News Forum - UKRAINE UPDATES: Russia relents, Ukraine offers concessions at Turkey peace talks; Amnesty decries Russian war crimes

[Convert54]

9 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Pompous Gibberish…..not one word of sense. Translation Software malfunction perhaps ? Must try harder if you wish to assign false equivalence to “both sides”. 

Pompous attempt to dismiss fact in relevance to war crimes by "both sides" ?

[Fanta]

8 hours ago, EdwardV said:

Yes of course it was rhetorical, but I will respond in kind of why Putin should sue for peace:  The risk/damage is not worth the reward. His army has reached it's culmination point, they lack the resources and/or will to advance further. They are being slowly ground into a bloody, wreck strewn mess. His economy is being destroyed from the worse sanctions in world history (with more to follow), and if it lasts any longer it will take 20-30 years minimum to recover. With Russia's terminal demographics, that's pretty much a death sentence. Russia can't archive their stated objective of conquering Ukraine and absorbing them into Russia proper with their current force levels. It's now outside their reach. There is no need to bleed out the Russian army to a level it can't recover. For what? To own Ukraine? That was never the real objective, so it's better to cut losses now. 

That said, I don't think Putin will or can withdraw or sue for peace. To do so would result in him slipping in the shower and falling on some bullets. Honestly I think he ups the ante. He will order a mobilization of the Russian army reserves and attempt to grind Ukraine into dust. Of course throwing raw recruits into a war they don't want to fight with an increasing level of obsolete weapons will vastly increase Russian casualties (but that's never really bothered Russia). How he sells that to the Russian population probably isn't as hard as it would be somewhere else but it still won't be easy. Never the less, it might be enough to win a general war. A full blown raging insurgency is a different matter, but then Russia knows how to do that too. That of course will have bled out the Russian army so completely they will never again be a threat to NATO. Sucks if you are Ukraine, but they have no intention of letting it happen and they might just win. Just my opinion. 

it would be political suicide and an unthinkable “loss of face” on the world stage for Putin to retreat so that’s not going to happen any time soon. So should Ukraine sue for a negotiated peace because, using your own arguments, Russia will not? Or Ukraine should risk losing everything? 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

it would be political suicide and an unthinkable “loss of face” on the world stage for Putin to retreat so that’s not going to happen any time soon. So should Ukraine sue for a negotiated peace because, using your own arguments, Russia will not? Or Ukraine should risk losing everything? 

The Ukraine needs to keep going until Czar Putin is removed.

[Fanta]

4 minutes ago, Transam said:

Strange that you can't see the wood from the trees in this situation...

Appalling that you cannot see that a negotiated peace can save lives and that both sides can come out of this a “winner”.

[Marble-eye]

1 minute ago, Fanta said:

Appalling that you cannot see that a negotiated peace can save lives and that both sides can come out of this a “winner”.

Do you actual believe this Russian propaganda you write, there will be no winners, let's just hope that Russia will be the biggest loser by a long chalk.

If Russia stops fighting there will be peace, if the Ukraine stops fighting they lose their country. 

[EdwardV]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

So should Ukraine sue for a negotiated peace because, using your own arguments, Russia will not? Or Ukraine should risk losing everything? 

Ukraine should not sue for peace. It appear they can hold off Russia, bleed them out at the very least.If they sue for peace they will just be invaded again and there is no guarantee they will be in a better position a second time. 

[Fanta]

4 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Do you actual believe this Russian propaganda you write, there will be no winners, let's just hope that Russia will be the biggest loser by a long chalk.

If Russia stops fighting there will be peace, if the Ukraine stops fighting they lose their country. 

I want peace, many want blood. Do you believe all the Western press you read or only the war coverage? You can wish, hope and pray all you want but reality won’t listen. “If Russia stops fighting” we should all be on the lookout for flying pigs and unicorns airlifting supplies to the Ukrainian front line troops. And you choose to ignore exactly what Zelenskyy and many Western politicians are trying to achieve - a negotiated peace - because you mistakenly believe that equals a surrender. Pop quiz - what happens after the civilians at Mariupol are evacuated? Will the Russian air force and navy will turn that city into rubble from afar? Or did you forget about the Russian Air Force and Navy? 

[EdwardV]

18 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Appalling that you cannot see that a negotiated peace can save lives and that both sides can come out of this a “winner”.

How does Ukraine come out a winner? Besides the fact there is no reason to believe Russia is negotiating seriously. The only way Russia agrees to a peace deal is if Ukraine gives up sovereignty and territory. Russia wants nothing less than a vassal state, or more like a province of Russia. 

[Fanta]

32 minutes ago, Transam said:

 

Your stance is surrender, once again you forget 1939. What happened AFTER the assault on Poland, do you remember, no, then I will tell you, Mr.Hitler stood on the shores of France wondering how to cross that moat...

This time round, NATO has saved the day and Putin has learned a tough lesson, but even if Ukraine fails in its freedom bid, the Russians will step back and think again about bullying with the threat of the big bang.

I don't think things will be the same for Russians after this fiasco on the world stage, I feel sorry for them, having a leader stuck in the last century....

 

You equate a negotiated peace with a surrender. They are not the same as I have explained already. And your memories of WWII don’t seem to include the declaration of war by Britain, France etc against the Germans. As I said before, only 2 countries are in the ring. NATO may be in Ukraine’s corner and China behind Russia but no-one else is getting in the ring. Accept that simple fact and your desire for a deathmatch seems…. less than proper. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Fanta
Edited quote as per request

[Rookiescot]

10 minutes ago, Fanta said:

I want peace, many want blood. Do you believe all the Western press you read or only the war coverage? You can wish, hope and pray all you want but reality won’t listen. “If Russia stops fighting” we should all be on the lookout for flying pigs and unicorns airlifting supplies to the Ukrainian front line troops. And you choose to ignore exactly what Zelenskyy and many Western politicians are trying to achieve - a negotiated peace - because you mistakenly believe that equals a surrender. Pop quiz - what happens after the civilians at Mariupol are evacuated? Will the Russian air force and navy will turn that city into rubble from afar? Or did you forget about the Russian Air Force and Navy? 

The problem is nobody believes Czar Putin.

How can you negotiate with a compulsive liar?

[Rookiescot]

5 minutes ago, Fanta said:

You equate a negotiated peace with a surrender. They are not the same as I have explained already. And your memories of WWII don’t seem to include the declaration of war by Britain, France etc against the Germans. As I said before, only 2 countries are in the ring. NATO may be in Ukraine’s corner and China behind Russia but no-one else is getting in the ring. Accept that simple fact and your desire for a deathmatch seems…. less than proper. 

NATO is in the Ukraines corner providing weapons and intelligence.

China is not in Russias corner.

[Fanta]

4 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

How does Ukraine come out a winner? Besides the fact there is no reason to believe Russia is negotiating seriously. The only way Russia agrees to a peace deal is if Ukraine gives up sovereignty and territory. Russia wants nothing less than a vassal state, or more like a province of Russia. 

1) EU membership 2) continued NATO support 3) decades of suckling on  the Western teat to counter the Russian threat resulting in a stronger military, closer Western ties, improved economic ties, an improved economy and a better standard of living for a country whose per capita earnings is $US300 a month - to name a few.  In 2017, Ukraine was the poorest country in Europe. In 2020 GDP per capita of $US3,700. Hundreds of millions of dollars are pouring into Ukraine to fight the war and much more will follow during peacetime. The war is tragic but if Ukraine survive as an independent country their future looks much brighter than it did before the war.

[Fanta]

12 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

NATO is in the Ukraines corner providing weapons and intelligence.

China is not in Russias corner.

China is not in Russias corner? You better tell Winnie the Pooh in China that because he signed a 99 paragraph pledge to support with Russia days before the invasion. 
https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/russia-and-china-unveil-a-pact-against-america-and-the-west 
 

[Fanta]

32 minutes ago, Transam said:

16 minutes ago, Transam said:

Don't slice up my posts.....

I edited for brevity. Now replaced as per your “request”.  I have no need to slice your posts to obscure meaning. Your arguments, on the other hand, are easily shredded. 

[Marble-eye]

Just now, Fanta said:

I want peace, many want blood. Do you believe all the Western press you read or only the war coverage? You can wish, hope and pray all you want but reality won’t listen. “If Russia stops fighting” we should all be on the lookout for flying pigs and unicorns airlifting supplies to the Ukrainian front line troops. And you choose to ignore exactly what Zelenskyy and many Western politicians are trying to achieve - a negotiated peace - because you mistakenly believe that equals a surrender. Pop quiz - what happens after the civilians at Mariupol are evacuated? Will the Russian air force and navy will turn that city into rubble from afar? Or did you forget about the Russian Air Force and Navy? 

Putin wanted a war, the Ukranians didn't. Putin started to lose the war so instead of targeting military personnel he chose to bomb civilian tenement blocks and the like, so the "blood" you are referring to is all being shed by the civilian Ukranians. Many feel, myself included that Putin and his oddball fighting forces has now crossed the Rubicon and there is now no turning back. Putin has made his bed, he will now have to lie (lie being the operative word) in it.

Many of the Russian soldiers can see the futility of their presence now in the Ukraine, it is now a case for killing and wanton destruction we haven't seen since WW2. Many of the Russian soldiers are now turning on their leaders and refusing to carry out orders, a sure sign of losing, Russia has lost face no matter what happens.

Of course at the end of the day the final decision will lay in the hands of the Ukranians on whether to do a deal with an opposition that lies and cannot be trusted, and of course many of the Ukranians will have lost loved ones, seen fellow comrades lose loved ones, personally I can't see a deal coming any time soon, Putin needs to pay very heavily for his actions, unfortunately many of the canon fodder he sent to illegally invade the Ukraine will pay the ultimate price too.

 

 

 

[Marble-eye]

29 minutes ago, Fanta said:

You equate a negotiated peace with a surrender. They are not the same as I have explained already. And your memories of WWII don’t seem to include the declaration of war by Britain, France etc against the Germans. As I said before, only 2 countries are in the ring. NATO may be in Ukraine’s corner and China behind Russia but no-one else is getting in the ring. Accept that simple fact and your desire for a deathmatch seems…. less than proper. 

Unbelievable poppycock.

[Rookiescot]

7 minutes ago, Fanta said:

China is not in Russias corner? You better tell Winnie the Pooh in China that because he signed a 99 paragraph pledge to support with Russia days before the invasion. 
https://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/russia-and-china-unveil-a-pact-against-america-and-the-west 
 

What weapons has China sent then?

Do you think China wants the same kind of sanctions imposed on it that Russia is currently under? Do you think China is going to risk its biggest markets in order to help Czar Putin win?

Absolutely no chance.

[EdwardV]

5 minutes ago, Fanta said:

The war is tragic but if Ukraine survive as an independent country their future looks much brighter than it did before the war.

That’s just it, Russia will never allow Ukraine to be a fully independent country.. An independent Ukraine, is and will always be a threat to Russia. They have better farm land, plenty of natural resources, a navigable river with access to the ocean to help generate capital, and better weather. If they could get their internet issues under control, they could become more attractive than Russia for foreign capital investment.  
 

in addition Russia would never trust a fully independent Ukraine. It’s why there is no talk coming from the Russian side of anything less that full demilitarization and loss of sovereignty. Two things they know Ukraine can’t give up. Right now Russia is just negotiating for time. 

[Stardust]

50 minutes ago, Fanta said:

I want peace, many want blood. Do you believe all the Western press you read or only the war coverage? You can wish, hope and pray all you want but reality won’t listen. “If Russia stops fighting” we should all be on the lookout for flying pigs and unicorns airlifting supplies to the Ukrainian front line troops. And you choose to ignore exactly what Zelenskyy and many Western politicians are trying to achieve - a negotiated peace - because you mistakenly believe that equals a surrender. Pop quiz - what happens after the civilians at Mariupol are evacuated? Will the Russian air force and navy will turn that city into rubble from afar? Or did you forget about the Russian Air Force and Navy? 

Peace?! Very simple do not invade a souvereign country and get out of it!

[Fanta]

3 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

What weapons has China sent then?

Do you think China wants the same kind of sanctions imposed on it that Russia is currently under? Do you think China is going to risk its biggest markets in order to help Czar Putin win?

Absolutely no chance.

Russia is the second biggest exporter of arms in the world. Guess who their #1 client is ? Russia, unlike Ukraine, does not need to import weapons. And sanctions? China is Russia’s # 1 trading partner. Has China condemned the invasion or sanctioned Russia? No.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_industry_of_Russia

Read the statement for yourself and note that it specifically references “common adjacent regions” aka Taiwan and Ukraine. 

 

[Stardust]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

I want peace, many want blood. Do you believe all the Western press you read or only the war coverage? You can wish, hope and pray all you want but reality won’t listen. “If Russia stops fighting” we should all be on the lookout for flying pigs and unicorns airlifting supplies to the Ukrainian front line troops. And you choose to ignore exactly what Zelenskyy and many Western politicians are trying to achieve - a negotiated peace - because you mistakenly believe that equals a surrender. Pop quiz - what happens after the civilians at Mariupol are evacuated? Will the Russian air force and navy will turn that city into rubble from afar? Or did you forget about the Russian Air Force and Navy? 

Do you really think the Russians can hold any Ukraine city on the long term? The resistance will be the biggest hell for the Russian occupiers! Any Russian governer will die, thats for sure!

And why you asking for more boots on the ground? Not wish too much as Ukraine is Europe and everybody able just to walk over the border!

 

 

 

[Fanta]

5 minutes ago, Stardust said:

Do you really think the Russians can hold any Ukraine city on the long term? The resistance will be the biggest hell for the Russian occupiers! Any Russian governer will die, thats for sure!

And why you asking for more boots on the ground? Not wish too much as Ukraine is Europe and everybody able just to walk over the border!

Who said anything about long term occupation?  I was referring to Mariupol. After the civilian population is evacuated, via the agreed human corridor, who is left? Answer - the Ukrainian armed forces. Mariupol will not become another Stalingrad. The Russian Air Force controls the skies and the Navy controls the port. They will flatten the place. Sad but true. Look at a map. 
And “boots on the ground” is a simple acknowledgement that there are a lot more Russians than Ukrainians and that NATO and non NATO countries talk the talk but they are loath to walk the walk. 

[EdwardV]

20 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Russia is the second biggest exporter of arms in the world. Guess who their #1 client is ? Russia, unlike Ukraine, does not need to import weapons. And sanctions? China is Russia’s # 1 trading partner. Has China condemned the invasion or sanctioned Russia? No.

Besides the fact Russia cut China off from purchasing their best weapons about two years ago (and for good reason too). You are looking at it from the wrong direction. It doesn’t matter what China is to Russia, but what Russia is to China. Russia is China’s 12th largest trading partner. Guess who is number one and two. The US and EU. Trade with the US is worth about $570B to $87B for Russia. Economically China can’t do without the US (the last major consumption driven economy in the world) or the EU. Russia not so much. They won’t  risk sanctions from the US and EU. 

[Rookiescot]

43 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Russia is the second biggest exporter of arms in the world. Guess who their #1 client is ? Russia, unlike Ukraine, does not need to import weapons. And sanctions? China is Russia’s # 1 trading partner. Has China condemned the invasion or sanctioned Russia? No.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_industry_of_Russia

Read the statement for yourself and note that it specifically references “common adjacent regions” aka Taiwan and Ukraine. 

Is Russia Chinas biggest market? China trades more with Vietnam than it does with Russia.

No chance China is coming in on Russias side. No chance China wants hit by sanctions.

Does Russia need China? Probably yes but China does not need Russia.

[Stardust]

56 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Russia is the second biggest exporter of arms in the world. Guess who their #1 client is ? Russia, unlike Ukraine, does not need to import weapons. And sanctions? China is Russia’s # 1 trading partner. Has China condemned the invasion or sanctioned Russia? No.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_industry_of_Russia

Read the statement for yourself and note that it specifically references “common adjacent regions” aka Taiwan and Ukraine. 

I guess you have no knowledge about any tech. Russia has no semi coductor industry for that. Russia cannot produce any tech without supply from Europe! So where do they get it from?! From China? China is also importer of that and you think they would sent it to Russia and then get cut off, too. That would mean all their productions would be down.

So explain us how they will produce now? India got cut off already by supply from Russia because they simply cannot deliver it is just what they have in the stocks avaiable!

I guess you not even understand the problem even for their civillian aircrafts!