News Forum - Russia’s FM Sergei Lavrov warns US not to supply Ukraine with arms

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, JamesR said:

I have indeed one of those minds which I use every day designing software, I do take a break now and then to look at noddy subjects like history or the current news etc, I don't need and inquisitive mind for those subjects.

History and the current news as we all know is mostly personal opinion anyway based on ones particular bias.

"....reliable direct informations sources", are subject to the same bias.

Back to your comfort zone of 0’s and 1’s then as nothing else is real enough for you as it’s all “ biased” & “opinion”.
Like Ukrainian invasion perhaps ? 

satellite photos of troop / equipment positions & movements are not “ biased”. nor are field intelligence reports. Documented political & military facts are not “opinions”. Nor are WW2 results.  

[JamesR]

57 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Back to your comfort zone of 0’s and 1’s then as nothing else is real enough for you as it’s all “ biased” & “opinion”.
Like Ukrainian invasion perhaps ? 

satellite photos of troop / equipment positions & movements are not “ biased”. nor are field intelligence reports. Documented political & military facts are not “opinions”. Nor are WW2 results.  

O's and 1's, that is like saying a successful book is made only out of letters and punctuation, no design, code, requirements specs etc,  you really should learn a skill instead of regurgitating information you come across while trawling the web.

Of course the pictures you look at and then claim as you own are not biased, this article is all about whether the Ruskies are deliberately targeting schools etc, that is where the bias will lay, we say they are and they say they are not.

And you are not getting those field intelligence reports, you have the same information to hand as the rest of us unless of course you are over there fighting the war instead of waging war on the rest of us from your village in the middle of nowhere. 

Have you ever seen the film "A Beautiful Mind", do you imagine your are a field intelligence officer, more like a filing clerk I think. 

You mention WW2 results, when did I mentioned WW2? Do you know that WW2 is over and this Ukraine invasion is not part of WW2? 

But you do make me laugh.

 

 

[vlad]

So you don't believe the school was hit by a Russian Bomb JamesR? Even every news report around the World has aired it and shown it to be a School yet your not convinced.

[EdwardV]

4 hours ago, JamesR said:

That is one scenario, there are many.

Like what? 

I'm guessing Russia could eventually declare war (can't do it too soon or the US gets to say "we told you so") which allows them to mobilize and use conscripts outside of Russia. You are talking about six months to train them, less if you want nothing more than cannon fodder. Of course they need weapons, so the vast stores of Russian tanks and AFVs would need engines, optics and whatever else was sold out of them. Better yet they could suddenly learn how to do combined arms warfare and grow a logistics tail. Might allow them to start pushing the Ukrainians back without the need to obliterates towns and cities first. Then there is the whole nuke thing. 

Personally I think the next two weeks are critical for Russia. They rushed their shattered units from the north into Donbas way before they were fully reconstituted. I think that's part of the reason Russian progress has been at a snails pace. If they can't break out and trap part of the Ukrainian army soon, they will once again reach a culmination point. The point at which they lack the strength to advance further. They then run the risk being rolled up at the edges by Ukraine (which has already started to happen). 

In other news: Biden signed the "Ukraine Democracy Defense Lend-Lease Act of 2022" into law today. Will be interesting to see what effect that has on weapons getting to the front???  In addition: 

 

Democrats are moving to quickly pass nearly $40 billion in new Ukraine aid, which will not be linked to a stalled coronavirus package. Democrats are proposing nearly $40 billion in new assistance, above the roughly $33 billion requested by the Biden administration. The extra funding from Congress would include an additional $3.4 billion for both military and humanitarian assistance in addition to the money requested by the White House, two sources confirmed to The Hill. The proposal could be on the House floor as soon as Tuesday, one source told The Hill. Whether it could also pass the Senate by the end of the week depends on if all 100 senators could work out a time agreement and when the House sends over the legislation. 

In shift, Democrats de-link Ukraine aid from COVID-19 money | The Hill

I'm guessing Pelosi figured $33B wasn't enough. Clearly her trip to Kyiv paid off for Ukraine. Keeping in mind this money only get them through September. Can't wait to see what new toys the US will be sending to Ukraine. 

 

 

[JamesR]

47 minutes ago, vlad said:

So you don't believe the school was hit by a Russian Bomb JamesR? Even every news report around the World has aired it and shown it to be a School yet your not convinced.

Of course the schools etc are being hit, who in their right mind would deny that?

This article is about whether schools or public schools are being deliberately targeted, the Western news says yes and the Russians say no, it is what I would expect.

There will be a bias of opinion and a bias of the 'facts' on both sides. 

[Fanta]

1 hour ago, EdwardV said:

I'm guessing Russia could eventually declare war (can't do it too soon or the US gets to say "we told you so") which allows them to mobilize and use conscripts outside of Russia

Before Putin’s speech many, including some on this forum,  believed that on Victory Day Putin would declare war or announce mobilization. Neither happened. He stuck to his script - nasty Nazis, naughty NATO, ugly Ukraine, unscrupulous US and some other bollocks. I think people are over inflating the damage incurred by and the risk factor posed to Russia by Ukraine. “Russia must declare war to enter a war time economy, mobilization needed because of massive casualties, they’re running out of PGMs, sanctions are killing them, the oligarchs are outraged, the citizens are rebelling in the streets, Putin will be deposed by his own team if his Parkinson’s, cancer or herpes doesn’t kill him first, the wonder weapons will save the day, the war has stalled… “   seriously?
Get a grip, team! 

[EdwardV]

40 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Before Putin’s speech many, including some on this forum,  believed that on Victory Day Putin would declare war or announce mobilization.

Of course he can't, the US beat him to the punch (again). Forced Russia to declare to the world there was no truth to the US reading Kremlin emails and thoughts. No way Putin would go out a day or two later and basically say "yes the US was right". That said, I hope you are right. Best thing for Ukraine is Russia not increasing it's troop levels. 

40 minutes ago, Fanta said:

the war has stalled… “   seriously?

Well it certainly isn't moving very fast, and in many places isn't moving at all. What term would you use? 

[Fanta]

31 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Of course he can't, the US beat him to the punch (again). Forced Russia to declare to the world there was no truth to the US reading Kremlin emails and thoughts. No way Putin would go out a day or two later and basically say "yes the US was right". That said, I hope you are right. Best thing for Ukraine is Russia not increasing it's troop levels. 

Well it certainly isn't moving very fast, and in many places isn't moving at all. What term would you use? 

So now Pootin actually gives a toss about what the Western media says? Necessity dictates war time actions not perceptions. The US would be handing out promises of green cards, new identities and money secretly sent to offshore accounts to anyone in Russia that can tell them what Putin’s favorite breakfast treat. Claiming that the US isn’t all over Russian communications is as believable as  NATO saying that their spy planes are not actively supplying intel to Ukraine. Russia will keep moving more troops into Ukraine as and when they are needed. Progress is clearly not going forward as quickly as Russia would like or, it seems, as the West expected. We do need to consider that the Donbas region has been at war for 8 years already. Throw in the claims that the Russian army is total crap and it’s amazing the Russkies haven’t deserted en masse. The Ukrainian defensive positions have been in position since well before the invasion. This is not a rolling battle being fought in the wheat fields with the occasional picnic in the forests. It is an artillery attack against well supplied, dug in and reinforced defenders. This could be make it or break it time for Ukraine and only slightly less than that for Russia. A time lapse map of the invasion would be so handy. 

[Smithydog]

12 hours ago, JamesR said:

No soldiers hiding in those towns?

I seemed to remember at the start of conflict there was a lot of publicity stating hundreds of thousands of civilians were going to be armed, they were also making boxes of petrol bombs etc and said they will fight to the death etc, so many of them were not completely civilians then.

I am not saying soldiers weren't there in any manner be it open or in hiding. 

The key factor is that the indiscriminate nature of the bombing has led to civilian deaths and massive property damage. There is no indication anything was done to secure the safety of children in their bombing attacks nor pause in their consideration that a school might have children in it. They seemed to just drop them where ever they wanted to at a speed that suggests to hell with such considerations!

The evolution of smart bomb technology is not new, allowing targeting of specific areas and minimising non military damage. Yes it can and does still occur, and we have seen isolated incidences by a variety of countries in other battles. 

This does not make it right, nor would I suggest those isolated instances are any less tragic. But none approach anywhere near the resultant effects we have seen in such a short period of time in Ukraine and other conflicts conducted by Russia.

[Fanta]

2 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

There is no indication anything was done to secure the safety of children in their bombing attacks nor pause in their consideration that a school might have children in it

Whose responsibility is it to evacuate civilians in the path of war?

Rule 24. Each party to the conflict must, to the extent feasible, remove civilian persons and objects under its control from the vicinity of military objectives.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule24 

Ukraine leaves the civilians and howls war crimes, in English of course, when the bombs fall. Russia moves the civilians from captured territory and this is labelled a forcible move or worse. Ukraine clearly cannot clear the country of civilians the same as Russia clearly cannot have pin point accuracy with every bomb dropped or missile slung. I choose to believe the school bombing was an accident, others choose to believe it was TARGETED. Which do you believe? 

[JamesR]

10 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

I am not saying soldiers weren't there in any manner be it open or in hiding. 

The key factor is that the indiscriminate nature of the bombing has led to civilian deaths and massive property damage. There is no indication anything was done to secure the safety of children in their bombing attacks nor pause in their consideration that a school might have children in it. They seemed to just drop them where ever they wanted to at a speed that suggests to hell with such considerations!

The evolution of smart bomb technology is not new, allowing targeting of specific areas and minimising non military damage. Yes it can and does still occur, and we have seen isolated incidences by a variety of countries in other battles. 

This does not make it right, nor would I suggest those isolated instances are any less tragic. But none approach anywhere near the resultant effects we have seen in such a short period of time in Ukraine and other conflicts conducted by Russia.

All based on what we have been told by our Western press, who has said it was indiscriminate bombing but then they would.

We have opinions, we can see what has happened after each bomb have gone off, we can not know the intent or why a particular bomb went off.

I know the Ukrainians do not have separate castles or fortresses to fight from so they must be in houses etc as well as civilians. 

We speculate, even after the war is over the real facts will never come out.

The Rusks should be kicked out and I want them to lose but I do know there is always bias in all news reports. 

[Smithydog]

13 hours ago, Fanta said:

The Russians and their lawyers will say different. And it all doesn’t mean Jack squat in an international court when the accused doesn’t even show up. That is how it is and it is what it is. The poster of the “targeted and attacked” statement must be chuffed to have his war crimes lament back in the top 10 again to derail the discussion. 

Seems they have had a lot of misses of military buildings with their vaunted technology and "targeting" since you feel they will argue is not indiscriminate. Or is it that perhaps Ukraine has an extraordinary ratio of military to residential buildings? 

After all, we are not talking about a country with inferior technology. This is the same Russia that has launched 67 successful missions to the ISS, pinpointing and targeting a dot in space, that you seem to indicate in general can't hit military installations. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soyuz_missions

I don't and never have expected Putin to be tried in an international court. The way the Russian system seems to work is that internal means will be used to dispose of him, probably highlighting his corruption. 

[Smithydog]

14 minutes ago, JamesR said:

All based on what we have been told by our Western press, who has said it was indiscriminate bombing but then they would.

We have opinions, we can see what has happened after each bomb have gone off, we can not know the intent or why a particular bomb went off.

I know the Ukrainians do not have separate castles or fortresses to fight from so they must be in houses etc as well as civilians. 

We speculate, even after the war is over the real facts will never come out.

The Rusks should be kicked out and I want them to lose but I do know there is always bias in all news reports. 

By your remarks you clearly indicate you think that bias cannot deliver any factual information. 

If so, then obviously you don't watch, read or listen to any media to be informed as your internal cognitive bias would seem to prevent you believing any media source whatsoever. How are we then to take any of your comments as being supportive of anything or believe they are untainted by your own cognitive bias?

Bias is a two-way street. It would seem your internal cognitive bias is hiding the reality from you . 

[Grumpish]

19 minutes ago, Fanta said:

 

 

 Which do you believe? 

Neither Both.

[Fanta]

7 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

Seems they have had a lot of misses of military buildings with their vaunted technology and "targeting" since you feel they will argue is not indiscriminate. Or is it that perhaps Ukraine has an extraordinary ratio of military to residential buildings? 

After all, we are not talking about a country with inferior technology. This is the same Russia that has launched 67 successful missions to the ISS, pinpointing and targeting a dot in space, that you seem to indicate in general can't hit military installations. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soyuz_missions

I don't and never have expected Putin to be tried in an international court. The way the Russian system seems to work is that internal means will be used to dispose of him, probably highlighting his corruption. 

If you choose to believe the Russians are 100% accurate with all their attacks then your outrage is warranted. Are you trying to drag me into defending Russia’s invasion and subsequent bombing of Ukraine?  Good luck with that one. 

[Fanta]

Odessa has been hit by a fair few missiles over the last few days. The Black Sea Fleet battle ships have been supplied with Kalibr missiles but apparently they are crap so we can expect a lot more non military buildings to be hit.

https://liveuamap.com 

“Performance in recent wars has been "dismal"; of 26 Kalibrs fired at targets in Syria, 4 landed in Iran, which is a different country. Russian forces are increasingly resorting to dumb bombs instead.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M-54_Kalibr

[Smithydog]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

Whose responsibility is it to evacuate civilians in the path of war?

Rule 24. Each party to the conflict must, to the extent feasible, remove civilian persons and objects under its control from the vicinity of military objectives.

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule24 

Ukraine leaves the civilians and howls war crimes, in English of course, when the bombs fall. Russia moves the civilians from captured territory and this is labelled a forcible move or worse. Ukraine clearly cannot clear the country of civilians the same as Russia clearly cannot have pin point accuracy with every bomb dropped or missile slung. I choose to believe the school bombing was an accident, others choose to believe it was TARGETED. Which do you believe? 

I believe that it doesn't matter and those killed would be alive today if Russia had not chosen to invade. Simple. Whether it be Russian weapons or those supplied by the US or other countries, they are all killing.

So if it was a mistake to bomb and kill, will the Russians bring their personnel who made the "mistake" to justice, or honour them like the returnees from Bucha were?

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/putin-honours-brigade-accused-of-bucha-killings/articleshow/90924772.cms

Pretty clear if no conflict, then no need to try and do what they did. But even then they tried and we can see the way Russia chose to treat those humanitarian corridors that were established after long refusals and delays by the Russians.

https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/2022/03/08/ukraine-sceptical-of-russias-plan-to-open-safe-corridors-on-tuesday/

The world has seen these Russian narratives in the past. Through Chechen, Georgia, and the Crimea. Seeing the same tactics each time makes the investigative side less challenging as we have heard all the Russian falsehoods before.

Science has moved on and can identify things much better now and with far more accuracy than ever before. Putin recognises this by banning all opposition commentary about the war. He knows he can no longer hide the truth from the Russian people, only restrict its viewing to a state message.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/07/russia-criminalizes-independent-war-reporting-anti-war-protests

The simple reality is that if the Russian cause is so strong, if they are doing the right things in relocations etc, why are they so scared of the truth being seen in their actions by allowing foreign and independent media to report on it?

After all they could video the entire event uncut as contrary evidence if they chose.  Videos can be assessed as to accuracy. That is the extent of science nowadays. The reality is that Putin is scared at the ramifications from his own people if they were shown the truth.

He treat his own people with such disdain that he believes they can't, as reasonable people, determine the truth or otherwise of what they see, based on their own morals and ethics. That tells the story in itself. The Foreign Minister's statement reveals much about the Russian mindset far more than any other media reporting.

[Smithydog]

33 minutes ago, Fanta said:

If you choose to believe the Russians are 100% accurate with all their attacks then your outrage is warranted. Are you trying to drag me into defending Russia’s invasion and subsequent bombing of Ukraine?  Good luck with that one. 

I am not trying to drag anyone, including yourself, into defending a position no matter how erroneous their position may seem to others.

[Fanta]

20 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

I am not trying to drag anyone, including yourself, into defending a position no matter how erroneous their position may seem to others.

So you are just venting?  
You never answered the question I asked you about the initial statement that triggered this ”bombing babies” discussion. Was the school targeted?

[EdwardV]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

So now Pootin actually gives a toss about what the Western media says? Necessity dictates war time actions not perceptions

I guess I was right originally. It’s not because Russia doesn’t want to mobilize right now. It’s because they can’t: 

A video has emerged purportedly showing retired Russian Col. Mikhail Khodaryonok admitting on state television that his country needs to "replenish the losses in terms of personnel, weapons and equipment" that it has suffered in the war in Ukraine. Khodaryonok purportedly made the comments Friday while also questioning whether mobilizing more troops would help Russia in the war, which has now stretched on for 75 days. The clip begins with Khodaryonok saying "let's imagine the drumroll, the sound of fanfare, and the mobilization is declared. "How soon under this mobilization will we get the first fighter aviation regiment? We would get it by New Year's," he said. "If tonight we order new ships to be built, how soon will we get the first one? In two years," he continued. "That's the deal with mobilization," Khodaryonok argued. "If we set a goal of forming a new tank division, when would it be ready? I would say in at least 90 days."And it wouldn't be equipped with modern weaponry because we don't have modern weapons and equipment in our reserves," he added. Khodaryonok, speaking to a panel, also said "sending people armed with weapons of yesteryear into a war of the 21st century to fight against global standard NATO weapons would not be the right thing to do. 

https://www.foxnews.com/world/retired-russian-colonel-admits-putins-army-troop-losses-ukraine.amp

 

 

[Fanta]

8 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

It’s not because Russia doesn’t want to mobilize right now. It’s because they can’t: 

Follow that thought through and you end up with Zelenskyy’s wet dream - a Russia that cannot replenish it’s forces and therefore  will eventually be destroyed on the battlefield or forced into retreat back to. Russia. The guy said “Imagine..” and MSM turns this into an admission of not only does Russia desperately need replacements but that it cannot even produce these replacements so why even bother mobilizing. Really? 

The war is 75 days old. My visa lasts longer. 

[EdwardV]

3 minutes ago, Fanta said:

The guy said “Imagine..”

In order to explain his point, he has to set an imaginary timeline. You can’t do it otherwise. 

 

6 minutes ago, Fanta said:

a Russia that cannot replenish it’s forces

He didn’t say that or even imply it. His point was mobilization which is different. Replenish is to replace losses within an existing unit. Mobilize is to creat new units. One has been taking place since the start of the war, the other not so much. 

 

9 minutes ago, Fanta said:

so why even bother mobilizing. Really? 

I thought that was your point? 

[Vigo]

17 hours ago, Poolie said:

US rebuild anywhere? You're having a laugh. Half of America itself is tatty and old.

Your bias is showing again.  The USA rebuilt Japan. It also rebuilt South Korea. When the Soviet Union dissolved and Eastern European countries were freed from Russian domination, the USA was one of the largest donors to the rebuilding and rejuvenation of civil society. There could not have been prosperity  without the institutions of democratic government and an independent judiciary. The USA worked closely with the EU.

in respect to the current conflict, the  USA has contributed in excess of  US $11 billion to the Ukraine. After the past weekend visit of the Canadian PM and his announcement of  another  $250 million of funding, Canada has now become the second largest foreign donor to the Ukraine. The UK, France and  Germany are just a touch less. It can be expected that these 5 countries will lead the rebuilding effort when that time arrives.

[Smithydog]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

So you are just venting?  
You never answered the question I asked you about the initial statement that triggered this ”bombing babies” discussion. Was the school targeted?

No I am stating my own opinion supported with links as needed for others to review, make their own choices, and state their own opinions. (Something I note that would not be allowed in Russia.) And by the way, I did answer your question. I said "I believe that it doesn't matter and those killed would be alive today if Russia had not chosen to invade."

But to clarify for you. I do not support the Russian invasion. I believe it is following the pattern Russia has used in past exchanges. I believe their own actions show the truth, rather than statements and falsehoods they believe the world will listen to. And yes I believe Russia has committed war crimes in its invasion. I also believe the bombing is indiscriminate as it follows previous patterns for Russian troops.

I also believe the Ukrainian government and the separatists have both not helped avoid the issue by reaching solutions following Minsk II. But to go to an invasion was totally unwarranted and only desired by the Separatists and Putin following what happened in the Crimea in 2014. The rest is all Russian spin.

 

[Fanta]

18 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

And by the way, I did answer your question. I said "I believe that it doesn't matter and those killed would be alive today if Russia had not chosen to invade."

And water is wet. For the third time. no-one denies a Russian bomb hit a school. At issue is the statement that it was a targeted strike. Don’t make me use upper case or things could get ugly  
Russia bad, Ukraine not so bad, USA hmmm…. 
ps: I also share your sentiments towards this war.