Why we cannot talk about politics in Thailand freely?

[genobkk]

Over the last 22 years that I spent in Thailand, I have been always frustrated about the fact that I cannot express my thoughts and frustrations about certain things like politics. Now I find myself a victim of that being held hostage in this country because there is zero transparency and truthfulness. People like me to try to speak the truth get punished. Why Thailand? Why?

[Pinetree]

2 minutes ago, genobkk said:

Over the last 22 years that I spent in Thailand, I have been always frustrated about the fact that I cannot express my thoughts and frustrations about certain things like politics. Now I find myself a victim of that being held hostage in this country because there is zero transparency and truthfulness. People like me to try to speak the truth get punished. Why Thailand? Why?

Are you Thai?  Do you have Permanent Residency?  If you don't have one of those things then it's really none of your business. It's not your country. You are, at best, a temporary resident, subject to an annual extension of permission to remain. It makes no sense to get worked up about such things. 

[QECE]

Subject matter dependent.

I've found that discussions privately, among selected circles is quite ok and accepted. 

Publicly expressed, one might be lambasted [especially Farang]

 

 

Appears to be quite the same regardless of where one might be the world over. Applies greatly to the over sensitive West and in particular, Anglophone cultures.  

[Pinetree]

Very interesting that you, the OP, put an angry emoji on my reply. I assume that you are a farang.  Why angry? Do you believe that you have rights that Thai's do not have ? You don't of course.  Do you have the right to vote here? If not, why bother to get yourself into all kinds of trouble by debating things that you are not entitled to comment on, at least not publically. Very weird attitude. 

[23RD]

I've been a guest in this amazing Country for 12 odd years (and I always remember I'm a guest).

I've never mentioned the politics here as compared to my native UK the place is spot on barring Songkran in Pattaya. 

No complaints no suggestions just enjoying life in amazing Thailand. 

[1000YearVampire]

You're a guest, a guest doesn't criticize his hosts, it's up to them, to use some common Thai phraseology. Anyway, if we're talking about restriction of political freedom of expression, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

[NidNoi]

17 hours ago, Pinetree said:

Are you Thai?  Do you have Permanent Residency?  If you don't have one of those things then it's really none of your business. It's not your country. You are, at best, a temporary resident, subject to an annual extension of permission to remain. It makes no sense to get worked up about such things. 

Maybe you should remind all the Asians, Africans and Latinos who have entered illegally into western countries that they have no right in Western Europe and North America, no rights to demonstrate, no rights to social benefits and no rights to fight deportation. Where are the NGO’s and their army of lawyers in S.E Asia?

[MrStretch]

18 hours ago, genobkk said:

... I find myself a victim of that being held hostage in this country because there is zero transparency and truthfulness...

How are you being held hostage, in any way?  The fact that there's zero transparency and truthfulness is neither uniquely Thai or even rare.  Even in your home country there are politicians who do their best to obscure issues,  positions and facts for the simple reason it benefits them.  How do I know this without knowing your home country?  It's true in all countries.

This belief that you, I, or anyone else should have freedom to discuss a country's government or actions is rooted in our home country societies.  I've lived and worked in 10 different countries.  In NONE of them was I free, by custom or law, to criticize the host country's government or its actions.  That's just hubris.

Like you, I sometimes seethe at the idiocy of what I see, or the perceived childishness of certain politicians and their policies, statements and whatnot, but it's their country.  Not mine.  And not yours.

[AussieBob]

As mentioned several times by posters in this thread, the total lack of rights of Expats in Thailand means we are just tourists/guests and should just try and stay out of things - especially political and social.  It also reminds me of why I am so vehemently against ever paying any income taxes in Thailand on money that I bring into the country.  I stay out of the Thai things and have nothing to do with them (except what the wife wants to talk about) - but I expect them to stay out of mine in return.  Give me residency, voting, medical system, equal prices, no parole reporting or annual extensions, etc etc etc - then I will be happy to pay.  

[Pinetree]

1 hour ago, NidNoi said:

Maybe you should remind all the Asians, Africans and Latinos who have entered illegally into western countries that they have no right in Western Europe and North America, no rights to demonstrate, no rights to social benefits and no rights to fight deportation. Where are the NGO’s and their army of lawyers in S.E Asia?

Irrelevant to the OPs post. 

[NidNoi]

1 hour ago, Pinetree said:

Irrelevant to the OPs post. 

It demonstrate you have relinquished your basic human right of free speech. Genobkk just asked for the right to speak and debate freely. After 22 years in Thailand I guess he has spent enough money to support the livelihood of many Thais who ever they are. So he should be able to debate about the pro’s and con’s of Thailand as long you don’t insult or denigrate people.

[MrStretch]

37 minutes ago, NidNoi said:

... he should be able to debate about the pros and cons of Thailand...

Really?  Why? And this "basic human right of free speech" that you mentioned is a political concept that isn't embraced in this country.

For too long, Westerners have believed that their forms of government and the rights they enjoy and practice should be universal.

The fact of the matter is, not everyone subscribes to those notions.  For all of the blustering and protesting that farang make about not being able to comment on the machinations of the government here, the solution is quite simple.  Don't like that you can't talk about it?  Pack your bags.  You are owed absolutely nothing.

[Pinetree]

48 minutes ago, NidNoi said:

It demonstrate you have relinquished your basic human right of free speech. Genobkk just asked for the right to speak and debate freely. After 22 years in Thailand I guess he has spent enough money to support the livelihood of many Thais who ever they are. So he should be able to debate about the pro’s and con’s of Thailand as long you don’t insult or denigrate people.

Again, totally irrelevant.  22 Years gives him no more rights than he had in year one, to debate publically in and about a country in which he is no more than a guest. 

[NidNoi]

1 hour ago, Pinetree said:

Again, totally irrelevant.  22 Years gives him no more rights than he had in year one, to debate publically in and about a country in which he is no more than a guest. 

Freedom of expression is a fundamental universal human right enshrined in article 19 of the universal declaration of human rights. Just to remind all those who agree to censorship of expression, all members of the UN have signed this declaration and swore to endorse it and enforce this fundamental human right in their own countries.

 

[Pinetree]

52 minutes ago, NidNoi said:

Freedom of expression is a fundamental universal human right enshrined in article 19 of the universal declaration of human rights. Just to remind all those who agree to censorship of expression, all members of the UN have signed this declaration and swore to endorse it and enforce this fundamental human right in their own countries.

Don't be so naïve , there is no such right,  despite the meaningless UN paperwork .  Tell that to the people of China, Iran, Russia, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, North Korea,  most of the Russian satellite States, Myanmar, Indonesia, many African Nations, and a few more besides, in other words, the vast majority of the 7.8 Billion people on Earth. 

[NidNoi]

4 hours ago, Pinetree said:

Don't be so naïve , there is no such right,  despite the meaningless UN paperwork .  Tell that to the people of China, Iran, Russia, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, North Korea,  most of the Russian satellite States, Myanmar, Indonesia, many African Nations, and a few more besides, in other words, the vast majority of the 7.8 Billion people on Earth. 

I conclude from your statement that you put Thailand among the nations listed above in a “few more besides”. That makes genobkk’s statement valid.

[Marc26]

10 hours ago, NidNoi said:

It demonstrate you have relinquished your basic human right of free speech. Genobkk just asked for the right to speak and debate freely. After 22 years in Thailand I guess he has spent enough money to support the livelihood of many Thais who ever they are. So he should be able to debate about the pro’s and con’s of Thailand as long you don’t insult or denigrate people.

What does his choice to support Thais have anything to do with it?

 

It is so ridiculous when expats constant bring up how much they support Thais and the economy around them

 

Unless they own a big company that actual employs 10's-100's of Thais they aren't doing anything but living there life 

 

 

It be like me saying I should be treated extra special because I have kids in Canada or the US

 

Expats are just living the life they choose to and expect to be treated like special because of it

 

It's an absurd notion that is constantly pushed on these forums 

[Marc26]

On 2/16/2024 at 3:01 AM, Pinetree said:

Are you Thai?  Do you have Permanent Residency?  If you don't have one of those things then it's really none of your business. It's not your country. You are, at best, a temporary resident, subject to an annual extension of permission to remain. It makes no sense to get worked up about such things. 

I do agree with you but it's frustrating if you have a Thai family and you see their feudalism 

 

When the country's poor worship people that give them crumbs when they take all the riches.....

 

 

But I do basically stay out of it

Really only voicing my opinion to my wife(she never really wants it though 555)

[NidNoi]

9 hours ago, Marc26 said:

What does his choice to support Thais have anything to do with it?

It is so ridiculous when expats constant bring up how much they support Thais and the economy around them

Unless they own a big company that actual employs 10's-100's of Thais they aren't doing anything but living there life 

It be like me saying I should be treated extra special because I have kids in Canada or the US

Expats are just living the life they choose to and expect to be treated like special because of it

It's an absurd notion that is constantly pushed on these forums 

https://www.reuters.com/markets/asia/thai-economy-recession-needs-boost-finance-official-2024-01-29/
 

It’s not a coincidence if TAT wants to boost long term visits to Thailand by increasing visa exempt entries. The migration rate to Thailand has been on the decline (0.73% in 2023, 0.36% in 2022, 0.72% in 2021, 0.37% in 2020…) The trend has been the same for the last 10 years and its effect is quite visible in most provinces.

[Vigo]

19 hours ago, NidNoi said:

Freedom of expression is a fundamental universal human right enshrined in article 19 of the universal declaration of human rights. Just to remind all those who agree to censorship of expression, all members of the UN have signed this declaration and swore to endorse it and enforce this fundamental human right in their own countries.

Not exactly. It does not give the right to a foreign person, a non citizen, to enter another nation and to then start making statements that can be deemed to go against local moral standards, or to make statements that can be considered to violate local laws.  Why would you think, let alone expect that a foreigner would have that right?   You are in effect arguing that people who may serve a foreign  power should have a free hand.  Yes, some  western nations allow foreigners to engage in many activities that are upsetting to the locals, but that is the folly of those countries.

It is the height of arrogance to demand that foreigners should be able to enter Thailand and to criticize anything they wish. It is not their country, not their citizenship. Until they are emancipated and deemed Thai citizens, foreigners have few rights in respect to political activity.

 

[Pinetree]

15 hours ago, NidNoi said:

I conclude from your statement that you put Thailand among the nations listed above in a “few more besides”. That makes genobkk’s statement valid.

No, I don't

[Marc26]

1 hour ago, NidNoi said:

https://www.reuters.com/markets/asia/thai-economy-recession-needs-boost-finance-official-2024-01-29/
 

It’s not a coincidence if TAT wants to boost long term visits to Thailand by increasing visa exempt entries. The migration rate to Thailand has been on the decline (0.73% in 2023, 0.36% in 2022, 0.72% in 2021, 0.37% in 2020…) The trend has been the same for the last 10 years and its effect is quite visible in most provinces.

We have a house in Nonthaburi 

Not a foreigner in sight and none needed....

 

You could take every expat who ridiculously thinks "they support the economy " and boot them tomorrow and Thailand wouldn't blink an eye....

[Pinetree]

31 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

We have a house in Nonthaburi 

Not a foreigner in sight and none needed....

You could take every expat who ridiculously thinks "they support the economy " and boot them tomorrow and Thailand wouldn't blink an eye....

That is true, but many expats will not acknowledge it, or don't want to see it.  Throughout history Thailand, or more correctly in those days, Siam, was always a xenophobic society, that largely excluded foreigners and foreign influences.  It would not take much for this place to partially revert. 

[CROUCHIE]

Because Thais are paranoid and thick.

[Marc26]

9 hours ago, Pinetree said:

That is true, but many expats will not acknowledge it, or don't want to see it.  Throughout history Thailand, or more correctly in those days, Siam, was always a xenophobic society, that largely excluded foreigners and foreign influences.  It would not take much for this place to partially revert. 

There is a massive outdoor restaurant down the street from us

Must seat 1000 people easy

And these aren't 100baht dishes either 

 

It's packed every day of the week

 

The small outdoor mall near us

With places like Fuji, Swenson's

All places that have basically Western prices

 

Packed every single day

 

Thailand doesn't need us

 

Even in a small village 

They don't need you.....

 

And your(our) or car or the pocket money we give our wives, doesn't mean shit to the economy