

I think the terrorist attacks that killed thousands would be in the eyes of the beholder.

If you were Afghani, you might say that about the American's.

 

 

[Poolie]

3 minutes ago, Fluke said:

O.K.

So what lies have the intelligence agencies told Joe ?

All the Hong Kong stuff for starters.

But we've veered off topic.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Poolie
Omission

[gummy]

2 minutes ago, shanghailoz said:

I think the terrorist attacks that killed thousands would be in the eyes of the beholder.

If you were Afghani, you might say that about the American's.

 

The Iraqis certainly would as they lost a lot more.

[dmacarelli]

1 hour ago, gummy said:

They have illegally invaded or interfered in so many nations that by their own judgmental standards, then then the US military could qualify as a terrorist group themselves. Perhaps it is about  time the Chinese became the worlds policemen after all. Perhaps Afghanistan will be the start of that process.

That is one of my greatest fears. That the US influence will continue to wane, and China will pick up the ball. They are not, nor will they ever be responsible guardians of the "public trust", as long as the CCP is in control. Not that America was always that. But, the CCP has nothing but evil intentions, in my opinion. World domination. And not what I would call "an overlord that wears their power lightly".

 

 

Edited August 20, 2021 by dmacarelli

[Fluke]

1 minute ago, Poolie said:

All the Hong Kong stuff for starters.

Which lies were those ?

You have to name them specifically , rather than just generally 

[gummy]

1 minute ago, dmacarelli said:

That is one of my greatest fears. That the US influence will continue to wane, and China will pick up the ball. They are not, nor will they ever be responsible guardians of the "public trust", as long as the CCP is in control. Not that America was always that. But, the CCP has nothing but evil intentions, in my opinion. World domination. And not what I would call "an overlord that wears their power lightly".

But isn't world domination what all superpowers and previous empires always dreamt off anyway so why do you think the Chinese are any different from those currently or those before them ?

[gummy]

4 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

That is one of my greatest fears. That the US influence will continue to wane, and China will pick up the ball. They are not, nor will they ever be responsible guardians of the "public trust", as long as the CCP is in control. Not that America was always that. But, the CCP has nothing but evil intentions, in my opinion. World domination. And not what I would call "an overlord that wears their power lightly".

Which comics do you still read ?

[Poolie]

1 minute ago, Fluke said:

Which lies were those ?

You have to name them specifically , rather than just generally 

Even though I said 'all?'

[Fluke]

Just now, Poolie said:

Even though I said 'all?'

Ah right , so everything they say is a lie ,

Just a general "everything" , rather than stating any particular lie .

Thats not very convincing at all 

[9S_]

22 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

All the more reason why we should never be over there to begin with. For centuries nations have attempted to alter the power structure in Iraq and Afghanistan. And for what? 

Looked like a success to me 

Until Joe Biden came along:

 

 

aaannnnd he doesn’t care:

 

Taliban is having more press conferences than the resident. Joe is back to go on vacation for the weekend. For Joe, Thursday is the start of the weekend…

 

 

 

[stevenkongju]

17 minutes ago, shanghailoz said:

I think the terrorist attacks that killed thousands would be in the eyes of the beholder.

If you were Afghani, you might say that about the American's.

Are those the Afghanis desperately trying to get into Hamid Karzai Airport?

[Dancbmac]

On 8/16/2021 at 6:07 AM, JamesE said:

We're training soldiers who take the job because they need the money. There is no service to country ethos in a tribal nation. We try to build nations where a national identity does not exist within its borders.

You nailed it.  They do not think the same as Westerners and are basically trying to survive each day.  It is a tribal society and try to get money for their large families anyway they can.

[shanghailoz]

8 minutes ago, stevenkongju said:

Are those the Afghanis desperately trying to get into Hamid Karzai Airport?

If you've been working for the enemy, it typically makes sense to get out while you can.  

Being known as a collaborator is not typically seen as good thing in any scenario.

[longwood50]

1 hour ago, dmacarelli said:

it may not be a coincidence, that all wars fought by the US of any consequence, have been lost since 1945

First off " what is winning"?  That you have another serf state that you need to keep troops stationed indefinitely in?  Second, I am not sure the USA ever wanted to "win" the wars.  Much like a dermatologist, they want to keep treating the patient, never having them be cured.  

Those who profit from war do so by making the weapons of war and selling them over decades.  There never was a mandate to go into Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, or Iraq.   If you truly wanted capitulation on the part of the enemy you would level the entire country and seek out the enemy destroying both them, anyone who harbors or supports them and killing their friends and relatives.  However, the USA has no appetitive for that.  I know that sounds barbaric however that is the only way to deal with those who would strap explosive vests on women and children. 

A war should be the last possible alternative when there is no other option.  It should be done only when attacked, or to preserve something of immense national importance.  However the enemy must know that once that line is crossed and war is announced that they will have unleashed on fury from the gates of hell and there will be no mercy.  No "measured response"  The limited wars where there were only certain targets, no collateral damage, and only firing when fired upon is a certain recipe to never win.  These are not standing armies where our tanks, planes, and bombs can effectively eliminate them.  This is guerilla warfare where they strike and then hide.  That is a different tactic than WWII and to effectively defeat it takes different tactics also.  NO MERCY

With that said, I am a USA citizen and say the USA had no reason to start any of those conflicts.  If terrorism was such a threat than you employ drones, and seal teams to hunt out and destroy the cells as you find them.  Most importantly you don't let them enter the USA where they can inflict damage.  Instead, the USA welcomes them hidden as "refugees" and allows unrestricted access through our southern border guaranteeing that a certain number of terrorists will enter also. 

[dmacarelli]

41 minutes ago, gummy said:

Which comics do you still read ?

Are you convinced of the noble intentions of China?