News Forum - UKRAINE UPDATES: Russia relents, Ukraine offers concessions at Turkey peace talks; Amnesty decries Russian war crimes

[Stardust]

10 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

despite the near victory of some local commentators over Putin, he continues to snap back.

The Russian Defense Ministry announced the start of the main phase of the operation - the liberation of Donbass.

This means that in the near future we will see fierce battles for the cities, with heavy casualties on both sides and, unfortunately, civilians.

Witch troops are left, the 2000 from Georgia. So more dead russian soldiers you mean

 

 

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, EdwardV said:

That's called a false equivalency. You are trying to justify Russia's evil deed by comparing it to something someone else did. Sorry Putin doesn't get a free pass to destroy hospitals, apartment buildings, schools, bomb shelters and murder Ukrainian citizens. 

I think he's just highlighting the fact that both America and the UK have both done the same in the past. 

Double standards?

Both were wrong in my opinion however there's calls for Putin to be done for war crimes and rightly so but Bush and Blair walk away scot free after their lies for invading Iraq?

All world leaders have been shit in the last twenty years for me

[JohnC]

10 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

That's called a false equivalency. You are trying to justify Russia's evil deed by comparing it to something someone else did. Sorry Putin doesn't get a free pass to destroy hospitals, apartment buildings, schools, bomb shelters and murder Ukrainian citizens. 

BTW both yours and KRLMRX posts have been good to read for me. 

Both informative and not lowering yourselves to insults unlike the rest of the angry dads army brigade on here

[EdwardV]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

Both were wrong in my opinion however there's calls for Putin to be done for war crimes and rightly so but Bush and Blair walk away scot free after their lies for invading Iraq?

Putin wouldn't be put on trial for invading Ukraine, strangely that's not a war crime. It would be for his troops deliberately targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure. One bombed hospital is an accident, a second is might be an accident, but some 40 plus is a pattern. Plus of course the apartment buildings, residential neighborhoods, bomb shelters, random people being mowed down, shelling evacuation corridors, you know stuff like that. If he was speaking out against these cases, holds those under him accountable, he probably skates. Not doing so means ... well you get the picture.  

[Noble_Design]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

BTW both yours and KRLMRX posts have been good to read for me. 

Both informative and not lowering yourselves to insults unlike the rest of the angry dads army brigade on here

True. Both make their points with much civility and none of those "it shows you know nothing about Europe/military/etc." remarks

[KRLMRX]

19 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

That's called a false equivalency. You are trying to justify Russia's evil deed by comparing it to something someone else did. Sorry Putin doesn't get a free pass to destroy hospitals, apartment buildings, schools, bomb shelters and murder Ukrainian citizens. 

I replied to this: "We are not talking of a 50 - 50 blame game here, most people would agree that the Russians are way in the lead on that score here."

I call it the "everyone knows about" false intro.

I'm hallucinating and here we are talking about Putin?

[JohnC]

7 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Putin wouldn't be put on trial for invading Ukraine, strangely that's not a war crime. It would be for his troops deliberately targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure. One bombed hospital is an accident, a second is might be an accident, but some 40 plus is a pattern. Plus of course the apartment buildings, residential neighborhoods, bomb shelters, random people being mowed down, shelling evacuation corridors, you know stuff like that. If he was speaking out against these cases, holds those under him accountable, he probably skates. Not doing so means ... well you get the picture.  

Good point well explained 

I will hold my hands up to superior knowledge 

[KRLMRX]

24 minutes ago, Stardust said:

Witch troops are left, the 2000 from Georgia. So more dead russian soldiers you mean

As of 18 May 2020, there have been 3,502 coalition deaths in Afghanistan

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_casualties_in_Afghanistan

I should be happy about this, like you? but no, I'm sad.

 

[KRLMRX]

14 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Putin wouldn't be put on trial for invading Ukraine, strangely that's not a war crime. It would be for his troops deliberately targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure. One bombed hospital is an accident, a second is might be an accident, but some 40 plus is a pattern. Plus of course the apartment buildings, residential neighborhoods, bomb shelters, random people being mowed down, shelling evacuation corridors, you know stuff like that. If he was speaking out against these cases, holds those under him accountable, he probably skates. Not doing so means ... well you get the picture.  

why does the destruction of civilian infrastructure occur only in those cities where there is a military confrontation?

no destruction in Russian-controlled cities like Kherson, Melitopol.

[Stardust]

14 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

As of 18 May 2020, there have been 3,502 coalition deaths in Afghanistan

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_casualties_in_Afghanistan

I should be happy about this, like you? but no, I'm sad.

You support the invasion from Putin, not me! That means you want more dead russian soldiers and mire dead civilians. The solution is very simple!

No invasion from Russia on a souvereign country, no dead people!

You want no more dead russian soldiers?! Then get out of Ukraine!!!

[EdwardV]

9 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

why does the destruction of civilian infrastructure occur only in those cities where there is a military confrontation?

no destruction in Russian-controlled cities like Kherson, Melitopol.

Because in most cases, civilian infrastructure is built to standards where it doesn't fall down on it's own. 

I would assume because Russia tries to avoid bombing it's own troops and locations? 

[KRLMRX]

15 minutes ago, Stardust said:

You support the invasion from Putin, not me! That means you want more dead russian soldiers and mire dead civilians. The solution is very simple!

No invasion from Russia on a souvereign country, no dead people!

You want no more dead russian soldiers?! Then get out of Ukraine!!!

You are mistaken, I have already said many times that I do not support.

but also I do not support the past criminal incursions of "free democracies".

In this case, I just shared the news and my vision of the development of events.

[Stardust]

2 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

You are mistaken, I have already said many times that I do not support.

but also I do not support the past criminal incursions of "free democracies".

In this case, I just shared the news and my vision of the development of events.

This is what you support there is no doubt about it.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-60839787

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60949791

And is very clear on all your posts that you are supporting Putin, the invasion and his warcrimes

[KRLMRX]

20 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Because in most cases, civilian infrastructure is built to standards where it doesn't fall down on it's own. 

I would assume because Russia tries to avoid bombing it's own troops and locations? 

as you said, the Russian army purposefully destroys civilian infrastructure and civilians. in that case, why doesn't she do it in Kherson and Melitopol?

maybe it has something to do with the use of civilian infrastructure by the military on both sides as a shelter?

to paraphrase Stardust: don't place weapons in the hospital and it won't be destroyed.

[KRLMRX]

20 minutes ago, Stardust said:

This is what you support there is no doubt about it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-60839787

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60949791

And is very clear on all your posts that you are supporting Putin, the invasion and his warcrimes

I do not deny the possible veracity of this story, but there is no confirmation on the video, only a fuzzy drone video and the commentator's text.  

I think you can easily find similar videos from all the latest wars.

[Stardust]

9 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

I do not deny the possible veracity of this story, but there is no confirmation on the video, only a fuzzy drone video and the commentator's text.  

I think you can easily find similar videos from all the latest wars.

People inside of the Ukraine witness all there is no doubt and there is no doubt who is responsible for all of that. 

[butterfly]

how soon we forget how brutal the Iraq invasion by the US was, with US soldiers deliberating shooting at Al Jazeera and CNN journalists in their hotel rooms, bombing children hospitals by "accident", bombing residential areas as a "shock and awe" strategy to intimidate Saddam. Right, like he cared for his own population

This war is no different, and equally ugly, yet somehow "some" here choose to forget what war really means, and yes it's really ugly. The winners will always mention a necessary evil, and this one will not be different.

Zelensky needs to be the adult in the room, and stop the bloodshed

I have hope he might come to his senses eventually, and surrender to Putin to stop the massacre

Like another great leader, Vercingetorix, did with the brutal Romans 

Zelenskly wants to be a hero? let him be a real one, not a Zoom proxy one

Edited April 1, 2022 by butterfly

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, KRLMRX said:

as you said, the Russian army purposefully destroys civilian infrastructure and civilians. in that case, why doesn't she do it in Kherson and Melitopol?

I don't understand why this is hard to understand. It's because the Russian's don't want to drop bombs on their own troops. Both Kherson and Melitopol were taken in the first day of the war, they have been occupied by the Russian army every since. 

Are you asking why they didn't grind the city into dust in a single day? 

[EdwardV]

36 minutes ago, butterfly said:

Zelensky needs to be the adult in the room, and stop the bloodshed

Yeah because it certainly wouldn't be Putin. That is if you could get Putin out of his bunker long enough to meet Zelenskyy. 

[Marble-eye]

7 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

most people who can read will surely say that the US is the invasion champion.

https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/these-are-the-only-3-countries-america-hasnt-invaded/

See what you did there Karl, you are a master of deflection.

"most people who can read" when the argument is lost why do so many people resort to insults?

[Fanta]

8 hours ago, Alavan said:

Oeps, only number 12 for China, or even number 14 with Malaysia bigger
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_China

https://www.worldstopexports.com/chinas-top-import-partners/
 

You have this backwards. I said China is #1 trading partner for Russia, not Russia is #1 for China

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_Russia

 

[EdwardV]

You know I don't really feel much sympathy for the Russians as they have brought this upon themselves. However you almost do for these guys: 

As Moscow's forces bog down in Ukraine, many young Russians of draft age are increasingly jittery about the prospect of being sent into combat. Making those fears particularly acute is an annual spring conscription that began Friday and aims to round up 134,500 men for a one-year tour of military duty. Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu pledged at a meeting of the military brass this week that the new recruits won't be sent to front lines or “hot spots.” But the statement was met with skepticism by many in Russia who remember the separatist wars in the southern republic of Chechnya in the 1990s and early 2000s, when thousands of poorly trained young men were killed. “I don't trust them when they say they won't send conscripts into combat. They lie all the time,” ... In recent years, the Kremlin has emphasized increasing the share of volunteer contract soldiers as it sought to modernize the army and improve its readiness. The force of 1 million now has over 400,000 contract soldiers, including 147,000 in the infantry. If the war drags on, those numbers could be insufficient to sustain the operations.

War in Ukraine fuels fears among draft-age Russian youths (msn.com)

Besides the shock at seeing how few of the volunteer contract soldiers are actually in the infantry (wow!), means draftees are no doubt going to be thrown against battle hardened Ukrainians with the same bad results. Keeping in mind, Moscow extended the service time for last years draftees so they aren't going home anytime soon (unless ...). Sucks but of course is fully understandable. 

 

 

[Fanta]

26 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

You know I don't really feel much sympathy for the Russians as they have brought this upon themselves. However you almost do for these guys: 

As Moscow's forces bog down in Ukraine, many young Russians of draft age are increasingly jittery about the prospect of being sent into combat. Making those fears particularly acute is an annual spring conscription that began Friday and aims to round up 134,500 men for a one-year tour of military duty. Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu pledged at a meeting of the military brass this week that the new recruits won't be sent to front lines or “hot spots.” But the statement was met with skepticism by many in Russia who remember the separatist wars in the southern republic of Chechnya in the 1990s and early 2000s, when thousands of poorly trained young men were killed. “I don't trust them when they say they won't send conscripts into combat. They lie all the time,” ... In recent years, the Kremlin has emphasized increasing the share of volunteer contract soldiers as it sought to modernize the army and improve its readiness. The force of 1 million now has over 400,000 contract soldiers, including 147,000 in the infantry. If the war drags on, those numbers could be insufficient to sustain the operations.

War in Ukraine fuels fears among draft-age Russian youths (msn.com)

Besides the shock at seeing how few of the volunteer contract soldiers are actually in the infantry (wow!), means draftees are no doubt going to be thrown against battle hardened Ukrainians with the same bad results. Keeping in mind, Moscow extended the service time for last years draftees so they aren't going home anytime soon (unless ...). Sucks but of course is fully understandable. 

Only if you think the war will last for at least 2 more months and that the Russian Infantry is so depleted that they’ll throw poorly trained troops into the front line. This is not “Enemy at the Gates” 1 rifle for 1 man and 1 clip of ammo for the next man times for Russia despite Western media attempts to portray it as such. Hopefully the peace talks will soon satisfy all parties and this all ends.

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

Only if you think the war will last for at least 2 more months and that the Russian Infantry is so depleted that they’ll throw poorly trained troops into the front line.

There is no reason to think otherwise at this point in time. The peace negotiations have made basically no progress and seeing how the sides have staked their positions it’s doubtful they ever will. My opinion, and I do hope I’m wrong, is this is basically a fight to the death. One side or the other will sue for peace because they are beaten. Putin needs to take all of Ukraine to not only save face but to set up his attack on NATO. Ukraine can’t quit because this is their baptism of fire, to come out on the other side finally free of Russia and a true independent country. Anything else will just lead to round two in a few years.
 

As to the recruits, yes they need two months. That is if they are throw directly into Ukraine. I think it’s more likely they will finish basic and replace conscripts from other parts of the country. Conscripts who would then head to Ukraine. Kids who would otherwise already be home. Not that I think those will be all that better prepared for what awaits them. 
 

 

[Fanta]

The thing that can protect Ukraine from further Russian military aggression is Zelenskyy’s stated goal of Russia agreeing to allow foreign troops into Ukraine for “military exercises”. If he gets that then an attack on Ukraine risks being viewed as an attack on foreign (NATO) troops with consequences. I simply don’t believe the “poorly trained, equipped, supplied, demoralized, barely old enough to shave etc” portrayal of Russian troops. If they are as bad as claimed then they are doing a pretty good job against the >insert superlatives here> soldiers of Ukraine.