Afghanistan Has Fallen

[gummy]

Just now, Fluke said:

Was that the guy who was responsible for organizing numerous terror attacks ?

You mean the Israeli PM, Netanayu ?

[Fluke]

Just now, gummy said:

You mean the Israeli PM, Netanayu ?

No, I didnt mean him .

I do believe that he is still alive and thus it couldn't have been him , let alone that he didnt even plan numerous terror attacks , so definitely wasn't him 

[mcambl61]

2 hours ago, dmacarelli said:

And a few thousand American soldiers, would have been effective against 70,000 Taliban? That is the real question. I agree the evacuation was botched. No doubt about that. The Afghans who helped us deserved better than this. 

With overwhelming air support, yes. Easily. What planet are you on? 

[Fester]

36 minutes ago, PBS said:

Not at all - backup your claim from credible sources

What? Like the Atlantic? 

[mcambl61]

41 minutes ago, PBS said:

LOL I see many trump types posting deflections - a number also from the other platform 

Funny, I see leftists who idolize the Obamanation even though he was a severely self serving corrupt communist stooge that started the race riots, invaded Libya for no reason, got citizens killed with his incompetence and used the corrupted doj and fbi to launch illegal surveillance against an opposition candidate. 

But then, these facts are not from your "approved" sources are they sunshine. 

Edited August 19, 2021 by mcambl61

[dmacarelli]

1 hour ago, 23RD said:

So by reading this paragraph it's understandable that your not a rabid lefty more off a moderate Democrat the sort of Democrat that was the majority not the exception within the Democrat party say 30 years ago.

As a moderate Democrat are you appalled at the way Joe Biden has conducted this withdrawal fiasco?

Yes. It could have, and should have been handled with far more vision, respect, and planning. Alot of blood, sweat, tears and trillions of dollars went into those two decades of efforts. And our men and women who served, deserved much better, as did the Afghan people.

As a democrat I am disappointed by so many elements of the democratic party, however not enough to defect.

The public lands are sacred to me, and the dems do a far better job of safeguarding them. Trump almost got away with selling off timber, mining, and oil rights , on tens of millions of acres of pristine wilderness. Thankfully he was blocked by the dems, and one of the first things Biden did, was to reverse the heinous and nearly catastrophic "orange stain land rape and abuse plan".

Edited August 19, 2021 by dmacarelli

[thai3]

On 8/16/2021 at 8:42 AM, kerryd said:

Wow.
Some people really need to learn some history.

Let me get you started:

Trump signed a deal (in Qatar) with the terrorists long before he lost (yes, lost) the election. That deal was signed in Feb 2020, when there were still about 13,000 American troops in Afghanistan.

"The Trump administration agreed to an initial reduction of its force level from 13,000 to 8,600 by July 2020, followed by a full withdrawal by May 1, 2021, if the Taliban kept its commitments"

That's right. Under Trump all the troops would have been out of the country months ago.

A part of the deal Trump made was that the US would no longer directly engage the terrorists.

Giving those terrorists free reign to train and equip and plan while Trump started reducing the number of troops in the country.

Between February and November, over 8,000 troops were sent back the USA, leaving barely 5,000 in Afghanistan.

Then, in November of 2020, Trump announced he was cutting that number by 50% !! (Look it up - the articles are from around 16 November 2020.)

That means when Biden took over, there were barely 2,500 American troops left in the whole country, including the ones guarding the Embassy and those still at the Bagram Air Base !

Yet some people want to blame Biden for the Taliban's success ?
As though those 2,500 troops would have made any difference at all ?

Not to mention that 5 days ago, American "Intelligence" estimated it would take the Taliban 3-12 months to take over.

Of course, almost no one (except me) was expecting the entire Afghan Army to immediately surrender the instant they saw any sign of anyone carrying a weapon.

I expected it because that is, literally, the history of war in Afghanistan. Whenever they have a war, when one side starts to lose, they will most often simply switch sides and start fighting for whoever they think is most likely to win.

Even if that's in the middle of a battle !! They will strike a deal with the "enemy" and then suddenly turn around and start attacking the people who were their friends and allies minutes earlier !

(The Afghan civil war that followed the Russian withdrawal was full of stories of warlords switching sides in the middle of battles.)

News articles over the last few days noted Army units simply surrendering and handing over their weapons and equipment without firing a shot.
Recent reports mentioned seeing Taliban fighters and Afghan Army soldiers mingling around the Kabul airport.

(Probably trying to find out where they've stashed all the alcohol and porn that gets confiscated by Customs.)

And yet some people think that the 2,500 soldiers Trump left in Afghanistan would have been able to stop the Taliban ?

Trump's deal with the terrorists in Feb 2020 set the stage for this to happen.

(BTW - I left the Canadian military, after 22 years of service, to go work in Afghanistan back in 2003. I ended up spending just over 10 years there.)

The whole debacle was caused by Biden pointlessly breaking that agreement

[dmacarelli]

1 hour ago, mcambl61 said:

And you are a rabid trump hating irrational unhinged "centrist" 

But then, you aren't a "liberal" 

Correct. Not all people who hate trump are liberals, as the media likes to paint them, in a stunningly simplistic fashion. I know a number of republicans who despise trump. 

I can see we disagree on most everything. The difference between you and me, is that I try not to make it personal. I dislike the man, but I do not dislike trump supporters, on any level. Most are good, hard working, honest people with different beliefs than I have. 

I try not to call them names, such as unhinged, or irrational. Why buy into the hateful division? It just reduces us to his level. I count alot of conservatives amongst close friends and family. We agree to disagree, always with respect. 

Edited August 19, 2021 by dmacarelli

[mcambl61]

1 minute ago, dmacarelli said:

Yes. It could have, and should have been handled with far more vision, respect, and planning.

As a democrat I am disappointed by so many elements of the democratic party, however not enough to defect.

The public lands are sacred to me, and the dems do a far better job of safeguarding them. Trump almost got away with selling off timber, mining, and oil rights , on tens of millions of acres of pristine wilderness. Thankfully he was blocked by the dems, and one of the first things Biden did, was to reverse the heinous and nearly catastrophic "orange stain land rape and abuse plan".

Blather. 

 

There is absolutely no reason for the federal government to hold so much land. 

It is obscene not to utilize portions of it. Much of it is uninhibited and desolate. 

 

No reason not to allow energy exploration and leases. It's obscene that the federal government claims so much land. 

 

You would have to be a complete idiot to think that some of it should not be used as a means to reduce the debt and increase the wealth of the nation. 

If you are over forty years old and still a democrat, common sense and reality are not in your future. 

 

 

[dmacarelli]

3 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

Blather. 

There is absolutely no reason for the federal government to hold so much land. 

It is obscene not to utilize portions of it. Much of it is uninhibited and desolate. 

No reason not to allow energy exploration and leases. It's obscene that the federal government claims so much land. 

You would have to be a complete idiot to think that some of it should not be used as a means to reduce the debt and increase the wealth of the nation. 

If you are over forty years old and still a democrat, common sense and reality are not in your future. 

And it is the most magnificent park, wilderness and recreational land system in the world. Alot of protected land, for good reasons. We cannot trust industry to take care of those lands. At least I don't! Nothing the least bit obscene about it, unless you are an industry lobbyist. It is a sacred trust. One of the wisest things the US government has ever done, in it's history. I have spent countless days and nights in these spectacular parks, and it is one of the aspects of being American that gives me the greatest pride. I doubt you will understand that. 

While visiting America’s national parks can be a highlight, don’t overlook the host of other protected areas throughout the U.S. that have so much to offer. State Parks, National Forests, Wilderness Areas, National Monuments and Conservation Areas are all managed by a bewildering array of agencies and each has a different purpose but all represent unique and beautiful places. If you are looking to get into the wild, these areas are often more remote, have less infrastructure, and offer countless possibilities for adventure. Areas like the Frank Church Wilderness in Idaho and Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument in Utah are among the largest, least populated and wildest areas in the country. They often sit along the borders of a national park, for example the Ansel Adams Wilderness can make a great side trip from Yosemite and the national forest areas surrounding Grand Teton National Park are home to some of our favorite hikes.

https://www.allroadsnorth.com/5-key-tactics-for-visiting-us-national-parks/

 

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by dmacarelli

[Jcamry1]

The Taliban had no graduates from West Point, Annapolis, Colorado Springs, Sandhurst, Dartmouth or Cranwell. Or from any of the military colleges of the West. They had no access to satellites, drones being driven from 8000 miles away, attack helicopters, massive logistic armies, rotating armies who could rest up and come back to haunt you. No computerized war rooms with back feeds to the COs. No fighter planes, no huge bombers with intelligent bombs. 
It looks to me that their few bits of mechanization consisted of a few Nokia phones and hundreds of Toyota HiLux pick ups. Few SAM missiles and a shitload of IEDs.

But,  they won.  Forget the talk about coalitions, this was very much Uncle Sam v the Taliban. Uncle Sam lost big time, like he did in Vietnam. When are the American people going to face facts? Outspending, out gunning, getting your young men killed? In the name of what? Bush’s Weapons of Mass Destruction war cost billions and is still doing so. This war ( and I forget the original reason ) has cost much more. The final act has caused reputational damage to many politicians and governments. History said this would happen.

Time to start forgetting about the “ World’s Policeman “ shit, spend the money on better things.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

Yes. It could have, and should have been handled with far more vision, respect, and planning. Alot of blood, sweat, tears and trillions of dollars went into those two decades of efforts. And our men and women who served, deserved much better, as did the Afghan people.

As a democrat I am disappointed by so many elements of the democratic party, however not enough to defect.

The public lands are sacred to me, and the dems do a far better job of safeguarding them. Trump almost got away with selling off timber, mining, and oil rights , on tens of millions of acres of pristine wilderness. Thankfully he was blocked by the dems, and one of the first things Biden did, was to reverse the heinous and nearly catastrophic "orange stain land rape and abuse plan".

Good to hear a Democrat willing to compromise dmacarelli mate I'm still very concerned an the direction of not just the Democrat but the the way The US is going under it my hope is there's still enough moderate centrist Democrats to pull it back from the brink .

[dmacarelli]

4 minutes ago, Jcamry1 said:

The Taliban had no graduates from West Point, Annapolis, Colorado Springs, Sandhurst, Dartmouth or Cranwell. Or from any of the military colleges of the West. They had no access to satellites, drones being driven from 8000 miles away, attack helicopters, massive logistic armies, rotating armies who could rest up and come back to haunt you. No computerized war rooms with back feeds to the COs. No fighter planes, no huge bombers with intelligent bombs. 
It looks to me that their few bits of mechanization consisted of a few Nokia phones and hundreds of Toyota HiLux pick ups. Few SAM missiles and a shitload of IEDs.

But,  they won.  Forget the talk about coalitions, this was very much Uncle Sam v the Taliban. Uncle Sam lost big time, like he did in Vietnam. When are the American people going to face facts? Outspending, out gunning, getting your young men killed? In the name of what? Bush’s Weapons of Mass Destruction war cost billions and is still doing so. This war ( and I forget the original reason ) has cost much more. The final act has caused reputational damage to many politicians and governments. History said this would happen.

Time to start forgetting about the “ World’s Policeman “ shit, spend the money on better things.

If one is to be considered rational, one has to embrace the reality that the US has not really prevailed in any war since WWII. Alot of hubris, and alot of delusion does into planning these ridiculous war games. 

[kerryd]

4 minutes ago, thai3 said:

The whole debacle was caused by Biden pointlessly breaking that agreement

He didn't break the agreement. All he did was extend the deadline Trump had set by 2 1/2 months.

And technically, the agreement hinged on the Taliban adhering to their side of the deal, which they didn't.

When the deal was first announced (back in Feb 2020) I commented (elsewhere) that the Taliban would violate the agreement before (figuratively) the ink had even dried on the signatures.

Which is basically what happened. They pretty much kept doing what they had been doing before, while the Americans stuck to their side of the deal, stopped attacking the Taliban and started withdrawing their troops.

When Biden took office, the deal called for all US troops to be gone by the end of May 2021. Trump had cut the total from 13,000 (in Feb 2020 when the deal was signed) to 2,500 by mid-November 2020.

Biden extended the May deadline to September, then brought it back to August. The Bagram Air Base was handed over in July and the remainder of the troops were to leave in August.

The only difference Biden made was that the Taliban made their move in August instead of in May. They didn't just cook up this idea after Biden became president.

It had been in the works ever since they signed the "peace deal" with Trump because that told them when all the Americans would be gone and gave them time to prepare because they knew the Americans wouldn't be attacking them in the meantime (in accordance with that peace deal). 

Had Trump actually won the election, all the troops would have been gone by the end of May and the Taliban would have take over then.

[dmacarelli]

3 minutes ago, 23RD said:

Good to hear a Democrat willing to compromise dmacarelli mate I'm still very concerned an the direction of not just the Democrat but the the way The US is going under it my hope is there's still enough moderate centrist Democrats to pull it back from the brink .

I sure hope so. Honestly, I think the US is more or less done. It's better days are behind it. There were many reasons I got out when I did, but things have only gotten worse. Unless you are quite wealthy, the US is not a happy place to live. And it is getting very expensive, with the out of control inflation, that few will admit to, and the divisions are only getting deeper. 

I always took pride in the tolerance of most Americans. Until Trump gave license to some of his most racist devotees. I do not see things improving for the US. I see if becoming less and less relevant, as time goes on. And who is going to step up and fill that vacuum? One hopes it will not be China. Their intentions are heinous, at best. 

[mcambl61]

5 minutes ago, 23RD said:

Good to hear a Democrat willing to compromise dmacarelli mate I'm still very concerned an the direction of not just the Democrat but the the way The US is going under it my hope is there's still enough moderate centrist Democrats to pull it back from the brink .

There aren't any real democrats left in DC. 

DC itself is a corrupt cesspool of lobbyists and self interests. 

 

Trump knew that from the beginning. That's why he's hated by both sides of the useless political establishment. 

 

They want things to not change and never make government and the people in it accountable. 

[mcambl61]

3 minutes ago, kerryd said:

He didn't break the agreement. All he did was extend the deadline Trump had set by 2 1/2 months.

And technically, the agreement hinged on the Taliban adhering to their side of the deal, which they didn't.

When the deal was first announced (back in Feb 2020) I commented (elsewhere) that the Taliban would violate the agreement before (figuratively) the ink had even dried on the signatures.

Which is basically what happened. They pretty much kept doing what they had been doing before, while the Americans stuck to their side of the deal, stopped attacking the Taliban and started withdrawing their troops.

When Biden took office, the deal called for all US troops to be gone by the end of May 2021. Trump had cut the total from 13,000 (in Feb 2020 when the deal was signed) to 2,500 by mid-November 2020.

Biden extended the May deadline to September, then brought it back to August. The Bagram Air Base was handed over in July and the remainder of the troops were to leave in August.

The only difference Biden made was that the Taliban made their move in August instead of in May. They didn't just cook up this idea after Biden became president.

It had been in the works ever since they signed the "peace deal" with Trump because that told them when all the Americans would be gone and gave them time to prepare because they knew the Americans wouldn't be attacking them in the meantime (in accordance with that peace deal). 

Had Trump actually won the election, all the troops would have been gone by the end of May and the Taliban would have take over then.

You are delusional, trump would have never been stupid enough to vacate Bagram air base and the air support until everyone was able to get out. 

 

Stop the ridiculous overreaction and vacuous conjecture. 

[thai3]

5 minutes ago, kerryd said:

He didn't break the agreement. All he did was extend the deadline Trump had set by 2 1/2 months.

And technically, the agreement hinged on the Taliban adhering to their side of the deal, which they didn't.

When the deal was first announced (back in Feb 2020) I commented (elsewhere) that the Taliban would violate the agreement before (figuratively) the ink had even dried on the signatures.

Which is basically what happened. They pretty much kept doing what they had been doing before, while the Americans stuck to their side of the deal, stopped attacking the Taliban and started withdrawing their troops.

When Biden took office, the deal called for all US troops to be gone by the end of May 2021. Trump had cut the total from 13,000 (in Feb 2020 when the deal was signed) to 2,500 by mid-November 2020.

Biden extended the May deadline to September, then brought it back to August. The Bagram Air Base was handed over in July and the remainder of the troops were to leave in August.

The only difference Biden made was that the Taliban made their move in August instead of in May. They didn't just cook up this idea after Biden became president.

It had been in the works ever since they signed the "peace deal" with Trump because that told them when all the Americans would be gone and gave them time to prepare because they knew the Americans wouldn't be attacking them in the meantime (in accordance with that peace deal). 

Had Trump actually won the election, all the troops would have been gone by the end of May and the Taliban would have take over then.

Changing the date WAS breaking the agreement, how did the Taliban react- they could show the Americans were liars and not men of their word, again. The Afghan government were as good as illegitimate, backed by liars and agreement breakers. So easy for the Taliban to gain support and then ignore the agreement as well, well done the worst President in American history. 

[9S_]

14 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

and the divisions are only getting deeper. 

 

14 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

Until Trump gave license to some of his most racist devotees

Well that helps. You’re literally doing the things you despise by hurling them at trump voters. If Trump was a racist he earned more Asian, black, LatinX voters than any other Republican presidential candidate. For a racist, he sure lowered the black unemployment to new lows. For such a racist president he went and got additional funding to HBCU. 
 

Maybe the divisions aren’t coming from Trump maybe it’s from somewhere else  

Edited August 19, 2021 by 9S_
Context added

[mcambl61]

33 minutes ago, dmacarelli said:

And it is the most magnificent park, wilderness and recreational land system in the world. Alot of protected land, for good reasons. We cannot trust industry to take care of those lands. At least I don't! Nothing the least bit obscene about it, unless you are an industry lobbyist. It is a sacred trust. One of the wisest things the US government has ever done, in it's history. I have spent countless days and nights in these spectacular parks, and it is one of the aspects of being American that gives me the greatest pride. I doubt you will understand that. 

While visiting America’s national parks can be a highlight, don’t overlook the host of other protected areas throughout the U.S. that have so much to offer. State Parks, National Forests, Wilderness Areas, National Monuments and Conservation Areas are all managed by a bewildering array of agencies and each has a different purpose but all represent unique and beautiful places. If you are looking to get into the wild, these areas are often more remote, have less infrastructure, and offer countless possibilities for adventure. Areas like the Frank Church Wilderness in Idaho and Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument in Utah are among the largest, least populated and wildest areas in the country. They often sit along the borders of a national park, for example the Ansel Adams Wilderness can make a great side trip from Yosemite and the national forest areas surrounding Grand Teton National Park are home to some of our favorite hikes.

https://www.allroadsnorth.com/5-key-tactics-for-visiting-us-national-parks/

Again, these parks are a sliver of the federal lands that are not inhabited or visited by anyone. 

 

Plenty of land to be available for energy and minerals. All of which reduce our needs for China and the Middle East. 

 

Not utilizing it is the height of tree hugging stupidity. 

 

They is plenty for both uses. 

 

Get over it. 

[Andrew Reeve]

We are getting very off topic on this thread and please return the conversation back to

Afghanistan Has Fallen

 

[kerryd]

24 minutes ago, thai3 said:

Changing the date WAS breaking the agreement, how did the Taliban react- they could show the Americans were liars and not men of their word, again. The Afghan government were as good as illegitimate, backed by liars and agreement breakers. So easy for the Taliban to gain support and then ignore the agreement as well, well done the worst President in American history. 

The Afghan government wasn't even invited to those peace talks or had any say in the peace deal the US signed.

And, as I mentioned, the deal was contingent on the Taliban upholding their side of it, which they didn't. So if you are going to caste blame, then at least caste it on the right people instead of scratching for some slim excuse to try and blame it on Biden.

And no, I'm not American (thankfully) so I don't have to drink any kool-aid and blindly follow whatever ideology I'm told to by my political leaders.

(And no, I'm not a "lefty" or a Liberal either. More like hard Conservative with the ability to think for myself and actually look at facts.)

It's almost funny. There was a recent article about yet another "90 something" German being arrested and charged for things that happened when he was a teenage prison guard at a concentration camp near the end of the war.

People - today - think that he and others like him - back then - should have known what was happening and "did something about it".

But look around today and see the crowds of Trump supporters who believe anything he says, even when it's proven to be an outright lie. 
For example, despite the fact they have not been able to find a single shred of evidence of any kind of mass election fraud, they still believe Trump when he claims the election was "stolen" from him.

No amount of proof that the election was fair will convince them because that would mean Trump lied and to them, everything Trump says is the absolute truth.

Even when it's proven to be a lie.

And people wonder how Hitler was able to rouse the nation to the point where they'd do literally anything he wanted them to ?

Look at the Trump supporters ready to overthrow the legally elected gov't of the US, simply because Trump claimed  - with ZERO evidence - that the election had been stolen from him.

And - today - people think that a 17 year old kid in Germany - back then - "should have known what was going on and done something about it".

[9S_]

6 minutes ago, kerryd said:

some slim excuse to try and blame it on Biden.

Is Biden president?

[kerryd]

59 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

Is Biden president?

He is now.
He wasn't when Trump signed the peace deal and agreed to remove all US troops from Afghanistan by last May. He wasn't when Trump cut the number of US troops in Afghanistan from 13,000 to just 2,500.

Funny how people keep ignoring that.

Of course, had Biden decided to send 10,000+ troops back into Afghanistan, all the Trump supporters would be blasting him for "wasting more American lives" on a failed cause and for "propping up a corrupt Afghan gov't".

While, again, completely ignoring the fact the US would have been completely out of Afghanistan 2 1/2 months ago if Trump was still in office.

 

[9S_]

29 minutes ago, kerryd said:

He is now.
He wasn't when Trump signed the peace deal and agreed to remove all US troops from Afghanistan by last May. He wasn't when Trump cut the number of US troops in Afghanistan from 13,000 to just 2,500.

Funny how people keep ignoring that.

Of course, had Biden decided to send 10,000+ troops back into Afghanistan, all the Trump supporters would be blasting him for "wasting more American lives" on a failed cause and for "propping up a corrupt Afghan gov't".

While, again, completely ignoring the fact the US would have been completely out of Afghanistan 2 1/2 months ago if Trump was still in office.

 

Is this Joe Biden talking about HIS DECISION to withdraw troops last month or is this Donald Trump?

 Here is Joe Biden going against his own intelligence community assessments regarding the collapse of the Afghan government. In his own decision to go against the intelligence community. 
 

 

Here is Kamala Harris talking about Joe Bidens decision to withdraw from Afghanistan 

https://nypost.com/2021/04/25/harris-was-last-voice-in-the-room-for-afghanistan-withdrawal/

 

Barack Obama praising Joe Biden’s decision to withdraw as well as numerous politicians

It was Bidens decision to scrap Trumps Crisis Response Plan which would prevent another Benghazi and set up a response team to evacuate Americans during a crisis

https://thenationalpulse.com/exclusive/bidens-state-dept-halted-trump-era-crisis-response-plan/

While Trump did withdraw troops on the last day of his presidency:

 

-Zero nada nil provincial capitals fell to the Taliban

-Kabul didn’t fall to the Taliban

-Begram airbase wasn’t abandoned in the dead of night without notifying any of our allies

-Afghanistan had a a functioning Air Force

This happened under Joe Biden, under his watch, while he vacationed at Camp David:

$1 Billion of American military equipment in the hands of the Taliban 

https://www.dailywire.com/news/disturbing-footage-shows-extent-of-weapons-seized-by-taliban-after-bidens-disastrous-pullout

People getting executed in broad daylight in the streets of Kabul: both women and children. Reports of people being whipped with chains

https://nypost.com/2021/08/18/images-show-barbaric-reality-in-taliban-controlled-afghanistan/
 

 

And the residents response?

https://www.opindia.com/2021/08/joe-biden-interview-abc-news-afghan-withdrawal-falling-off-airplanes/

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by 9S_
Context