News Forum - Covid-19 screening not necessary for China arrivals

[Vigo]

23 hours ago, Khunmark said:

Except that a new variant could originate from anywhere.

Yes, it can, and that is precisely the issue. The rest of the world shares information and co-operates with the WHO. China REFUSES to provide current information, and DOES NOT share reliable data. The world cannot protect against a variant  that China intentionally conceals. The Chinese have already damaged the world's economy once snd killed millions because of their lack of honesty and transparency.

22 hours ago, Manu said:

The NHS has been on the verge of collapse for years, not just this year because of flu, covid, etc...

2015 : https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/sep/19/nhs-collapse-former-health-minister-norman-lamb

2012 : https://www.bbc.com/news/health-19577489

etc... etc...

Perhaps then British people should be also tested for Scarlet Fever, Respiratory Viruses, Flu and Covid before entering Thailand (as most European countries since it is happening everywhere in Europe) . Why should Thailand allow all these viruses to enter the country?

Because the people most at risk are not traveling to Thailand from the UK .The current UK respiratory illness crisis is a direct result of the Covid pandemic. Scarlet fever and the pediatric respiratory virus pandemics reflect the environment of early Covid because  children could not access their  pediatric vaccines as per schedule and were not exposed to natural immune system building exposures. The flu epidemic is seasonal and manageable on its own. Because it occurs at the same time Covid is still ongoing, there is a cumulative impact on available health personnel. 

Were you aware that vaccine resistance is  typically a reflection of education, social status and financial condition? In plain language, the lower the education level, the lower the social status, and the poorer, the more likely to resist being vaccinated. (For example; COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy and resistance: Correlates in a nationally representative longitudinal survey of the Australian population   Ben Edwards ,Nicholas Biddle, Matthew Gray,Kate Sollis Published: March 24, 202  https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0248892.    

 

Of course there are some more blunt  assessments such as the finding that those who are most opposed are psychologically impaired. “Deep-Seated Psychological Histories of COVID-19 Vaccine Hesitance and Resistance,” Terrie Moffitt, Avshalom Caspi, Anthony Ambler, Kyle Bourassa, HonaLee Harrington, Sean Hogan, Renate Houts, Sandhya Ramrakha, Stacy Wood, Richie Poulton. PNAS Nexus, March 24, 2022. DOI: 10.1093/pnasnexus/pgac034

The point is not the mental or social status of the non vsccinated. Rather, it is the fact that these people  typically do not have passports let alone leave their homelands, so your suggetsion is not a concern.

 

 

 

 

[Manu]

5 hours ago, Vigo said:

Because the people most at risk are not traveling to Thailand from the UK .The current UK respiratory illness crisis is a direct result of the Covid pandemic. Scarlet fever and the pediatric respiratory virus pandemics reflect the environment of early Covid because  children could not access their  pediatric vaccines as per schedule and were not exposed to natural immune system building exposures. The flu epidemic is seasonal and manageable on its own. Because it occurs at the same time Covid is still ongoing, there is a cumulative impact on available health personnel. 
 

Not at all. Every single year for years the same impact on year after year reduced personnel (to save money) has been happening...way before covid. It is not the cumulative impact of this and that this year, it is and has been for years the way the NHS was going to crash because of many factors. But I prefer real stories than any study: last time I went to A&E in the Uk was 6 years ago. I had to get a 15 miles taxi ride to get there cause the big hospital a mile away from my home had closed their A&E the year before. I waited hours and hours with my broken foot and when I finally saw a doctor, I thought he was on drugs...he was just completely burned out due to a never ending shift cause the lack of doctors. 20 years ago, my ex had waited in pain for over 2 years to get a knee operation...they called one evening for her to come the next day or she would be back at the back of the queue for god knows how long (that was 20 years ago). I am sure you know 100s of stories like that as I do. So yes you were right, as many have warned over the years (like in the articles i provided in my previous comment), the NHS is on the edge of collapsing , but not just this year and because of cumulative impact of this and that - if the NHS had not been on the edge of collapsing for years, it would cope with what is happening at the moment just fine. Maybe now it is just the time it will happen for real: no more edge, just collapse.

Quote

 

Were you aware that vaccine resistance is  typically a reflection of education, social status and financial condition? In plain language, the lower the education level, the lower the social status, and the poorer, the more likely to resist being vaccinated. (For example; COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy and resistance: Correlates in a nationally representative longitudinal survey of the Australian population   Ben Edwards ,Nicholas Biddle, Matthew Gray,Kate Sollis Published: March 24, 202  https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0248892.    

Of course there are some more blunt  assessments such as the finding that those who are most opposed are psychologically impaired. “Deep-Seated Psychological Histories of COVID-19 Vaccine Hesitance and Resistance,” Terrie Moffitt, Avshalom Caspi, Anthony Ambler, Kyle Bourassa, HonaLee Harrington, Sean Hogan, Renate Houts, Sandhya Ramrakha, Stacy Wood, Richie Poulton. PNAS Nexus, March 24, 2022. DOI: 10.1093/pnasnexus/pgac034

The point is not the mental or social status of the non vsccinated. Rather, it is the fact that these people  typically do not have passports let alone leave their homelands, so your suggetsion is not a concern.

 

Yes I am aware of this. However the difference is not that big that it could not happen that plenty of people would fly to Thailand with one the viruses you mentioned and spread it. And your study is not very convincing either, based on 3000 people:

Quote

Overall, 59% would definitely get the vaccine, 29% had low levels of hesitancy, 7% had high levels of hesitancy and 6% were resistant.

But anyway I am not sure what this has to do with what I said. Viruses hit everyone so plenty could arrive to Thailand from the UK with one of them. And finally, like I said, I prefer real life experiences... you have to take my word for it of course. I have a bar here and everyday I meet British people (and from other countries) who did not get vaccinated for covid, it suprises me that there are so many. Noone of them seems mentally ill or socially unstable (well they all could afford a very expensive flight). And amongst the vaccinated, the vast majority seem to have been somehow forced to get the first 2 doses for different reasons and have 0 intention of getting another shot, especially the under 50s. Like me, they do not feel like they need it, most of us had covid 1, 2 or 3 times anyway. Yes of course, I am talking about those current covid vaccines, obviously not vaccines generally.

[Rookiescot]

6 hours ago, Vigo said:

Were you aware that vaccine resistance is  typically a reflection of education, social status and financial condition? In plain language, the lower the education level, the lower the social status, and the poorer, the more likely to resist being vaccinated.

Bigger chance of being convinced by some lunatic conspiracy theory more like.

I remember people who claimed covid was fake. Then when it was obviously real these guys switched to it being caused by 5G transmitters. The vaccines had a Bill Gates microchip in them. etc etc etc.

Basically every time their conspiracy theory regarding covid and the vaccinations was shot down they came up with another one.

[Manu]

14 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Bigger chance of being convinced by some lunatic conspiracy theory more like.

I remember people who claimed covid was fake. Then when it was obviously real these guys switched to it being caused by 5G transmitters. The vaccines had a Bill Gates microchip in them. etc etc etc.

Basically every time their conspiracy theory regarding covid and the vaccinations was shot down they came up with another one.

Luckily, between a tiny minority of what you named (rightly) lunatics and the covid vaccines fanatics, there is the majority of people, who can think, question and debate rationally, and also can think and chose for themselves (righlty) wether they need a covid vaccine or not, in other words if covid is a danger to them or not that a vaccine is needed to be protected without having to undergo pressures and more (restrictions of freedom like vaccine passes and QR codes and other non-science based stuff like that) from governements, mainstream media and their blind followers.

[Alavan]

Screening not necessary, and the you see that a Chinese tested positive on arrival in South-Korea, and escaped quarantaine. Police are looking for him.

https://thethaiger.com/news/world/infected-chinese-tourist-escapes-quarantine-in-south-korea

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, Manu said:

Luckily, between a tiny minority of what you named (rightly) lunatics and the covid vaccines fanatics, there is the majority of people, who can think, question and debate rationally, and also can think and chose for themselves (righlty) wether they need a covid vaccine or not, in other words if covid is a danger to them or not that a vaccine is needed to be protected without having to undergo pressures and more (restrictions of freedom like vaccine passes and QR codes and other non-science based stuff like that) from governements, mainstream media and their blind followers.

I get what you are saying Manu but the compelling reason I got vaccinated was to try and protect others. If (as I think we can agree) the vaccinations reduce the severity of the infection then they also reduce how long you are contagious for. 

Like you I believe I was at little risk from covid, other than being ill for a week but if I can reduce that to half a week then its worth getting.

I think some of the restrictions placed on people who had not been vaccinated were somewhat draconian but were introduced to simply make people who were mildly skeptical go and get one anyway. In that regard they were probably successful.

In no way, shape or fashion would I support compulsory vaccination though.

As an aside I always thought calling them vaccinations was the wrong term. Vaccination conjures up in our minds complete protection. They should have called it a "mitigator" or something like that. 

[Soidog]

On 1/3/2023 at 1:42 AM, HiuMak said:

Brave decision

Or foolish? Time will tell, unless it’s hidden like it is in China 

[Soidog]

On 1/4/2023 at 4:14 AM, Manu said:

Perhaps then British people should be also tested for Scarlet Fever, Respiratory Viruses, Flu and Covid before entering Thailand (as most European countries since it is happening everywhere in Europe) . Why should Thailand allow all these viruses to enter the country?

Because it’s rare for scarlet fever to be  asymptomatic and is easily treated with antibiotics and hence not as deadly as Covid. The same is true with Flu where it is unusual to be asymptomatic. Covid is already rife in Thailand anyway, so why would you discriminate when the variants circulating in the U.K. are the same as Thailand? 
 

On the issue of the NHS being near collapse. As you say, according to left wing media outlets like the Guardian and the BBC, it’s been like that for years, yet it’s never collapsed. If the NHS stopped all of the stupid nonsense treatments like gastric bands for greedy fat people who can’t show self control, or the crazies that want to change sex, then the £130 Billion it costs tax payers would be more than enough. I honestly think the whole things is vastly over exaggerated and if you were to compare it to the Thai public health system for example, then it’s still a first class service. First world entitlement of people is what’s driving this nonsense. 

[Khunmark]

23 hours ago, Vigo said:

Yes, it can, and that is precisely the issue. The rest of the world shares information and co-operates with the WHO. China REFUSES to provide current information, and DOES NOT share reliable data. The world cannot protect against a variant  that China intentionally conceals. The Chinese have already damaged the world's economy once snd killed millions because of their lack of honesty and transparency.

Because the people most at risk are not traveling to Thailand from the UK .The current UK respiratory illness crisis is a direct result of the Covid pandemic. Scarlet fever and the pediatric respiratory virus pandemics reflect the environment of early Covid because  children could not access their  pediatric vaccines as per schedule and were not exposed to natural immune system building exposures. The flu epidemic is seasonal and manageable on its own. Because it occurs at the same time Covid is still ongoing, there is a cumulative impact on available health personnel. 

Were you aware that vaccine resistance is  typically a reflection of education, social status and financial condition? In plain language, the lower the education level, the lower the social status, and the poorer, the more likely to resist being vaccinated. (For example; COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy and resistance: Correlates in a nationally representative longitudinal survey of the Australian population   Ben Edwards ,Nicholas Biddle, Matthew Gray,Kate Sollis Published: March 24, 202  https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0248892.    

Of course there are some more blunt  assessments such as the finding that those who are most opposed are psychologically impaired. “Deep-Seated Psychological Histories of COVID-19 Vaccine Hesitance and Resistance,” Terrie Moffitt, Avshalom Caspi, Anthony Ambler, Kyle Bourassa, HonaLee Harrington, Sean Hogan, Renate Houts, Sandhya Ramrakha, Stacy Wood, Richie Poulton. PNAS Nexus, March 24, 2022. DOI: 10.1093/pnasnexus/pgac034

The point is not the mental or social status of the non vsccinated. Rather, it is the fact that these people  typically do not have passports let alone leave their homelands, so your suggetsion is not a concern.

You really are all over the place on this. An early post of yours welcomed the news that Thailand was lifting restrictions on travel. Asserting that high level community exposure and vaccinations meant subsequent variants would pose minimal health risks. Maybe a bit of China exceptionalism at play here.

[Manu]

On 1/5/2023 at 10:46 PM, Soidog said:

Because it’s rare for scarlet fever to be  asymptomatic and is easily treated with antibiotics and hence not as deadly as Covid. The same is true with Flu where it is unusual to be asymptomatic. Covid is already rife in Thailand anyway, so why would you discriminate when the variants circulating in the U.K. are the same as Thailand? 
 

On the issue of the NHS being near collapse. As you say, according to left wing media outlets like the Guardian and the BBC, it’s been like that for years, yet it’s never collapsed. If the NHS stopped all of the stupid nonsense treatments like gastric bands for greedy fat people who can’t show self control, or the crazies that want to change sex, then the £130 Billion it costs tax payers would be more than enough. I honestly think the whole things is vastly over exaggerated and if you were to compare it to the Thai public health system for example, then it’s still a first class service. First world entitlement of people is what’s driving this nonsense. 

Contradicting for the sake of it, Soidog.

I will pass on answering the first paragraph: I do not have the time nor the will for it.

As for the NHS: you are showing your true side there. I could not care less about the BBC (i cancel my TV licence many years ago because of the BBC) or the Bill Gates funded Guardian: I just wanted to give mainstream media sources cause this seems to be where most people get fed. But for example, have you ever tried to find an NHS dentist where you live the past 10/15 years? Probably not cause you are most likely going for a private one. Most people can obviously not afford this. I used to go private when I lived in England. Shortly after I moved to Wales in 2010, I had an emergency so I called all private dentists around my new home, not one could give me an emergency appointment. So I tried with the NHS one, they could not either. So I ended up calling the NHS emergency line, I got an appointment with a NHS one...9 miles away (my home is in a middle size city, at least 5 or 6 NHS dentists closer to my home), 2 days later: I was in agony. I have given 2 other life experience exemples in my previous comment, I know 100s more as I am sure you do. Contradicting for the sake of it, Soidog. A "first class service" (you omitted the word "public": on purpose?) should be able to afford the "crazies" (as you called them: well done, a true open minded - but please do not answer to that, I am not interested) needs as well as helping every people to stay in good health and be treated humanly. It is not the case. The NHS is not anymore a first class service, has not been for ages and it is simply getting worst.

Is The Spectator right-wing enough for you? Or do you want me to find for you a source that is a little further to the Right?

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-nhs-is-collapsing-these-figures-prove-it/

And how can a first class PUBLIC service could stay first class when you are reducing the ressources to treat people while the population is increasing?

In 2000: 240,144 hospital beds.

in 2021: 157,884 hospital beds.

(https://www.statista.com/statistics/473264/number-of-hospital-beds-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/)

Are we less ill in 2021 than in 2000? Well the current chaos and the last 3 years are telling us a different story. Explain to me why in the middle of APPARENTLY the worst health crisis the amount of hospital beds have continued to decline (2019: 163,873 - 2020: 162,723 - 2021: 157,804)? 5000 less beds during APPARENTLY the worst time of covid? Is it because of the "crazies"??? Is the Mighty Great Britain not one of the richest country in the world anymore that it cannot afford to treat its population humanly and efficiently anymore? Where is the money going then?? Getting back, let's say 10% of the money that leaves the UK for tax heavens would bring back the wonderful public service that used to be the NHS. I am sure that is the will of Sunak and likewise politicians.

Ironically, being from France I have seen the exact same happening there and the health care system going from the best one in the world to a dramatic second class public service. The result of liberal managements for so many years, including through a socialist government (people like Mister Tony whom call themselves socialists). But being liberal yourself that is probably what you wish, a system like in the US, people whom have done well like you can afford it, for the others, the reality is to live for years without seeking treatments, loosing their teeth, etc... I have done well for myself too so why would I care? Cause unlike you, I am not selfish.

And why comparing with Thailand? When you step on a cow's poo, your shoe is covered with s**t. When you step on a dog's poo, you have less s**t on your shoe. Nevertheless both shoes will need to be cleaned up. That's my comparaison to you since you wanted one.

[Soidog]

6 hours ago, Manu said:

Contradicting for the sake of it, Soidog.

 

 

That was a long post, so let me try to pick out the bones of it. 

Im not sure why you think I’m contradicting for the sake of it? This is an opinion based forum. I gave my opinion which obviously you found disagreeable

6 hours ago, Manu said:

As for the NHS: you are showing your true side there.

 

I hope I show my true side in all my posts. Do you present a false one? 

My opinions, like most people, are based on where I was born, the upbringing I received and my personal experiences.  This leads me to conclude the NHS is a first class public service, certainly far better than many other public services and far better than many other countries  

6 hours ago, Manu said:

But for example, have you ever tried to find an NHS dentist where you live the past 10/15 years? Probably not cause you are most likely going for a private one.

I pay a monthly amount of £18 to my dentist. That gets me two check up and clean each year. An x-ray every two years and 25% off any remedial work required. Many people who claim not to be able to afford private dental care are happy to spend money on Netflix, Sky satellite TV, online Bingo and drink 20 pints of beer each week. Their priorities are all wrong in my opinion. These are the people who then block access to services for the genuine people who can’t afford it.  Im not sure why you seem to indicate being able to pay for something is a crime.

The NHS always used private practices to provide dental care. Ever since the 1980’s, these private companies have wanted to charge the NHS more, or simply stopped taking patients for free treatment. It’s been a slow and gradual decline over the past 40 years. I use to go to an NHS dentist but have adjusted my spending to take care of myself as it was clear it wasn’t going to last. I don’t expect the NHS to start opening up NHS owned and run dentists. In an emergency such as an accident, the NHS would take care of my immediate dental requirements.

6 hours ago, Manu said:

The NHS is not anymore a first class service, has not been for ages and it is simply getting worst.

Over the past 54 years, me and close family members have needed the NHS for emergencies or serious health issues on only 6 occasions. Each one was handled quickly, expertly and in a First class way. The private costs for such work would have been £50k-£100k. It was of course essentially “free” with the NHS. Perhaps I was lucky or perhaps what we are seeing now in the media highlighting those relatively few who are unlucky and blowing it out of proportion. That’s what U.K. media does. It’s not balanced anymore and sensationalises issues.

The NHS, like any volume based business, can not resource up for the maximum, once in a decade peak volume. If they did, then there would be times where hospital wards were empty and doctors and nurses would be sat around. The media would then run investigative programmes highlighting the waste in the NHS and everyone would be crying foul !! 

What we are seeing at the moment is an unprecedented amount of volume inputing to the NHS. A combination of Covid, High seasonal flu and other problems and the backlog from lockdown. Adding to this is the ultra left wing communist Trade Unions who are taking advantage of the situation. This will pass. It will get better. That doesn’t mean the NHS has failed. Unlike a restaurant that can turn away customers when they have no tables, the NHS can’t do that. So waiting times increase. Non emergency treatments get cancelled and the media have a field day. 

There is of course a lot of things wrong with the NHS. What organisation or industry that employs 1,500,000 people doesn’t have problems? There is massive duplication and waste in the NHS. However, I am confident, based on my experience to date, that if and when I need the NHS, it will generally be a first class service. 
 

6 hours ago, Manu said:

And why comparing with Thailand?

Because this is a Thailand centric forum. I have personal experience of health care in the U.K. and in Thailand. As this is “Thaiger Talk”. I thought it helpful to comment on Thailand.

 

 

 

[JohninDublin]

On 1/1/2023 at 12:01 PM, Soidog said:

I believe that’s one of the things the U.K. is looking to do. It was done routinely in the U.K. during the pandemic and was one way in which a new variant was identified. 

The UK surveillance detected Polio in the sewage. Recently, Diptheria has been discovered among the "Boat People". I am not linking all this to the Boat People, but there hasn't been a case of Polio in the UK since 1984, and an epidemic since 1956, thanks to vaxxing. Europe has been Polio free since 2003. All I ever really knew about the other illness, was seeing the franking marks on envelopes stating, "Diptheria Kills. Have Your Child Immunised". Apparently the last outbreak was 1942. I never knew of anyone being infected in the UK, even through second or third-hand knowledge.

I mention this because it only needs one undetected case to slip by, and suddenly we are almost back to the dark ages. I had polio as a child in the 1956 epidemic. To give you some idea how complacent we are about this disease, I mentioned to my GP, that I'd had the disease and mentioned recalling how I'd spent 6 weeks in an Iron Lung, and though not a young man, he was totally unaware that this was one of the treatments for the disease.

But I digress. Comparatively speaking, the 1940's and 50's are the "dark ages" of medicine, and it was only advances in both vaccinations and surveillance that eradicated these oubreaks. I would guess that complaints about the efficacy of Sinovax have not improved. Yet the Chinese are taking exception to us testing their nationals, when 2 of the most serious hotspots are China, and their satellite, Hong Kong. I'd suggest that the UK tells China, that their nationals will be subject to strict scrutiny and will, if found to be infected, be quarantined. The only way they will be released ahead of the protocol, is if China sends aircaraft to repatriate. 

If China indulge in "tit-for-tat", I will have no complaints, because like the UK, they are entitled to take necessary measures to protect their population.

[JohninDublin]

1 hour ago, Soidog said:

That was a long post, so let me try to pick out the bones of it. 

Im not sure why you think I’m contradicting for the sake of it? This is an opinion based forum. I gave my opinion which obviously you found disagreeable

I hope I show my true side in all my posts. Do you present a false one? 

My opinions, like most people, are based on where I was born, the upbringing I received and my personal experiences.  This leads me to conclude the NHS is a first class public service, certainly far better than many other public services and far better than many other countries  

I pay a monthly amount of £18 to my dentist. That gets me two check up and clean each year. An x-ray every two years and 25% off any remedial work required. Many people who claim not to be able to afford private dental care are happy to spend money on Netflix, Sky satellite TV, online Bingo and drink 20 pints of beer each week. Their priorities are all wrong in my opinion. These are the people who then block access to services for the genuine people who can’t afford it.  Im not sure why you seem to indicate being able to pay for something is a crime.

The NHS always used private practices to provide dental care. Ever since the 1980’s, these private companies have wanted to charge the NHS more, or simply stopped taking patients for free treatment. It’s been a slow and gradual decline over the past 40 years. I use to go to an NHS dentist but have adjusted my spending to take care of myself as it was clear it wasn’t going to last. I don’t expect the NHS to start opening up NHS owned and run dentists. In an emergency such as an accident, the NHS would take care of my immediate dental requirements.

Over the past 54 years, me and close family members have needed the NHS for emergencies or serious health issues on only 6 occasions. Each one was handled quickly, expertly and in a First class way. The private costs for such work would have been £50k-£100k. It was of course essentially “free” with the NHS. Perhaps I was lucky or perhaps what we are seeing now in the media highlighting those relatively few who are unlucky and blowing it out of proportion. That’s what U.K. media does. It’s not balanced anymore and sensationalises issues.

The NHS, like any volume based business, can not resource up for the maximum, once in a decade peak volume. If they did, then there would be times where hospital wards were empty and doctors and nurses would be sat around. The media would then run investigative programmes highlighting the waste in the NHS and everyone would be crying foul !! 

What we are seeing at the moment is an unprecedented amount of volume inputing to the NHS. A combination of Covid, High seasonal flu and other problems and the backlog from lockdown. . This will pass. It will get better. That doesn’t mean the NHS has failed. Unlike a restaurant that can turn away customers when they have no tables, the NHS can’t do that. So waiting times increase. Non emergency treatments get cancelled and the media have a field day. 

There is of course a lot of things wrong with the NHS. What organisation or industry that employs 1,500,000 people doesn’t have problems? There is massive duplication and waste in the NHS. However, I am confident, based on my experience to date, that if and when I need the NHS, it will generally be a first class service. 
 

Because this is a Thailand centric forum. I have personal experience of health care in the U.K. and in Thailand. As this is “Thaiger Talk”. I thought it helpful to comment on Thailand.

I was so impressed with your post unil I read, "Adding to this is the ultra left wing communist Trade Unions who are taking advantage of the situation". 

Couple of points. Communism more or less died a death after the fall of the Berlin Wall. The only place it actively flourishes, is rent free in the heads of uninformed right-wingers. But just in case I am mistaken, perhaps you can name these ultra left wing communist Trade Unions.

Of course another explanation of what is taking place, is that since 2010, NHS workers have seen their wages cut in real terms by 15%, and offering 4% ish when inflation is over 10% would increase that cut to 20%. Public sector workers, particularly in the NHS have had enough of real term wage cuts, from a gov that is prepared to discuss anything with them, except pay increases.

[JohninDublin]

9 hours ago, Manu said:

In 2000: 240,144 hospital beds.

in 2021: 157,884 hospital beds.

(https://www.statista.com/statistics/473264/number-of-hospital-beds-in-the-united-kingdom-uk/)

 

Just a comment on those stats. I couldn't not say if Ireland where I now live, costs the same as the NHS,s  but if a bed or ward is taken out of service as an economy measure, the saving is €300k per bed. Presuming it's about the same for the NHS, to reinstate all those beds would require about £23 BN, and require about 290k staff to service them.

I have not seen the stats for NHS staff in 2000-v-2021, but I would not be surprised if these too have been reduced.

[Soidog]

56 minutes ago, JohninDublin said:

I was so impressed with your post unil I read, "Adding to this is the ultra left wing communist Trade Unions who are taking advantage of the situation". 

Couple of points. Communism more or less died a death after the fall of the Berlin Wall. The only place it actively flourishes, is rent free in the heads of uninformed right-wingers. But just in case I am mistaken, perhaps you can name these ultra left wing communist Trade Unions.

Of course another explanation of what is taking place, is that since 2010, NHS workers have seen their wages cut in real terms by 15%, and offering 4% ish when inflation is over 10% would increase that cut to 20%. Public sector workers, particularly in the NHS have had enough of real term wage cuts, from a gov that is prepared to discuss anything with them, except pay increases.

Mick Lynch leader of the RMT union. Alive and kicking long after the fall of the Berlin Wall. 
 

I don’t have any problem with people striking and in the case of nurses they have a reasonable claim. But they are doing it at the wrong time. 

[Soidog]

1 hour ago, JohninDublin said:

Public sector workers, particularly in the NHS have had enough of real term wage cuts

What do you believe the nurses real term wage cuts have been over the past 10 years? 

[JohninDublin]

12 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Mick Lynch leader of the RMT union. Alive and kicking long after the fall of the Berlin Wall. 
 

I don’t have any problem with people striking and in the case of nurses they have a reasonable claim. But they are doing it at the wrong time. 

Quite apart from the fact that there is no evidence to show that Lynch is a Communist, can you tell me what position he holds within the NHS, which is what you are posting about? And even if he were a Communist, he is one man, and not a TU singular or plural, which was the basis of your claim.

As for this being the "wrong time", will there ever be a right time? It should be pointed out that the RCN, founded in 1916, for the first 79 years of their existence, had a "no strike" policy. This was abandoned in 1995, in response to another paltry pay offer from yet another Tory Gov. It has taken them another 27 years to engage in their first strike. You can only tweak someone's nose so many times before they bite back, and they've suffered 12 years of wage cuts whch has led to today's situation. Factor in that we have a gov that is quite prepared to enter discussions on anything, except pay, and it is difficult to see how they can do anything other strike.

I could fill a few hundred lines on TT, showing you chapter and verse on the incompetence and sleaze this gov has been involved in regarding the NHS, which includes the 20k dead due to symptomatic patients being transferred to care homes unlawfully. About the only people who will not admit the NHS is failing are this gov. Why not? Because it happened on their watch.

I do wish people would do their own due diligence before having flights of fantasy about "reds under the beds".

[JohninDublin]

39 minutes ago, Soidog said:

What do you believe the nurses real term wage cuts have been over the past 10 years? 

https://www.nursinginpractice.com/latest-news/nurses-real-wage-down-20-in-ten-years-despite-raises/

[Soidog]

5 minutes ago, JohninDublin said:

Quite apart from the fact that there is no evidence to show that Lynch is a Communist, can you tell me what position he holds within the NHS, which is what you are posting about? And even if he were a Communist, he is one man, and not a TU singular or plural, which was the basis of your claim.

As for this being the "wrong time", will there ever be a right time? It should be pointed out that the RCN, founded in 1916, for the first 79 years of their existence, had a "no strike" policy. This was abandoned in 1995, in response to another paltry pay offer from yet another Tory Gov. It has taken them another 27 years to engage in their first strike. You can only tweak someone's nose so many times before they bite back, and they've suffered 12 years of wage cuts whch has led to today's situation. Factor in that we have a gov that is quite prepared to enter discussions on anything, except pay, and it is difficult to see how they can do anything other strike.

I could fill a few hundred lines on TT, showing you chapter and verse on the incompetence and sleaze this gov has been involved in regarding the NHS, which includes the 20k dead due to symptomatic patients being transferred to care homes unlawfully. About the only people who will not admit the NHS is failing are this gov. Why not? Because it happened on their watch.

I do wish people would do their own due diligence before having flights of fantasy about "reds under the beds".

I was referring to trades unions in general. Many of them over the years have been left wing, bordering and crossing in to politics straight out of the communist rule book. 
 

We won’t agree on this John as clearly our politics differ. However, answer me this:

If we are to give Nurses a 10% or 15% pay increase; which by the way would fuel the demands for many Public Sector workers. What is it you would like the Government to stop spending money on? Alternatively, by how much would you be happy to see taxes increase to pay for it? 
 

On the timing of this industrial action. There may never be a perfect time for strikes, but my god, the NHS workers couldn’t have picked a worse time. We know of course why this is. Doing it now at the peak of workload is being done to force the issue. They know it will bring the NHS in to further crisis. I just wonder how they feel about the additional life’s this will cost? 

[Soidog]

12 minutes ago, JohninDublin said:

https://www.nursinginpractice.com/latest-news/nurses-real-wage-down-20-in-ten-years-despite-raises/

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/chart-of-the-week-what-has-happened-to-nhs-staff-pay-since-2010
 

More like 6% 

[JohninDublin]

3 hours ago, Soidog said:

I was referring to trades unions in general. Many of them over the years have been left wing, bordering and crossing in to politics straight out of the communist rule book. 
 

We won’t agree on this John as clearly our politics differ. However, answer me this:

If we are to give Nurses a 10% or 15% pay increase; which by the way would fuel the demands for many Public Sector workers. What is it you would like the Government to stop spending money on? Alternatively, by how much would you be happy to see taxes increase to pay for it? 
 

On the timing of this industrial action. There may never be a perfect time for strikes, but my god, the NHS workers couldn’t have picked a worse time. We know of course why this is. Doing it now at the peak of workload is being done to force the issue. They know it will bring the NHS in to further crisis. I just wonder how they feel about the additional life’s this will cost? 

You may NOW be talking about TU's in general, but the OP that gave rise to this thread, was only about the NHS. And when asked to name these CP TU's who were causing all these problems in the NHS, you named a railway union boss, and not any specific TU's. That was really a poor attempt at deflection.

As for your question, I've heard a fairly similar question by Sunak to Starmer following his first PMQ's in regard to his defence of Truss and KamiKwasis tax cuts, and within a couple of weeks, they had nearly all been reversed. Regardless, you are yet indulging in deflection. The issue we are talking about is whether ""Adding to this is the ultra left wing communist Trade Unions who are taking advantage of the situation". Not how to pay for the increases. You've yet to identify a single Communist, let alone Unions plural, who can be described as such. That is the issue. 

But if you want to deviate, It is not just nurses who are lagging behind, but just about the entire public sector.

As for your link to Nuffield Trust, who are a respected org, I note it is not dated. Clearly if it is several months ago when inflation was below 4%, then the figure is no longer reliable. Convesely, I have provided a figure from a nursing org, which may be biased. However "Full Fact", a reputable factchecking org, states 9% up until 2019/20 since 2010. Now factor in 2.5% for 2021 and 11.1% for 2022, most of which has occured in the past 6 months, and I stand by 20%. https://fullfact.org/online/september-2020-nhs-pay/

[Soidog]

45 minutes ago, JohninDublin said:

You may NOW be talking about TU's in general, but the OP that gave rise to this thread, was only about the NHS. And when asked to name these CP TU's who were causing all these problems in the NHS, you named a railway union boss, and not any specific TU's. That was really a poor attempt at deflection.

As for your question, I've heard a fairly similar question by Sunak to Starmer following his first PMQ's in regard to his defence of Truss and KamiKwasis tax cuts, and within a couple of weeks, they had nearly all been reversed. Regardless, you are yet indulging in deflection. The issue we are talking about is whether ""Adding to this is the ultra left wing communist Trade Unions who are taking advantage of the situation". Not how to pay for the increases. You've yet to identify a single Communist, let alone Unions plural, who can be described as such. That is the issue. 

But if you want to deviate, It is not just nurses who are lagging behind, but just about the entire public sector.

As for your link to Nuffield Trust, who are a respected org, I note that that it is not dated. Clearly if it is several months ago when inflation was below 4%, then the figure is no longer reliable. Convesely, I have provided a figure from a nursing org, which may be biased. However "Full Fact", a reputable factchecking org, states 9% up until 2019/20 since 2010. Now factor in 2.5% for 2021 and 11.1% for 2022, most of which has occured in the past 6 months, and I stand by 20%. https://fullfact.org/online/september-2020-nhs-pay/

John. I’m not looking to deflect anything. I’ve said that I consider most, if not all trade unions to be represented by people who at their heart communist leaning individuals. That includes those who lead the NHS union UNISON Christina McAnea. Now, is that clear enough for you?  Below is an extract from her Wikipedia entry:

McAnea is a member of the Labour Party. In the early 1980s,^[1] she was a member of the Communist Party of Great Britain.^[

Could that be any clearer that she is a communist at heart?
 

My follow up point was also not an attempt to deflect anything. Clearly by the answer you have given you are fairly adept at deflecting yourself. As you seem on insisting on nailing my feet to the floor in naming the union, which I have now done and proved beyond doubt that she is a communist, perhaps you’d be good enough to answer my question now. 
 

What services would you like the government to cut back on to find these increases? Or how much extra tax should people pay to find these increases? 
 

The data I supplied shows projections in to 2023 so it is a recent publication. The current inflation is unnatural and won’t last. You can’t give people a 15% inflation matching pay rise, only to find by the summer it’s back to 10%. Will they give money back if it falls? Money, does not grow on trees as you are well aware. Budgets need managed and that’s why my questions need to be answered by someone. That’s how households works. That’s how commercial companies work and that’s how public sector works. 
 

PS. Mick Lynch who’s wife is an NHS nurse and union member is also a former member of the communist party. Enough said I think! 

[JohninDublin]

4 hours ago, Soidog said:

John. I’m not looking to deflect anything. I’ve said that I consider most, if not all trade unions to be represented by people who at their heart communist leaning individuals. That includes those who lead the NHS union UNISON Christina McAnea. Now, is that clear enough for you?  Below is an extract from her Wikipedia entry:

McAnea is a member of the Labour Party. In the early 1980s,^[1] she was a member of the Communist Party of Great Britain.^[

Could that be any clearer that she is a communist at heart?
 

My follow up point was also not an attempt to deflect anything. Clearly by the answer you have given you are fairly adept at deflecting yourself. As you seem on insisting on nailing my feet to the floor in naming the union, which I have now done and proved beyond doubt that she is a communist, perhaps you’d be good enough to answer my question now. 
 

What services would you like the government to cut back on to find these increases? Or how much extra tax should people pay to find these increases? 
 

The data I supplied shows projections in to 2023 so it is a recent publication. The current inflation is unnatural and won’t last. You can’t give people a 15% inflation matching pay rise, only to find by the summer it’s back to 10%. Will they give money back if it falls? Money, does not grow on trees as you are well aware. Budgets need managed and that’s why my questions need to be answered by someone. That’s how households works. That’s how commercial companies work and that’s how public sector works. 
 

PS. Mick Lynch who’s wife is an NHS nurse and union member is also a former member of the communist party. Enough said I think! 

I don't know what I find more grating, your attempts to deflect, or your scraping the bottom  of the barrel to try to justify such shamefully dishonest claims as were made in your OP? Regarding McAnea, did you not see the bit " she was a member of the Communist Party of Great Britain"? My emphasis on "was". She left them in 1984, years before they became a busted flush after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Dennis Healey was also a member, as were many of those on the left in the inter-war years. Most of those saw sense by the time WWII ended. And another name you might want to consider, former Tory Minister, Eric Pickles was also a CP member. People join political parties and when they think they've seen the light, they move on. I have a confession to make. In the 1970 GE, I voted for Quentin Hogg. I am sure that you don't think I am a Tory, but the way you hold previous affiliations against others, surely I must be? As for having proved anything beyond doubt, you clearly don't even understand the meaning of the word was.

As for your your claims of my deflection, will you stop trying to drag me down your rabbit holes? As I stated, this issue was about your false claims about "ultra left wing communist trade unions taking advantage of the situation", and just like Eugene MacCarthy, you are having great difficulties when called up to name names, you fail abysmally. If you want to make a post about how we can or can't afford tp pay this, then do so, and if find it of interest I might vote for it, or reply. But I'm certainly not going to go into a new rabbit hole with you because you need to save face. Whether the country can afford it or not, does not change the untruthfulness of your claim about commie TU. 

You also seem to have a tenuous grasp on economics. The fact 15% may be the current inflation rate, does not mean that prices have fallen 5% if next years rate, is 10%, so they need to give money back. What it means is that you need £115 after one year to retain £100 of purchasing power. What it means is that in the following year, with inflation at 10%, to maintain the original hundred £100 of purchasing power, you now need £126.50. How can you not know that? 

And exactly how recent is "it is a recent publication". The bulk of the inflation is very recent too.

As for your PS, I can find no reference that says she was ever a member of the CP. Source please.

[Soidog]

3 minutes ago, JohninDublin said:

I don't know what I find more grating, your attempts to deflect, or your scraping the bottom  of the barrel to try to justify such shamefully dishonest claims as were made in your OP? Regarding McAnea, did you not see the bit " she was a member of the Communist Party of Great Britain? My emphasis on "was". She left them in 1984, years before they became a busted flush after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Dennis Healey was also a member, as were many of those on the left in the inter-war years. Most of those saw sense by the time WWII ended. And another name you might want to consider, former Tory Minister, Eric Pickles was also a CP member. People join political parties and when they think they've seen the light, they move on. I have a confession to make. In the 1970 GE, I voted for Quentin Hogg. I am sure that you don't think I am a Tory, but on the way you hold previous affiliations against others, surely I must be? As for having proved anything beyond doubt, you clearly don't even understand the meaning of the word was.

As for your your claims of my deflection, will you stop trying to drag me down your rabbit holes? As I stated, this issue was about your false claims about "ultra left wing communist trade unions taking advantage of the situation", and just like Eugene MacCarthy, you are having great difficulties when called up to name names, you fail abysmally. If you want to make a post about how we can or can't afford tp pay this, then do so, and if find it of interest I might vote for it, or reply. But I'm certainly not going to go into a new rabbit hole with you because you need to save face. Whether the country can afford it or not, does not change the untruthfulness of your claim about commie TU. 

You also seem to have a tenuous grasp on economics. The fact 15% may be the current inflation rate, does not mean that prices have fallen 5% if next years rate, is 10%, so they need to give money back. What it means is that you need £115 after one year to retain £100 of purchasing power. What it means is that in the following year, with inflation at 10%, to maintain the original hundred £100 of purchasing power, you now need £126.50. How can you not know that? 

And exactly how recent is "it is a recent publication". The bulk of the inflation is very recent too.

As for your PS, I can find no reference that says she was ever a member of the CP. Source please.

I sense some frustration in your posts, possibly through the embarrassment that I was correct in asserting these union leaders are indeed communists. I also need no lecturers from you in how arithmetic works. I further note you have still failed to answer my questions. Obviously too difficult for you to address. 
 

So let’s leave it there shall we. We are already way off topic and I sense a danger of things overflowing to becoming offensive. 
 

Conversation on this topic is now closed. Thank you for your time.