News Forum - LATEST: Ukraine-Russia crisis, western leaders “convinced” Russia is ready to invade

[KRLMRX]

10 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Maybe they like this aspect of Russian “ Justice” ? Obviously Ukraine iS democratic but still highly corrupt. 

can't finish, indefatigable?  

then turn around and take the trouble to voice the criteria of democracy, taking into account the fact that in Ukraine:

- dissidents are persecuted and killed (Anatoly Shariy, Oles Buzina ...)

- ethnic and linguistic groups (Russian speakers) are discriminated against in their rights,

- opposition parties are not allowed to participate in elections or are discriminated against (Shariy,  Medvedchuk, communists)

I suppose the only criterion is "recognition by the West"?  Millions of people are dying because of this hypocrisy.

[butterfly]

2 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

can't finish, indefatigable?  

listen, you have to understand that some people are just too dumb to understand reasonable arguments and will just want to repeat what they have been "told" by the press or government officials :)

it's not a tragedy 

Edited February 21, 2022 by butterfly

[butterfly]

2 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

I suppose the only criterion is "recognition by the West"?  Millions of people are dying because of this hypocrisy.

 

exactly, and everyone with an ounce of brain can see it

obviously not everyone in this thread 

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by butterfly

[1l1]

Ukraine failed to perform the Minsk Protocol (2015) to end the war lasts 7 years between Kyiv and russian-speaking Donbas.

In 2014 Ukraine cancelled pensions and other financial support payments to it citizens left in Donbas and energy supply. So Russia pays the bill since 2015.

The people set a new government, public institutions and formed a state budget - the "proper democracy although quite flawed" (@oldschooler fav term), isn't it? 

Same story for Abhazia and South Osetia attacked by Georgia in 2008.

Now Russia declares Donbas as independed country and moves forces into.

Occupation of Ukraine? Formally, yes. In fact nothing is changed for Kyiv that was obligated but did nothing to stop the war, restore it sovereignty over eastern territories and support it citizens in need. Kyiv will not fight for it.

Edited February 21, 2022 by 1l1

[Freeduhdumb]

On 2/20/2022 at 3:13 PM, Soidog said:

Before this Ukrainian issue I had some sympathy with Putin. Over the past 30 years, western powers have continued to push ever closer to Russia and equip bordering countries with military equipment that they claim is for peaceful purposes. The same is true with China being virtually surrounded with American allies and military personnel/hardware. However, massing army’s on the border of a sovereign country and potentially starting a war that will kill thousands is utterly beyond the pale. This is 2022 for god sake. Surely we have all learned this is no way to solve the problems. 

Essentially you have agreed that the Western Powers are pushing ever closer... and yet you don't consider, just to point out two examples there are others, the attempted regime change operations of Belarus and Khazakstan as a "beyond the pale" existential threat that requires Putin and the Russian citizens to draw their lines in the sand? The "Red Lines" are not unreasonable requests and they are being ignored by the West, while they continue to encroach on Moscow... that is of course entirely unacceptable and Russia has been forced to increasingly act. If you let the bully on the school yard continue to bully you, then you will be dominated. This short comment does not even take into consideration the west's engineered coup de tat of Kiev in 2014 or the ever increasing NATO presence surrounding Russia. 

[Soidog]

1 minute ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Essentially you have agreed that the Western Powers are pushing ever closer... and yet you don't consider, just to point out two examples there are others, the attempted regime change operations of Belarus and Khazakstan as a "beyond the pale" existential threat that requires Putin and the Russian citizens to draw their lines in the sand? The "Red Lines" are not unreasonable requests and they are being ignored by the West, while they continue to encroach on Moscow... that is of course entirely unacceptable and Russia has been forced to increasingly act. If you let the bully on the school yard continue to bully you, then you will be dominated. 

Sorry, I’m not clear what point you are making. Perhaps you could clarify. You say I didn’t consider two other issues but don’t explain how that is relevant to my post? 

[Freeduhdumb]

1 minute ago, Soidog said:

Sorry, I’m not clear what point you are making. Perhaps you could clarify. You say I didn’t consider two other issues but don’t explain how that is relevant to my post? 

If you're not able to see the point I am making then I am simply wasting my time attempting to discuss with you in a format like this... Good day to you sir. 

[oldschooler]

8 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

can't finish, indefatigable?  

then turn around and take the trouble to voice the criteria of democracy, taking into account the fact that in Ukraine:

- dissidents are persecuted and killed (Anatoly Shariy, Oles Buzina ...)

- ethnic and linguistic groups (Russian speakers) are discriminated against in their rights,

- opposition parties are not allowed to participate in elections or are discriminated against (Shariy,  Medvedchuk, communists)

I suppose the only criterion is "recognition by the West"?  Millions of people are dying because of this hypocrisy.

 

rather similar to Russia’s “ democracy” then, if true. yes, rather than get into your claims, which sound like Russian propaganda, I’m happy to rely on UKUS taking up these undemocratic matters with Ukraine and their recognition of Ukraine as democratic. UK / US are the experts on democracy unlike Russia who clearly wish to repossess Ukraine by dirty tricks. see Russia already started now with invasion force. 

 

[Soidog]

13 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

If you're not able to see the point I am making then I am simply wasting my time attempting to discuss with you in a format like this... Good day to you sir. 

I simply asked you to clarify, I wasn’t suggesting for a second your point wasn’t valid.
 

I suspect you were criticising my point on the basis that I had failed to specifically mention the two points you raised. However, my comment that over the past 30 years I had some sympathy with Putin included those two events and many others. I simply wanted to be clear what your point was before further discussion.
 

I think we are in agreement here in that the West should not be too surprised the Ukrainian situation has got to where it has. I don’t blame Putin for flexing his military muscle and drawing a line. I simply think that taking the next step and starting a war is a step too far and I would lose sympathy if such a step is taken. 
 

The solution is not easy. It’s unreasonable to expect a number of countries to remain sterile border countries. Unable to join economic pacts or military security pacts for fear of offending one side or the other. 

[Freeduhdumb]

1 minute ago, Soidog said:

I simply asked you to clarify, I wasn’t suggesting for a second your point wasn’t valid.
 

I suspect you were criticising my point on the basis that I had failed to specifically mention the two points you raised. However, my comment that over the past 30 years I had some sympathy with Putin included those two events and many others. I simply wanted to be clear what your point was before further discussion.
 

I think we are in agreement here in that the West should not be too surprised the Ukrainian situation has got to where it has. I don’t blame Putin for flexing his military muscle and drawing a line. I simply think that taking the next step and starting a war is a step too far and I would lose sympathy if such a step is taken. 
 

The solution is not easy. It’s unreasonable to expect a number of countries to remain sterile border countries. Unable to join economic pacts or military security pacts for fear of offending one side or the other. 

Diplomacy has failed... Russia is fed up. The Minsk II agreement is clearly not going to be held up on the western side. The corrupt Ukraine will now need to be managed accordingly. Putin is now maneuvering to secure the Donbass. Putin is done talking... action is now being implemented... it will be interesting to see how the west responds.  

[oldschooler]

7 hours ago, butterfly said:

exactly, and everyone with an ounce of brain can see it

obviously not everyone in this thread 

What I see is :-

(a) dictator Putin repeating in Uktraine his terrorist dirty tricks Georgia 2008 playbook, exposed in detail by US, now invading Ukraine

(b) so farewell now to Russian access to dollar trading and SWIFT banking. …. and Russian economy

(c) several tyrant Putin - adoring anti - democratic puppets on this forum, talking absolute shit about “ media” and “ western aggression “. while Putin rolls his slave army tanks across, and partitions, a sovereign nation. 

[Soidog]

1 hour ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Diplomacy has failed... Russia is fed up. The Minsk II agreement is clearly not going to be held up on the western side. The corrupt Ukraine will now need to be managed accordingly. Putin is now maneuvering to secure the Donbass. Putin is done talking... action is now being implemented... it will be interesting to see how the west responds.  

Yes it certainly seems that way. Whatever the failures and wherever the blame lies up until now, the next step is Putins. If he invades Ukraine I’m afraid it is utterly unacceptable to start a war. Defending an invader is one thing. To initiate war, whatever the political provocation, is unacceptable. 

[Stardust]

4 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Essentially you have agreed that the Western Powers are pushing ever closer... and yet you don't consider, just to point out two examples there are others, the attempted regime change operations of Belarus and Khazakstan as a "beyond the pale" existential threat that requires Putin and the Russian citizens to draw their lines in the sand? The "Red Lines" are not unreasonable requests and they are being ignored by the West, while they continue to encroach on Moscow... that is of course entirely unacceptable and Russia has been forced to increasingly act. If you let the bully on the school yard continue to bully you, then you will be dominated. This short comment does not even take into consideration the west's engineered coup de tat of Kiev in 2014 or the ever increasing NATO presence surrounding Russia. 

It was not the Nato that these countries wanted to be in the Nato, it was because of the aggresive Russia and experienced the Russian invasions before and decided for a apply. These countries were already fighting before for their souvereignity and had revolutions or in war to defend themselve from Russia. It has nothing to do with Nato or USA as some claimed. They not know the history of these countries. No european country or Nato member forced anybody or forced for expansion. This was the result that Russia always wanted to invade them or invaded them and the result of the will of the people of this countries. Now some of this posters want to explain how dare it is that these countries want their souverignity, decide for themself and how dare is it from that they not be invaded from Russia, occupied by Russia and raped. Some are really not able to think, not know any history of these countries and even think they are more clever and understand it better. For sure not and the ones who know these countries and their history will say what kind of empty heads who know nothing about. Maybe they should make a holiday in Estonia etc tell this rubbish to the people there and then wondering if they ask them if they are clowns when they come with their absurd theories and zero knowledge about the reality or history of this country.

[Freeduhdumb]

4 hours ago, oldschooler said:

What I see is :-

(a) dictator Putin repeating in Uktraine his terrorist dirty tricks Georgia 2008 playbook, exposed in detail by US, now invading Ukraine

(b) so farewell now to Russian access to dollar trading and SWIFT banking. …. and Russian economy

(c) several tyrant Putin - adoring anti - democratic puppets on this forum, talking absolute shit about “ media” and “ western aggression “. while Putin rolls his slave army tanks across, and partitions, a sovereign nation. 

You're ill informed... I'll leave it at that.

[oldschooler]

30 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

You're ill informed... I'll leave it at that.

   Category (c ) it is then …..

[Convert54]

21 hours ago, oldschooler said:

US long self -sufficient in Energy. That 1.5 billion if true a convenience low cost purchase for US benefit & means literally nothing in US economy.

It has been a long time (1970's)  since the US was close to self sufficient in crude oil. Even a lot of their crude comes from well inland and has to be transported to the coast where the refineries are located to process export product. Overall the US imports more crude than it produces despite being the biggest producer.

Imports from Russia are not so significant. From Canada yes.

 

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, Freeduhdumb said:

You're ill informed... I'll leave it at that.

You’re well supported by fellow kremlin / anti - west propagandists here I see

[oldschooler]

3 hours ago, Stardust said:

It was not the Nato that these countries wanted to be in the Nato, it was because of the aggresive Russia and experienced the Russian invasions before and decided for a apply. These countries were already fighting before for their souvereignity and had revolutions or in war to defend themselve from Russia. It has nothing to do with Nato or USA as some claimed. They not know the history of these countries. No european country or Nato member forced anybody or forced for expansion. This was the result that Russia always wanted to invade them or invaded them and the result of the will of the people of this countries. Now some of this posters want to explain how dare it is that these countries want their souverignity, decide for themself and how dare is it from that they not be invaded from Russia, occupied by Russia and raped. Some are really not able to think, not know any history of these countries and even think they are more clever and understand it better. For sure not and the ones who know these countries and their history will say what kind of empty heads who know nothing about. Maybe they should make a holiday in Estonia etc tell this rubbish to the people there and then wondering if they ask them if they are clowns when they come with their absurd theories and zero knowledge about the reality or history of this country.

Right, these kremlin puppets surely never been anywhere in Eastern Europe Unless SVR agent nor understand history or forms of Govt. Imagine they are SO dumb living their robot lives, never thinking for themselves, never knowing or understanding freedom vs tyranny. They are indeed Pitiful. 

[Convert54]

At least until 10 hours ago Ukraine was still declaring the air corridors through it airspace as  safe. In contradiction  growing numbers of airlines are  now ceasing to fly over or into. No surprise given history behind the Malaysian aircraft disaster which despite "conclusion" remains disputed .

 

[stuhan]

On 2/21/2022 at 5:51 PM, oldschooler said:

NATO never accept or care what Russia SAYS only react to Russian ACTIONS. NATO will smash Russias invasion forces in days if they move one foot onto NATO land. USA will by then have wrecked Russian Economy be stopping access to Dollar & SWIFT trading .
 

Well it would seem i was correct on two points so far, one being the sanctions won't matter to him, the other being the airstrikes, let see what happens about the third one.