News Forum - “Covid is going nowhere, get vaccinated” – leading Thai virologist

[AussieBob]

18 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

time to introduce universal laws in civilized countries mandating vax for all diseases, unless medically exempt. Austria have just done this for Covid. extend laws to anyone pushing pseudo - scientific beliefs (after three legal warnings).this nonsense has to be stamped out now, like Witch Persecutions or Inquisition.

putting your children or others at risk, like Mormons refusing their dying kids blood transfusions, should now have universal legal consequences (isolation, unemployment, no travel, fines, jail, kids vaxxed & treated without parents permission).

I dont agree with mandates - but I do agree with enforcing consequences on those who chose to not vaccinate.  They cant have their cake and eat it too.  The herd has rules and this is one the herd has implemented. Dont like it, then leave the herd - isolation, unemployment, no travel, fines, jail, etc.

[Rookiescot]

30 minutes ago, Manu said:

You contribute to misinform people, you are constantly inducing anxiety an very agressive and arrogant way, you keep coming up with links to The Lancet and else that you (or me or anyone else here) are not qualify to understand, even less to understand who wrote those and why (ever heard about the Lancetgate back in May last year? Can you recognise a scientist that has conflict of interests with the pharmaceutical industry? Do you even know what a conflict of interest is at all? etc...). I could go on and on but sorry, I need to go for a swim now...

...and you went as far as looking  into my last 10 posts? I raised my case. If I was going as mad and look at the last 1000 posts overall in all forums on all subjects, I bet 600 of them or very close are yours. So mathematically I am still good.

No no no, madness has never the last word with me so let me have it: there! Now you can ignore me... I promise, I will try to do the same. Cannot guarantee anything though, I like fun too much.

In order to post an article in the Lancet you have to be an expert in a relevant field. The article is then reviewed by other experts and corrections/clarifications made before it gets published.

Now the guys all you anti vaxers link to are weirdos living in their moms basement. Check their posting history and they all started out as covid deniers. When the market for that stuff fell away they became conspiracy theorists claiming covid is caused by 5G transmitters. When the vaccine came along it was all a plot by big pharma to inject a Bill Gates microchip into everyone. After that it was the vaccine is untested. Billions of injections later, with very few issues and now its suddenly "We are victims here being subjected to unfair restrictions because of our choice not to get vaccinated". "You have to respect our rights as a minority group".

Dont get a vaccine if you dont want one but you will have to live with the restrictions society places on you because of your choice. If new visa's require you to be fully vaccinated and you are not then go home (allowances should be made for those who are not yet vaccinated through no fault of their own).  If going out in public means a weekly PCR test then get it. Or stay at home.

Basically get used to it and stop complaining because frankly the vast majority of us dont care.

We have expended way to much time and effort constantly debunking the fake news that gets posted only to see it reposted a week or so later. 

[Manu]

Now I will try to answer the most repectul way... not easy, I admit.

So you are willing to send an 18 years old healthy teenager to jail cause he did not get a vaccine that has no benefit to him, that does not stop him to transmit the virus sars-cov-2 in the probable case he gets infected one day (and then gets immune naturally a much better way that the vaccine would do at the same time), with some risk of getting hurt by that vaccine more than covid could hurt him in the short-term, not knowing at all (nobody knows obviously) the effects of these new vaccines in the long term? Is this really the world you wish for?

[Faz]

Further posts have been removed following previous unheeded advice from the moderation team.
Some free 'weekend' break tickets are available for those who wish to continue with personal disparaging comments.

"The forum values and welcomes diverse opinions. So, it is likely you will come across opinions you do not agree with! It is fine to disagree with and challenge opinions, ideas, and facts. Attacking another member because their opinion differs, is not."

 

[Manu]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

In order to post an article in the Lancet you have to be an expert in a relevant field. The article is then reviewed by other experts and corrections/clarifications made before it gets published.

Now the guys all you anti vaxers link to are weirdos living in their moms basement. Check their posting history and they all started out as covid deniers. When the market for that stuff fell away they became conspiracy theorists claiming covid is caused by 5G transmitters. When the vaccine came along it was all a plot by big pharma to inject a Bill Gates microchip into everyone. After that it was the vaccine is untested. Billions of injections later, with very few issues and now its suddenly "We are victims here being subjected to unfair restrictions because of our choice not to get vaccinated". "You have to respect our rights as a minority group".

Dont get a vaccine if you dont want one but you will have to live with the restrictions society places on you because of your choice. If new visa's require you to be fully vaccinated and you are not then go home (allowances should be made for those who are not yet vaccinated through no fault of their own).  If going out in public means a weekly PCR test then get it. Or stay at home.

Basically get used to it and stop complaining because frankly the vast majority of us dont care.

We have expended way to much time and effort constantly debunking the fake news that gets posted only to see it reposted a week or so later. 

Not sure what I need to say that, but I am vaccinated.

So obiously another one that lives in a fairy world far away from the real one.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/05/lancet-had-to-do-one-of-the-biggest-retractions-in-modern-history-how-could-this-happen

Got more of that if needed...

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, Manu said:

Now I will try to answer the most repectul way... not easy, I admit.

So you are willing to send an 18 years old healthy teenager to jail cause he did not get a vaccine that has no benefit to him, that does not stop him to transmit the virus sars-cov-2 in the probable case he gets infected one day (and then gets immune naturally a much better way that the vaccine would do at the same time), with some risk of getting hurt by that vaccine more than covid could hurt him in the short-term, not knowing at all (nobody knows obviously) the effects of these new vaccines in the long term? Is this really the world you wish for?

If society says the 18 year old goes to jail then he goes to jail.

End of.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, Manu said:

Not sure what I need to say that, but I am vaccinated.

So obiously another one that lives in a fairy world far away from the real one.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/05/lancet-had-to-do-one-of-the-biggest-retractions-in-modern-history-how-could-this-happen

Got more of that if needed...

Read your link. The article was withdrawn by the three authors because they no longer believed its findings were valid.

When was the last time one of your select few anti vaxers admitted they were wrong about there being no covid? Or that 5G masts caused it? Or the microchip nonsense? Or any other of the half baked conspiracy theories and downright lies they publish?

If people dont want a vaccine then fine. But most of us are done with trying to talk some sense into you all. Make your choice and deal with the consequences. 

[Stardust]

15 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

I dont agree with mandates - but I do agree with enforcing consequences on those who chose to not vaccinate.  They cant have their cake and eat it too.  The herd has rules and this is one the herd has implemented. Dont like it, then leave the herd - isolation, unemployment, no travel, fines, jail, etc.

I agree normaly on your comments but it is absolute useless when 9 million of the compained 10 millions got scammed booked in advanced month ago and paid not got their vaccines. From the left one million are many who went to the vaccination centers and came home wothout their shot. Now he said they can have instead Pfizer without haveing the extra stock of 18 million (2 doses) or any clarity when, where and how they handle or organize it and even not say wjat happened with the money 9 million people a 4000 baht. Anyway any talking from this virologist who has anyway a bad reputation in the medical world is any way useless blah blah.

[Manu]

7 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

If society says the 18 year old goes to jail then he goes to jail.

End of.

So if the nazi regime had taken over Europe, so becoming "the society", "end of"? You would have simply complied to "society"? Yes, I guess.

Horrible human beings, not sure what else to say...

[AussieBob]

Clearly what is happening here, and right across the world (where allowed) as the pandemic seems to be going into the 'end game' (maybe) people are 'debating' whether there should be sanctions against those who refused to get vaccinated. Some are even arguing for mandatory vaccinations.   Mandating a medical procedure is a very dangerous step to take and sets a precedent - what will they mandate next?  Sanctions is fine - but they must be based on medical science - planes, trains, concerts, clubs, etc. 

I say 'maybe' because there has been a new mutation discovered in Africa that could be worse than Delta.  Dont come to Thailand now for a short holiday - besides all the problems and issues the Junta is hiding, there is now the chance that a new mutation is going to sweep across the world. If Thailand locks things down because of that new wave, you aint getting your money back - and be prepared for more testing - both in Thailand before flying out (positives will be staying another 10-14 days at their expense) and again in your home country (with quarantine probably). 

Hopefully that new wave never happens - and the issue becomes sanctions or no sanctions.  Doing a mandate like in Austria IMO is not the solution. 

   

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, Manu said:

So if the nazi regime had taken over Europe, so becoming "the society", "end of"? You would have simply complied to "society"? Yes, I guess.

Horrible human beings, not sure what else to say...

But they didnt did they? Because enough right minded people around the planet decided to stop them.

So your straw man argument just fell on its arse.

[Stardust]

11 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

Clearly what is happening here, and right across the world (where allowed) as the pandemic seems to be going into the 'end game' (maybe) people are 'debating' whether there should be sanctions against those who refused to get vaccinated. Some are even arguing for mandatory vaccinations.   Mandating a medical procedure is a very dangerous step to take and sets a precedent - what will they mandate next?  Sanctions is fine - but they must be based on medical science - planes, trains, concerts, clubs, etc. 

I say 'maybe' because there has been a new mutation discovered in Africa that could be worse than Delta.  Dont come to Thailand now for a short holiday - besides all the problems and issues the Junta is hiding, there is now the chance that a new mutation is going to sweep across the world. If Thailand locks things down because of that new wave, you aint getting your money back - and be prepared for more testing - both in Thailand before flying out (positives will be staying another 10-14 days at their expense) and again in your home country (with quarantine probably). 

Hopefully that new wave never happens - and the issue becomes sanctions or no sanctions.  Doing a mandate like in Austria IMO is not the solution. 

And for sure not for Thailand if you see the facts about the roll out and the scams. It would be absolute absurd to punish the people for all the incompetence and scams from the ones in charge. 9 million Thais booked in advance and paid moderna and now complaining why 10 millions not had their first shot what kind of foolish game is that. Then come with another foolish they can have the Pfizer instead without any info about this extra 19 million doses or where and when. But wanted to give the blame for the scam and failure the people. It is really dirty to put the blame on the people why they not received their vaccine or even to think about punishments or any other disadvantages for them.

[Cabra]

21 minutes ago, Manu said:

Again, another typical example of bad reading. Read again UncleFatBloke's comment, there is not one suggestion on vaccines not saving lives. In fact, his comment is very rational and I share this view based on what I have heard and read from many many experts and scientists. It is all a little about common sense too...

To suggest vaccines are suppose to STOP the virus in its tracks misses the point, and then subsequently encouraging others not to get vaccinated (or get a booster) is not helpful. We get vaccinated not just to help ourselves, but to help those around us. And we need to stop speaking in absolutes as if the vaccine is suppose to be a one-and-done magic bullet. I will continue to promote vaccines (Covid, Hep A, B or the new malaria vax, etc.), that's common sense... that's good public health policy!

p.s. what has doomed many a vaccine strategy is betting on the wrong vaccine (see THA), misinformation and discouraging people to participate. 

[Manu]

6 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Read your link. The article was withdrawn by the three authors because they no longer believed its findings were valid.

When was the last time one of your select few anti vaxers admitted they were wrong about there being no covid? Or that 5G masts caused it? Or the microchip nonsense? Or any other of the half baked conspiracy theories and downright lies they publish?

If people dont want a vaccine then fine. But most of us are done with trying to talk some sense into you all. Make your choice and deal with the consequences. 

IIt was published... and then withdrawn. How did this monstruosity get publsihed in the first place? Who wrote this article? And why? A "big mistake"? Find the answers to these questions and perhaps you will get some understanding. I give you a clue: it was to denigrate hydroxychloroquine. It has been proven that the guys who wrote this crap worked for Gilead. At that time last year, Gilead were promoting Remdesevir (Fauci was a big help), a crap they tried to flog first for Ebola, then for HIV but since it was useless, they had another go with covid. It turned up that Remdesevir, apart from being very expensive and useless, it was also very toxic. Eventually in October WHO recommend not to use it...the day after the European Union bought 1 billion euros of that crap (do you believe in huge concidences?). Gilead made 900 million profits with something toxic and useless. All this is of course very easily checked.

Now I am not sure what you are on about with your 5g or microship. What I know for sure is that the Pharmaceutical industry is the most corrupted and that you should be very carefull to put your entire trust into their hands.

[AussieBob]

7 minutes ago, Manu said:

So if the nazi regime had taken over Europe, so becoming "the society", "end of"? You would have simply complied to "society"? Yes, I guess.

Horrible human beings, not sure what else to say...

Horrible thing to say - please dont call people who disagree with you Nazis.

There are many medical conditions whereby people are compulsorily treated - mental conditions are the main ones. But the over-whelming criteria for compulsory 'medical treatment' is the potential for the harm to others. It is not about individual rights - it is about what is best for the group. 

Should people be forced to vaccinate - that is a complex discussion, but on principle I oppose it. However, it is compulsory for someone diagnosed with Leprosy to be treated and for them to be kept away from other people (no choice). Someone diagnosed with HIV does not have to undergo compulsory treatment, but they do have legal obligations upon them with regards to their sexual interactions with others - they can and some have been charged.  So how far does society go with regards to Covid?

Mandatory treatment for Covid is IMO unacceptable - but sanctions is IMO a reasonable approach - until the pandemic is declared over. And it aint over yet - and it aint going away.   This will be the contentious issues going forward - mandatory treatment, and sanctions.

May I suggest you watch the movie 'Contagion' - that is what would happen if Covid becomes as bad as they first predicted.  But so far the vaccines and isolation has worked in that the numbers of ICU cases and deaths would be a lot higher if they had not developed vaccines and did no social isolation. Unless you have some accredited medical study that shows the vaccines and isolation made no difference.

[Bob20]

1 minute ago, Manu said:

IIt was published... and then withdrawn. How did this monstruosity get publsihed in the first place? Who wrote this article? And why? A "big mistake"? Find the answers to these questions and perhaps you will get some understanding. I give you a clue: it was to denigrate hydroxychloroquine. It has been proven that the guys who wrote this crap worked for Gilead. At that time last year, Gilead were promoting Remdesevir (Fauci was a big help), a crap they tried to flog first for Ebola, then for HIV but since it was useless, they had another go with covid. It turned up that Remdesevir, apart from being very expensive and useless, it was also very toxic. Eventually in October WHO recommend not to use it...the day after the European Union bought 1 billion euros of that crap (do you believe in huge concidences?). Gilead made 900 million profits with something toxic and useless. All this is of course very easily checked.

Now I am not sure what you are on about with your 5g or microship. What I know for sure is that the Pharmaceutical industry is the most corrupted and that you should be very carefull to put your entire trust into their hands.

Except for when you have trouble breathing and you beg big bad pharma and money hungry doctors for help of course.

Then all your "principles and accusations" go mysteriously silent and they have to come to your rescue

[Stonker]

1 hour ago, Cabra said:

Are you really suggesting vaccines are not saving lives? That's utter non-sense. Some work better than others, certainly. But to suggest vaccines are not a valid tool against the spread of viruses is categorically wrong. Of course you are entitled to your opinion. But you might want to chat up a virologist. 

Exactly - it's totally untrue.

[Manu]

1 minute ago, Bob20 said:

Except for when you have trouble breathing and you beg big bad pharma and money hungry doctors for help of course.

Then all your "principles and accusations" go mysteriously silent and they have to come to your rescue

You have a very strange concept of "ignoring" mister Bob... You just can't help it, can you?

When you buy a car, do you expect the product to be safe? When I have trouble breathing, I buy a product from Big Pharma, it is a commercial exchange, I pay for it so I expect my product to be safe and effective, not dangerous and useless. Not you?

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, Manu said:

IIt was published... and then withdrawn. How did this monstruosity get publsihed in the first place? Who wrote this article? And why? A "big mistake"? Find the answers to these questions and perhaps you will get some understanding. I give you a clue: it was to denigrate hydroxychloroquine. It has been proven that the guys who wrote this crap worked for Gilead. At that time last year, Gilead were promoting Remdesevir (Fauci was a big help), a crap they tried to flog first for Ebola, then for HIV but since it was useless, they had another go with covid. It turned up that Remdesevir, apart from being very expensive and useless, it was also very toxic. Eventually in October WHO recommend not to use it...the day after the European Union bought 1 billion euros of that crap (do you believe in huge concidences?). Gilead made 900 million profits with something toxic and useless. All this is of course very easily checked.

Now I am not sure what you are on about with your 5g or microship. What I know for sure is that the Pharmaceutical industry is the most corrupted and that you should be very carefull to put your entire trust into their hands.

Another conspiracy theory.

And no big pharma are not corrupt. I used to work for Astra Zeneca. I know it to be a decent company with strong values. They do a lot for third world countries often incurring a loss because of it. They were providing the vaccine at cost price (although I think they are now making a small profit) and allowed the license to manufacture the vaccine to be given free to many other companies around the world. 

It is also working on a malaria vaccine (there will be virtually no profit to be had there either). It has provided millions of mosquito nets to African countries free of charge. It provided thousands to tonnes of rice seeds with vitamin A included to alleviate eyesight problems which were rampant across Africa.

[Manu]

7 minutes ago, AussieBob said:

Horrible thing to say - please dont call people who disagree with you Nazis.

There are many medical conditions whereby people are compulsorily treated - mental conditions are the main ones. But the over-whelming criteria for compulsory 'medical treatment' is the potential for the harm to others. It is not about individual rights - it is about what is best for the group. 

Should people be forced to vaccinate - that is a complex discussion, but on principle I oppose it. However, it is compulsory for someone diagnosed with Leprosy to be treated and for them to be kept away from other people (no choice). Someone diagnosed with HIV does not have to undergo compulsory treatment, but they do have legal obligations upon them with regards to their sexual interactions with others - they can and some have been charged.  So how far does society go with regards to Covid?

Mandatory treatment for Covid is IMO unacceptable - but sanctions is IMO a reasonable approach - until the pandemic is declared over. And it aint over yet - and it aint going away.   This will be the contentious issues going forward - mandatory treatment, and sanctions.

May I suggest you watch the movie 'Contagion' - that is what would happen if Covid becomes as bad as they first predicted.  But so far the vaccines and isolation has worked in that the numbers of ICU cases and deaths would be a lot higher if they had not developed vaccines and did no social isolation. Unless you have some accredited medical study that shows the vaccines and isolation made no difference.

Sending a kid to jail for nothing is an horrible thing to say.

Otherwise I agree with some of your points but yeah, of course, not most of them. Most important point, vaccinating kids and young healthy people simply makes no sense and will make no difference and we have no knowledge of the long term effects. Don't fancy to get back on the subject of transmission (so impossible immunity via vaccination), harmess virus for these guys (and natural immunity when infected taken away by vaccination), etc... I have already said all my views on that...

[Bob20]

2 minutes ago, Manu said:

You have a very strange concept of "ignoring" mister Bob... You just can't help it, can you?

When you buy a car, do you expect the product to be safe? When I have trouble breathing, I buy a product from Big Pharma, it is a commercial exchange, I pay for it so I expect my product to be safe and effective, not dangerous and useless. Not you?

Alright, you go to your pharmacy and perform a financial transaction for a product.

I guess no advice required from the "experts" that you so dispise. 

If you ever require expert advice and care, I suggest a different attitude. Or maybe you prefer to display that on YouTube when it's nearly too late, like many others?

Nobody in the medical field will see medical care as a pure business transaction.

But your way of thinking gives us a true insight.

[Manu]

8 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Another conspiracy theory.

And no big pharma are not corrupt. I used to work for Astra Zeneca. I know it to be a decent company with strong values. They do a lot for third world countries often incurring a loss because of it. They were providing the vaccine at cost price (although I think they are now making a small profit) and allowed the license to manufacture the vaccine to be given free to many other companies around the world. 

It is also working on a malaria vaccine (there will be virtually no profit to be had there either). It has provided millions of mosquito nets to African countries free of charge. It provided thousands to tonnes of rice seeds with vitamin A included to alleviate eyesight problems which were rampant across Africa.

Conspiracy theory, again? So you did not check...

And those are also conspiracy theorises against Big Pharma (sic!)...

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-largest-health-care-fraud-settlement-its-history

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/johnsonandjohnson-cancer/

Need some more? Well do your own research, I give up trying to make just a simple point there.

[Rookiescot]

5 minutes ago, Manu said:

Sending a kid to jail for nothing is an horrible thing to say.

Otherwise I agree with some of your points but yeah, of course, not most of them. Most important point, vaccinating kids and young healthy people simply makes no sense and will make no difference and we have no knowledge of the long term effects. Don't fancy to get back on the subject of transmission (so impossible immunity via vaccination), harmess virus for these guys (and natural immunity when infected taken away by vaccination), etc... I have already said all my views on that...

But he is not being sent to jail is he? That was simply another straw man you made in order to conflate people who are vaccinated with Nazi's. 

Society decides what punishment fits what crime. Anti vaxers now claiming victim status is not going to receive much of a warm reception from the vast majority who have done the right thing by getting vaccinated.

So the 18 year old will not be going to jail. He might however be told he cant go to that music festival he wanted to go to because of HIS decision to not get vaccinated.

[Manu]

4 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

Alright, you go to your pharmacy and perform a financial transaction for a product.

I guess no advice required from the "experts" that you so dispise. 

If you ever require expert advice and care, I suggest a different attitude. Or maybe you prefer to display that on YouTube when it's nearly too late, like many others?

Nobody in the medical field will see medical care as a pure business transaction.

ha ha ha... good old mister bob... Where did I say that I do not trust ALL experts? Do you trust all experts all the same way? Conflict of interest, ever heard of it? Corruption, does it ever happen in your world (corrution is as old as human beings my good old Bob)? Not even mentioning competence... So am I so bad just to question things that are proven time after time certainly to be worth questioning at least?

Quote

But your way of thinking gives us a true insight.

You are forcing me constantly to get out of subjects now... tut tut tut, it is against the forum rules Bob. When is your "ignoring" starting by the way?

[Manu]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

But he is not being sent to jail is he? That was simply another straw man you made in order to conflate people who are vaccinated with Nazi's. 

Society decides what punishment fits what crime. Anti vaxers now claiming victim status is not going to receive much of a warm reception from the vast majority who have done the right thing by getting vaccinated.

So the 18 year old will not be going to jail. He might however be told he cant go to that music festival he wanted to go to because of HIS decision to not get vaccinated.

My original comment was the answer to Aussiebob who clearly comptemplate to send everyone not vaccinated evntually to jail.I quote:

Quote

I dont agree with mandates - but I do agree with enforcing consequences on those who chose to not vaccinate.  They cant have their cake and eat it too.  The herd has rules and this is one the herd has implemented. Dont like it, then leave the herd - isolation, unemployment, no travel, fines, jail, etc.