News Forum - Putin sends ‘peacekeeping’ troops to Ukraine after recognising breakaway regions

[butterfly]

11 minutes ago, Vigo said:

The key difference is that the USA actions were typically joint actions authorized by the UN

Vietnam, Korea War, Iraq? rings a bell?

failed again

Edited February 24, 2022 by butterfly

[OOber]

41 minutes ago, Vigo said:

Do you  believe that Thailand would ever participate in sanctions against Russia? Imagine the devastation in Pattaya and Phuket if some of the  corrupt foreigners could not enter.

In respect to a country defending Russia's position, I believe that only the proxy state of Belarus is on side and that is because the despot who rules Belarus depends on Russia to remain in control.  

Actually, Thailand will follow any UN or world leaders sanctions. I spoke to business leaders here in Thailand today and they already prepared for less business from Russia due to sanctions.

[OOber]

4 hours ago, AussieBob said:

The NATO supported Govt of Ukraine recently unilaterally changed the Constitution and then formally committed to joining NATO and the EU. That is why Russia reacted - the 'deal' that created Ukraine in 1991 was that NATO would never be on Russia's doorstep. 

In return Russia promised to become a full democracy.

[OOber]

4 hours ago, AussieBob said:

The NATO supported Govt of Ukraine recently unilaterally changed the Constitution and then formally committed to joining NATO and the EU. That is why Russia reacted - the 'deal' that created Ukraine in 1991 was that NATO would never be on Russia's doorstep. 

That was a promise by John Major. The PM of a country with fluctuating opinions. 

[Marc26]

There will never be another video that captures America more than this....

 

 

[KRLMRX]

UK to ban Russians from holding more than £50,000 in British bank accounts - FCDO (Ministry of Foreign Affairs)

Well, now Putin will definitely retreat.

[butterfly]

34 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

UK to ban Russians from holding more than £50,000 in British bank accounts - FCDO (Ministry of Foreign Affairs)

Well, now Putin will definitely retreat.

and again the west using collective punishment and alienating ordinary Russian citizens in the UK because of Putin actions. That's how ridiculous this whole affair is.

Edited February 24, 2022 by butterfly

[JohninDublin]

3 hours ago, EdwardV said:

That's called a "whataboutism". It's an attempt to either change the subject, or to rationalize away a bad behavior on your part by pointing out one by someone else. 

The real question that needs to be asked of "whatabouters", is "Since when did two wrongs ever make a right"?

[SkipsPa]

Not being politically minded myself I did see this item on Facebook - I have no knowledge of the truth of it:-

[Alavan]

1 hour ago, SkipsPa said:

Not being politically minded myself I did see this item on Facebook - I have no knowledge of the truth of it:-

I would say that Makani Anaho is a Russian troll. Putin can’t declare any part of a foreign country indpendent. Just check UN.

[Lyp14 [ctxa]]

54 minutes ago, Alavan said:

I would say that Makani Anaho is a Russian troll. Putin can’t declare any part of a foreign country indpendent. Just check UN.

Putin can declare independent whatever he wants, others supporting his claims is a different matter. 
 

But yes, he is legally free to claim whatever he wants. He is not legally free to invade a foreign country though, even if the inhabitants in those regions largely support Russia. 
 

But also, one can see why Putin is upset, the thought of having NATO on your door must drive Putin crazy. Imagine if Putin revived the Warsaw Pact and Mexico joined, placing the Russian army at the doors of the US… Wouldn’t Biden go mad to? 
 

Not supporting the invasion of Russia, in fact I am with Ukraine. But maybe a little more common sense from the Yanks and NATO would have prevented many Ukrainian civilians from dying.

[AussieBob]

9 hours ago, huhuarf said:

Yeah I mean after the invasion of Crimea it would be silly for Ukraine to join NATO.

 

There has been a few ignorant statements made by members to anyone like me that dares suggest that they understand the reasons WHY Russia invaded Ukraine - this is another one.  I will answer them all with the same reply:

I understood WHY Russia invade the self-declared independent States - that does not mean I support it.

I never have and never will support Russia invading all of Ukraine - but I do understand WHY.

IMO NATO is the main cause of this occurring.

If you push a Communist Dictator like Putin too hard and too far, it is mainly your fault if he eventually reacts and hits back. My question is - did NATO deliberately force Putin to take this action, or did they think he was only bluffing and would never actually invade despite publicly declaring he would in 2016, if Ukraine and NATO continued down the path they were taking.

Only an idiot would expect Russia to stand by and allow NATO to place missiles in Ukraine on its border and do nothing because it is 'right'. As I said a long time ago - well before the current events - this stand off was like the Bay of Pigs when Kennedy demanded USSR remove its nukes from Cuba or a war would happen. 

Putin has been saying for years that it was totally unacceptable to Russia for Ukraine to join NATO (thereby allowing NATO to place armaments and missiles on its border).  NATO, unlike USSR, did not see reason and back down, and the western Ukrainian Govt pushed ahead full steam. USSR backed down to Kennedy - despite all the complaints and requests from Castro for them to stay and protect Cuba - NATO should have done the same.

That does not excuse Russia invading all of Ukraine IMO.  Coming to the 'rescue' of the self-declared independent States who have been at war with the Ukrainian Govt in western Ukraine was one thing. But to go further and invade all of Ukraine, and threatening anyone interfering with nuclear retaliation, is totally unacceptable IMO.  There is a reason the western powers have not just taken over Nth Korea - Kim would unleash catastrophic responses and nobody wins in a nuclear war.  Pushing Putin as hard and for as long as NATO did, only had one outcome. 

When conflict starts, the first victim is the truth - each side blames the other for it starting - we are mainly getting the western NATO USA EU version of the truth.  Russia's claims and statements are being altered and suppressed - but I have access to Russian news services so I see their lies to.  The truth is always somewhere towards the middle - not either of the extreme ends. 

 

[AussieBob]

9 hours ago, JohninDublin said:

Do you not see a problem with the idea that a decision by a gov in 1991, can fetter the ambitions of all future govs? And that's before you consider the matter of duress.

If Russia had been more stable and had allowed democracy to do it's part, I am not sure that there would be any need for NATO today. Instead, they had a coup, voted for a drunken clown to replace Gorbachev, and in turn, replaced that clown with the worst that the KGB can produce. It's quite easy to imagine Ukrainians being like tenants in social housing, in fear of their ASBO neighbours. 

Under the old Soviet system, it was always a a local who was the titular head of each Republic, with an ethnic Russian at No2, who was the real power within that region. Ukraine was an independent country until it was conquered by the USSR after a 4 year bloody war in 1921. Is it any surprise that when the Nazis invaded in 1941, many Ukrainians joined the German Army, seeing the Nazis as liberators? Is it also any surprise, that ethnic Russians who lost their power when Ukraine became free of Russia, wanted a return to Russian authoritarianism.  

There is a similar situation in Moldova, where ethnic Russians have formed a widely unrecognised, Transnistria and aligned itself to and is receiving military aid. The only thing standing in the way of it becoming part of contiguous Russia is southern Ukraine. I can well imagine that even in the Baltic states, there are ethnic Russians who want to re-join the old Mother Russia, which is what led to the invasion of Ukraine.

Clearly, the Russians are not going to attack the Baltics, but Moldova would be an easy mouthful for them if they manage to pacify Ukraine. I think the time has come for all the former Soviet Republics where there are Russian separatist elements, to deport these people as a threat to their national security. I am not generally in favour of collective punishments, but if Ukraine prevails, I would not be unhappy to see them deport all 8 mill plus Ethnic Russians back to the "Motherland". In fact, in my opinion, now would be a good time for the Moldovans to recover and expel the Russians from the so called Republic of Transnistria.

Good points - I doubt that Russia will take over all the Baltics too.  They cannot invade all of them without NATO retaliation, because some of them have joined NATO.   Right now Ukraine is not a member of NATO and that is why they cannot militarily respond.  Russia (Putin) drew the line at Ukraine - NATO and Ukraine stepped over that line.  They pushed - Putin reacted.  Rights and Wrongs dont come into it - otherwise Nth Korea would not exist and Taiwan would be a free and independent country and etc., all over the world. 

[EdwardV]

3 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

Russia (Putin) drew the line at Ukraine - NATO and Ukraine stepped over that line.  They pushed - Putin reacted. 

For the sake of argument, what was this line nato stepped over? They told Ukraine years ago they couldn’t join nato, and fact is they didnt qualify and never would. I’m not saying the west doesn’t have some culpability just don’t think it rose to the level that justified attacking a sovereign country. 

[AussieBob]

37 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

For the sake of argument, what was this line nato stepped over? They told Ukraine years ago they couldn’t join nato, and fact is they didnt qualify and never would. I’m not saying the west doesn’t have some culpability just don’t think it rose to the level that justified attacking a sovereign country. 

This summarises well the public goings on about NATO and Ukraine.           https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations

QUOTE:  "At the June 2021 Brussels Summit, NATO leaders reiterated the decision taken at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine would become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) as an integral part of the process, "

NATO has never formally announced that Ukraine will never be accepted as a member of NATO - in fact it has done the opposite.  It is in the Minsk Agreements that they do not do that, so of course a lot of their 'behind the scenes' activities have been largely hidden.  If NATO/EU had formally come out and declared that Ukraine will never be admitted to their organisations, I reckon Putin might have accepted that and would not have invaded. Maybe.  But he definitely would not have had any excuse to invade. The fact that Ukraine over the last few years has been making more and more belligerent announcements about Ukraine joining NATO, were never countered by NATO - or USA or France Germany etc. 

Let me give you and others some more idea of what really has been happening - not condoning Russia - merely pointing out observations as to the reasons why. 

There are stories today inside Russia that the President of Ukraine threated Putin after the start of the occupation of the self-declared eastern States, that when Ukraine becomes part of NATO he is going to place nuclear missiles right along the Russian border. If true and it seems likely that it is - how is that for provocation?  And since this all started the Ukraine President has been screaming the loudest and hardest that a European War and WW3 is about to start - demanding the west/NATO attack Russia is an all out war. 

The former British Ambassador to Russia has stated in the media that in his opinion the West and NATO totally ignored Putin's threats to stop. They went ahead with their plans to allow Ukraine to join NATO, despite all the warnings (from him and others) that Putin will eventually react if pushed too far. 

[Tim_Melb]

15 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Oz must be exporting LNG to Germany by Sea in specialized ocean vessels.

All LNG exports from Australia are by sea.

[oldschooler]

6 hours ago, SkipsPa said:

Not being politically minded myself I did see this item on Facebook - I have no knowledge of the truth of it:-

Bad practice to get news or opinion from social media. Use western news media but carefully plus direct expert sources like Western : Govt. Ministers, Public Institutes, Historians, Military, Analysts. As close to source as possible.

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, AussieBob said:

This summarises well the public goings on about NATO and Ukraine.           https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations

QUOTE:  "At the June 2021 Brussels Summit, NATO leaders reiterated the decision taken at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine would become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) as an integral part of the process, "

NATO has never formally announced that Ukraine will never be accepted as a member of NATO - in fact it has done the opposite.  It is in the Minsk Agreements that they do not do that, so of course a lot of their 'behind the scenes' activities have been largely hidden.  If NATO/EU had formally come out and declared that Ukraine will never be admitted to their organisations, I reckon Putin might have accepted that and would not have invaded. Maybe.  But he definitely would not have had any excuse to invade. The fact that Ukraine over the last few years has been making more and more belligerent announcements about Ukraine joining NATO, were never countered by NATO - or USA or France Germany etc. 

Let me give you and others some more idea of what really has been happening - not condoning Russia - merely pointing out observations as to the reasons why. 

There are stories today inside Russia that the President of Ukraine threated Putin after the start of the occupation of the self-declared eastern States, that when Ukraine becomes part of NATO he is going to place nuclear missiles right along the Russian border. If true and it seems likely that it is - how is that for provocation?  And since this all started the Ukraine President has been screaming the loudest and hardest that a European War and WW3 is about to start - demanding the west/NATO attack Russia is an all out war. 

The former British Ambassador to Russia has stated in the media that in his opinion the West and NATO totally ignored Putin's threats to stop. They went ahead with their plans to allow Ukraine to join NATO, despite all the warnings (from him and others) that Putin will eventually react if pushed too far. 

Ukraine will NEVER join NATO. Period. NATO care NOTHING about what Putin says only what he DOES. NATO do not take demands from outsiders.NATO admits new member states as ONLY they and it wish. NATO doing what NATO Do. Their Job. DEFENSIVE Alliance. Putin naturally objects. TOUGH.

Nobody is “pushing” Putin, except Putin. Putin during Covid has become a sad isolated twisted freak dictator, shuttling only between Kremlin & House, not even listening to his own top servants anymore, who exist only as his nodding donkeys. 

 

 

[oldschooler]

2 hours ago, AussieBob said:

Good points - I doubt that Russia will take over all the Baltics too.  They cannot invade all of them without NATO retaliation, because some of them have joined NATO.   Right now Ukraine is not a member of NATO and that is why they cannot militarily respond.  Russia (Putin) drew the line at Ukraine - NATO and Ukraine stepped over that line.  They pushed - Putin reacted.  Rights and Wrongs dont come into it - otherwise Nth Korea would not exist and Taiwan would be a free and independent country and etc., all over the world. 

NATOs “ lines” are their democratic charter. NATO do not “push” .Period. Outsiders’words rightly ignored. Taiwan IS a free nation. 

[CamPat]

5 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Ukraine will NEVER join NATO. Period. NATO care NOTHING about what Putin says only what he DOES. NATO do not take demands from outsiders.NATO admits new member states as ONLY they and it wish. NATO doing what NATO Do. Their Job. DEFENSIVE Alliance. Putin naturally objects. TOUGH.

Nobody is “pushing” Putin, except Putin. Putin during Covid has become a sad isolated twisted freak dictator, shuttling only between Kremlin & House, not even listening to his own top servants anymore, who exist only as his nodding donkeys. 

Sounds more like retarded Joe Biden to me.

[oldschooler]

1 minute ago, CamPat said:

Sounds more like retarded Joe Biden to me.

Subject is Putin -Ukraine-  NATO. 

[Fester]

11 hours ago, OOber said:

That was a promise by John Major. The PM of a country with fluctuating opinions. 

But Major's opinions never fluctuated - they were all wrong. 

[JohninDublin]

9 hours ago, SkipsPa said:

Not being politically minded myself I did see this item on Facebook - I have no knowledge of the truth of it:-

In all the circumstances, as soon as someone tries to introduce "HB's laptop", I say to myself, "This is someone that needs to be ignored".

[JohninDublin]

7 hours ago, Lyp14 [ctxa] said:

Putin can declare independent whatever he wants, others supporting his claims is a different matter. 
 

But yes, he is legally free to claim whatever he wants. He is not legally free to invade a foreign country though, even if the inhabitants in those regions largely support Russia. 
 

But also, one can see why Putin is upset, the thought of having NATO on your door must drive Putin crazy. Imagine if Putin revived the Warsaw Pact and Mexico joined, placing the Russian army at the doors of the US… Wouldn’t Biden go mad to? 
 

Not supporting the invasion of Russia, in fact I am with Ukraine. But maybe a little more common sense from the Yanks and NATO would have prevented many Ukrainian civilians from dying.

I can't make any sense of your last sentence. Ukraine want's to join  NATO. NATO have not acceded to that request. Russia has invaded Ukraine. Where is the lack of common sense by the Yanks and NATO?

[oldschooler]

4 hours ago, AussieBob said:

This summarises well the public goings on about NATO and Ukraine.           https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–NATO_relations

QUOTE:  "At the June 2021 Brussels Summit, NATO leaders reiterated the decision taken at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine would become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) as an integral part of the process, "

NATO has never formally announced that Ukraine will never be accepted as a member of NATO - in fact it has done the opposite.  It is in the Minsk Agreements that they do not do that, so of course a lot of their 'behind the scenes' activities have been largely hidden.  If NATO/EU had formally come out and declared that Ukraine will never be admitted to their organisations, I reckon Putin might have accepted that and would not have invaded. Maybe.  But he definitely would not have had any excuse to invade. The fact that Ukraine over the last few years has been making more and more belligerent announcements about Ukraine joining NATO, were never countered by NATO - or USA or France Germany etc. 

Let me give you and others some more idea of what really has been happening - not condoning Russia - merely pointing out observations as to the reasons why. 

There are stories today inside Russia that the President of Ukraine threated Putin after the start of the occupation of the self-declared eastern States, that when Ukraine becomes part of NATO he is going to place nuclear missiles right along the Russian border. If true and it seems likely that it is - how is that for provocation?  And since this all started the Ukraine President has been screaming the loudest and hardest that a European War and WW3 is about to start - demanding the west/NATO attack Russia is an all out war. 

The former British Ambassador to Russia has stated in the media that in his opinion the West and NATO totally ignored Putin's threats to stop. They went ahead with their plans to allow Ukraine to join NATO, despite all the warnings (from him and others) that Putin will eventually react if pushed too far. 

Ambassadors are  Diplomats, often political appointees & useless govt. mouthpieces….. not great sources on geopolitical strategy

Putins “threats & warnings” were suitably responded (or ignored) by the West.

Supporting “stories“ from Kremlin sources is just bad practice.

NATO do not accede to tyrant demands. That is not “provocation” to Putin !