News Forum - Health Ministry warns people to get vaccinated or face possible restrictions

[Khunmark]

1 hour ago, Bob20 said:

Just quickly:

According to the latest research there isn't much difference (if any) between the chance of transmitting the virus from or to a vaccinated or unvaccinated person. For catching and spreading the virus both are virtually the same.

The main difference is the risk to yourself.

When catching the virus, a vaccinated person has a much reduced chance of ending up in hospital and an even more reduced chance of dying.

We see this in the stats because most that end up in severe condition in hospital or die are the unvaccinated.

The other difference is that the unvaccinated claim to make their own choice, but lay the bill for the consequences at the door of society. Because they make an individual choice, for which we pay collectively. And while they fill hospital wards, others are faced with delays or cancellations of treatment.

In that, it is not much different from smoking etc. which increases chances of health problems, but for that at least they contribute extra in added taxes.

But are we as a society okay with someone's choice against a vaccine, to see them roam free and take their chances, and to then see them taking countless hospital beds preventing others from required care, and should society pay their hospital bill and medication, when the majority have taken the risk of the jab for the good of society (and themselves)?

These are difficult matters.

Personally I'm all for choice and not for forced vaccination. But in my opinion free choice comes with accepting the consequences of that choice.

This would be all well and good if the those hellbent on not getting the vaccine had the courage of their convictions. Sadly too many of them present at hospitals wanting treatment from the same health professionals they mock and despise.

[Bob20]

4 minutes ago, Khunmark said:

This would be all well and good if the those hellbent on not getting the vaccine had the courage of their convictions. Sadly too many of them present at hospitals wanting treatment from the same health professionals they mock and despise.

Yes, that's my point (and the subject of the topic). So when the government is talking about restrictions for the unvaccinated, I hope they will make them face the consequences of their free choice.

[Khunmark]

8 hours ago, billywillyjones said:

The fact of the matter is states often abuse their power.  If you are naive enough to believe that all states are acting in the best interests of you then go ahead and keep dreaming.  You sound like you are reading out of a Political Science 101 textbook. 

States do often abuse their power, this is not a zero some argument. Sadly, the ones often on the receiving end of these abuses are minority groups. Requiring people who work in certain industries to be vaccinated to keep their jobs and access particular services is not an abuse of power, it is simply a recognition that there is no surge capacity built into hospital system.

[billywillyjones]

15 hours ago, Khunmark said:

States do often abuse their power, this is not a zero some argument. Sadly, the ones often on the receiving end of these abuses are minority groups. Requiring people who work in certain industries to be vaccinated to keep their jobs and access particular services is not an abuse of power, it is simply a recognition that there is no surge capacity built into hospital system.

Really.  So now it is about surge capacity.  Formerly it was about the vaccine preventing Covid then when that failed it was about the vaccine protecting you from the hospital? And for how long?  Recent studies are indicating the vaccine's protection is very short lived?  And what about obese people are they not clogging up hospital beds with preconditions?  Should they be told to lose weight or lose their jobs?

[billywillyjones]

18 hours ago, Bob20 said:

Just quickly:

According to the latest research there isn't much difference (if any) between the chance of transmitting the virus from or to a vaccinated or unvaccinated person. For catching and spreading the virus both are virtually the same.

The main difference is the risk to yourself.

When catching the virus, a vaccinated person has a much reduced chance of ending up in hospital and an even more reduced chance of dying.

We see this in the stats because most that end up in severe condition in hospital or die are the unvaccinated.

The other difference is that the unvaccinated claim to make their own choice, but lay the bill for the consequences at the door of society. Because they make an individual choice, for which we pay collectively. And while they fill hospital wards, others are faced with delays or cancellations of treatment.

In that, it is not much different from smoking etc. which increases chances of health problems, but for that at least they contribute extra in added taxes.

But are we as a society okay with someone's choice against a vaccine, to see them roam free and take their chances, and to then see them taking countless hospital beds preventing others from required care, and should society pay their hospital bill and medication, when the majority have taken the risk of the jab for the good of society (and themselves)?

These are difficult matters.

Personally I'm all for choice and not for forced vaccination. But in my opinion free choice comes with accepting the consequences of that choice.

Good points but what you fail to recoginize is that vaccinated are also winding up in hospitals.  And recent studies are showing the protection offered by the vaccine wanes.  So what then?

Everything in life is a risk/beneift analysis.  If we examine the numbers and you are a person with an uncompromised immune system and have actually made the effort to watch your diet and weight and stay in good physical condition the risks from this virus are quite small.  And if you are young and in good shape it is very small.  So what is driving this fear?

Edited November 19, 2021 by billywillyjones

[Bob20]

5 minutes ago, billywillyjones said:

Good points but what you fail to recoginize is that vaccinated are also winding up in hospitals.  And recent studies are showing the protection offered by the vaccine wanes.  So what then?

Everything in life is a risk/beneift analysis.  If we examine the numbers and you are a person with an uncompromised immune system and have actually made the effort to watch your diet and weight and stay in good physical condition the risks from this virus are quite small.  And if you are young and in good shape it is very small.  So what is driving this fear?

No fear. Just analysis.

Yes, some of the vaccinated end up in hospital too, as the vaccines aren't 100% effective. But they are only a fraction of the total. And to address the waning of the vaccine, they can take a booster.

The unvaccinated, fit to not, are more than 90% of the ones filling the hospitals. If not taking the vaccine is a conscious choice, they should accept full responsibility for what follows.

[billywillyjones]

Just now, Bob20 said:

No fear. Just analysis.

Yes, some of the vaccinated end up in hospital too, as the vaccines aren't 100% effective. But they are only a fraction of the total. And to address the waning of the vaccine, they can take a booster.

The unvaccinated, fit to not, are more than 90% of the ones filling the hospitals. If not taking the vaccine is a conscious choice, they should accept full responsibility for what follows.

Okay but you need to point out the age groups in hospital as well as how many have preconidtions.

Do you believe it is a good risk/benefit analysis for a young person with a strong immune system and no preconditions to vaccinate with a mRNA vaccine multiple times?  Is that what the data is telling you?

[Bob20]

40 minutes ago, billywillyjones said:

Okay but you need to point out the age groups in hospital as well as how many have preconidtions.

Do you believe it is a good risk/benefit analysis for a young person with a strong immune system and no preconditions to vaccinate with a mRNA vaccine multiple times?  Is that what the data is telling you?

What the data is telling us, is that the risk of taking the vaccine is negligible, and the protection huge. Yes, it wanes, but natural protection wanes also if you survive an infection.

The vaccine hesitants or refusers keep shifting their arguments. 

In the meantime they could get a simple jab to limit their own risk (because nobody knows for sure whether they will be affected, just look at the ones on YouTube regretting their choice when the oxygen dries up). And they limit their hospital use and cost to society at the same time.

I still defend your right to say "no". But then accept the consequences.

[Griff1315]

No vaccine 

No visa is coming....

 

 

[Shark]

2 hours ago, Griff1315 said:

No vaccine 

No visa is coming....

finally!

[billywillyjones]

On 11/19/2021 at 10:25 AM, Bob20 said:

What the data is telling us, is that the risk of taking the vaccine is negligible, and the protection huge. Yes, it wanes, but natural protection wanes also if you survive an infection.

The vaccine hesitants or refusers keep shifting their arguments. 

In the meantime they could get a simple jab to limit their own risk (because nobody knows for sure whether they will be affected, just look at the ones on YouTube regretting their choice when the oxygen dries up). And they limit their hospital use and cost to society at the same time.

I still defend your right to say "no". But then accept the consequences.

The data differs greatly by age group.  How can you say the risk is negligible there have been many recorded side effects and no long term testing. You seem to group everyone together regardless of age or health.  Review the data for the young healthy adults and you will see big differences and far less incentive.

[Khunmark]

On 11/19/2021 at 1:16 PM, billywillyjones said:

Really.  So now it is about surge capacity.  Formerly it was about the vaccine preventing Covid then when that failed it was about the vaccine protecting you from the hospital? And for how long?  Recent studies are indicating the vaccine's protection is very short lived?  And what about obese people are they not clogging up hospital beds with preconditions?  Should they be told to lose weight or lose their jobs?

It’s pretty easy to take pot shots when you’re sitting in the bleachers. If you were running the show the hospital system would be in complete disarray, medical staff would be leaving in their droves and the sick would be dying in the streets due to an orchestrated policy of medical maleficence. There’s a very good reason why responsible governments reject your ideas. As for your assertion concerning the obese, you demonstrate little understanding about the condition of obesity and even less about the concept of surge capacity.

[billywillyjones]

9 minutes ago, Khunmark said:

It’s pretty easy to take pot shots when you’re sitting in the bleachers. If you were running the show the hospital system would be in complete disarray, medical staff would be leaving in their droves and the sick would be dying in the streets due to an orchestrated policy of medical maleficence. There’s a very good reason why responsible governments reject your ideas. As for your assertion concerning the obese, you demonstrate little understanding about the condition of obesity and even less about the concept of surge capacity.

Lol.  The only one I see taking potshots from the bleachers is you  and you are shooting blanks.  How about presenting a counter argument rather than vague generalities.  

Edited November 20, 2021 by billywillyjones

[mickkotlarski]

14 minutes ago, billywillyjones said:

Lol.  The only one I see taking potshots from the bleachers is you  and you are shooting blanks.  How about presenting a counter argument rather than vague generalities.  

Before getting the Pfizer vaccine I was concerned about my own medical condition namely blood vessels as I have minor varicose veins issues. Two physicians cleared me as my fitness level is very good. However folk with diabetes, circulatory/repiratory issues, pregnant women and obese people are in the front line of both vaccine dangers as well as the kung flu itself. 

The people that recovered after contracting covid19 were young and active people in good health. The opposite of the Spanish flu. This in itself speaks volumes.

Unfortunately long term data is not available so all we have to go by is what is confirmed for now. 

I'm looking at both sides of the argument and both have a viable logic.

But ALL will be redundant in late 2023 (perhaps) when an actual vaccine that kills Covid19 is distributed.

[Shark]

14 hours ago, mickkotlarski said:

But ALL will be redundant in late 2023 (perhaps) when an actual vaccine that kills Covid19 is distributed.

until everyone gets vaccinated that can't happen, since the mutations happening in not vaccinated bodies can't be predicted upon - So, I don't see how 'freedom of choice' will completely work perhaps there will be 1 country in the world where all the not vaccinated go-to or these might be deported to Space... I don't know.

[BlueSphinx]

7 minutes ago, Shark said:

until everyone gets vaccinated that can't happen, since the mutations happening in not vaccinated bodies can't be predicted upon - So, I don't see how 'freedom of choice' will completely work perhaps there will be 1 country in the world where all the not vaccinated go-to or these might be deported to Space... I don't know.

Can you provide a link to back-up your statement that 'mutations are happening in not vaccinated bodies'.  Many scientists are stating the exact opposite, i.e. that it is the pressure on the virus through mass-vaccination that is driving the emergence of new variants.

[BigHewer]

One post removed. Spirited discourse is a great thing, but keep it civil, folks. Let’s not cross the line of referring to the mental health of those we disagree with.

Thanks

Moderator

[Bob20]

56 minutes ago, Shark said:

until everyone gets vaccinated that can't happen, since the mutations happening in not vaccinated bodies can't be predicted upon - So, I don't see how 'freedom of choice' will completely work perhaps there will be 1 country in the world where all the not vaccinated go-to or these might be deported to Space... I don't know.

 

15 hours ago, mickkotlarski said:

Before getting the Pfizer vaccine I was concerned about my own medical condition namely blood vessels as I have minor varicose veins issues. Two physicians cleared me as my fitness level is very good. However folk with diabetes, circulatory/repiratory issues, pregnant women and obese people are in the front line of both vaccine dangers as well as the kung flu itself. 

The people that recovered after contracting covid19 were young and active people in good health. The opposite of the Spanish flu. This in itself speaks volumes.

Unfortunately long term data is not available so all we have to go by is what is confirmed for now. 

I'm looking at both sides of the argument and both have a viable logic.

But ALL will be redundant in late 2023 (perhaps) when an actual vaccine that kills Covid19 is distributed.

 

16 hours ago, Khunmark said:

It’s pretty easy to take pot shots when you’re sitting in the bleachers. If you were running the show the hospital system would be in complete disarray, medical staff would be leaving in their droves and the sick would be dying in the streets due to an orchestrated policy of medical maleficence. There’s a very good reason why responsible governments reject your ideas. As for your assertion concerning the obese, you demonstrate little understanding about the condition of obesity and even less about the concept of surge capacity.

The reason for the restrictions is the pressure on the health system and society. It's not about variants and it's not about oppression of a group.

The unvaccinated constitute more than 90% of the hospitalisations and deaths in countries with high vaccination rate. This keeps hospitals full and prevents others from being treated, where in most countries there were waiting lists already anyway. Then there's the cost to society because of personal choice.

Yes, there is also the risk of another variant, mainly in the unvaccinated (https://www.healthline.com/health-news/unvaccinated-people-are-increasing-the-chances-for-more-coronavirus-variants-heres-how), but that is not the reason behind it. 

Many countries want to get back to some kind of normality, and when they let go of restrictions, the unvaccinated continue to create the majority of the problems. That is why new restrictions are imposed upon them specifically.

[billywillyjones]

15 hours ago, mickkotlarski said:

Before getting the Pfizer vaccine I was concerned about my own medical condition namely blood vessels as I have minor varicose veins issues. Two physicians cleared me as my fitness level is very good. However folk with diabetes, circulatory/repiratory issues, pregnant women and obese people are in the front line of both vaccine dangers as well as the kung flu itself. 

The people that recovered after contracting covid19 were young and active people in good health. The opposite of the Spanish flu. This in itself speaks volumes.

Unfortunately long term data is not available so all we have to go by is what is confirmed for now. 

I'm looking at both sides of the argument and both have a viable logic.

But ALL will be redundant in late 2023 (perhaps) when an actual vaccine that kills Covid19 is distributed.

Good points.  Individuals must assess their personal risk based on their own health and it is understandable why someone with preconditions etc. may wish to get vaccinated with a certain vaccine.  However, those promoting a blanket vaccination for everyone regardless of health or risk assessment is absolute madness.  Will babies and toddlers be next?

[Shark]

3 hours ago, billywillyjones said:

Good points.  Individuals must assess their personal risk based on their own health and it is understandable why someone with preconditions etc. may wish to get vaccinated with a certain vaccine.  However, those promoting a blanket vaccination for everyone regardless of health or risk assessment is absolute madness.  Will babies and toddlers be next?

It's not your own health neither your personal risk, this is the whole thing I start having a problem with. It's your personal choice but it's public health risk therefore I'm all for what foreign countries are doing and what the signs appear that Thailand is going to follow up to.

I've been vaccinated as a baby and a toddler for many things, I didn't know the contents, neither did my parents of the vaccines and here I am many years later... still alive and healthy. Weird huh? Perhaps this wouldn't even be a bad thing with Covid-19 more like how other countries are doing it, choice you have - Not to vaccinate fine but live a solitude life as a result of this or pay heavy 30 euro+ for a on-the-spot PCR for every bar/restaurant/whatever you want to enter - It's already like this in some countries. Financially these people will be demotivated to keep their ideals alive that plus most likely loosing employment as you can't do the PCR everyday to enter your work. But again choices. I'm not about taking away choice, I'm about protecting the world this goes beyond personal health.

[Bob20]

19 minutes ago, Shark said:

It's not your own health neither your personal risk, this is the whole thing I start having a problem with. It's your personal choice but it's public health risk therefore I'm all for what foreign countries are doing and what the signs appear that Thailand is going to follow up to.

I've been vaccinated as a baby and a toddler for many things, I didn't know the contents, neither did my parents of the vaccines and here I am many years later... still alive and healthy. Weird huh? Perhaps this wouldn't even be a bad thing with Covid-19 more like how other countries are doing it, choice you have - Not to vaccinate fine but live a solitude life as a result of this or pay heavy 30 euro+ for a on-the-spot PCR for every bar/restaurant/whatever you want to enter - It's already like this in some countries. Financially these people will be demotivated to keep their ideals alive that plus most likely loosing employment as you can't do the PCR everyday to enter your work. But again choices. I'm not about taking away choice, I'm about protecting the world this goes beyond personal health.

Absolutely correct.

Lots of people know their rights and are boring our socks off by telling us.

But with rights come duties and consequences. They always forget that bit...

[mickkotlarski]

9 hours ago, Shark said:

until everyone gets vaccinated that can't happen, since the mutations happening in not vaccinated bodies can't be predicted upon - So, I don't see how 'freedom of choice' will completely work perhaps there will be 1 country in the world where all the not vaccinated go-to or these might be deported to Space... I don't know.

Sorry but first statement doesn't make sense. Do you mean to say that research on a full proof non emergency vaccine will stop until every person on the planet is vaccinated? Or that mutations are only limited to non vaccinated? Physicians and researchers have mentioned that part of the mutation is the virus altering to combat vaccines. Vaccinated people have contracted the virus and spread it to others.

Don't get more wrong. Getting the emergency vaccines is one of the better options for now. Its definitely lowered the death rate and taken stress from over pressured medical facilities world wide. The other is governments are forcing people to comply while big pharma gets paid billions without repercussions. Get vaccinated or face the music. Good reason to follow suit.

But it hasn't stopped the spread. Even this week alone some European nations are reverting back into lockdown while others are making plans to do so. Yet the % of vaccinated is high.

It's sad to hear that people have a problem with freedom of choice for something that isn't fool proof. Why discriminate against them further. Sorry old boy but this Nazi style brand those skeptical then put them on another planet is plain wrong.

Compulsory vaccination should come into affect for a time when a proven vaccine is available. Then it can adhered to as Yellow Fever, Polio and Tetanus.

I remain pro emergency vaccine but won't rubbish people that have doubts even if I disagree.

[riclag]

To take a Thai Civil service exam  one of the requirements besides the fee. is to be vaccinated or take a covid test prior to entrance at the exam facility .

My daughter just got her first shot of Mvax ,on  Sunday the 14th of Nov.  Guess what, the second shot is given the same day as the  Govt.CC exam , Dec. 12th.

The Govt isn't gonna budge and at first the Private wasn't either.  We asked the Private to extend the date ,afterwards they agreed.

My point is  anybody can have the china virus . The  Thai Govt in their rush to be idiots  should require  all (staff and  applicants ) at the exam site , to be tested, regardless of vax status. !

She's gonna get a covid test so she can try again to enter the Govt sector job enrollment !

BS on them

 

[mickkotlarski]

7 hours ago, Shark said:

It's not your own health neither your personal risk, this is the whole thing I start having a problem with. It's your personal choice but it's public health risk therefore I'm all for what foreign countries are doing and what the signs appear that Thailand is going to follow up to.

I've been vaccinated as a baby and a toddler for many things, I didn't know the contents, neither did my parents of the vaccines and here I am many years later... still alive and healthy. Weird huh? Perhaps this wouldn't even be a bad thing with Covid-19 more like how other countries are doing it, choice you have - Not to vaccinate fine but live a solitude life as a result of this or pay heavy 30 euro+ for a on-the-spot PCR for every bar/restaurant/whatever you want to enter - It's already like this in some countries. Financially these people will be demotivated to keep their ideals alive that plus most likely loosing employment as you can't do the PCR everyday to enter your work. But again choices. I'm not about taking away choice, I'm about protecting the world this goes beyond personal health.

It does make sense for people with preexisting conditions to have a medical examination. Very few serious side affects happen with the emergency vaccines. Most of these are temporary such as lack of energy for a day or two or soreness at the injection site but there have been people hospitalized and even fatalities (although very rare).

The vaccines you refer to in your childhood were actual vaccines such as Polio and Rubella etc. They protected and prevented.

PCR tests will still need to be performed for both vaccinated and unvaccinated alike as both can still spread the dreaded virus.  

I can see difficulties here Shark as even today Thaiger had an article about Cathay Pacific pilots that were vaccinated as per company protocol but broke restrictions in social distancing. They lost their jobs. Understandably.

Again I must stress that I'm pro emergency vaccine but these are not miracle virus combatants. Covid is still spreading but I will vaccinate again next year to lessen the effects of hospitalization and mortality.But I'm not fooling myself that I'm now bullet proof protection against covid and still wear masks, wash hands and practice social distancing. 

[Bob20]

2 minutes ago, mickkotlarski said:

It does make sense for people with preexisting conditions to have a medical examination. Very few serious side affects happen with the emergency vaccines. Most of these are temporary such as lack of energy for a day or two or soreness at the injection site but there have been people hospitalized and even fatalities (although very rare).

The vaccines you refer to in your childhood were actual vaccines such as Polio and Rubella etc. They protected and prevented.

PCR tests will still need to be performed for both vaccinated and unvaccinated alike as both can still spread the dreaded virus.  

I can see difficulties here Shark as even today Thaiger had an article about Cathay Pacific pilots that were vaccinated as per company protocol but broke restrictions in social distancing. They lost their jobs. Understandably.

Again I must stress that I'm pro emergency vaccine but these are not miracle virus combatants. Covid is still spreading but I will vaccinate again next year to lessen the effects of hospitalization and mortality.But I'm not fooling myself that I'm now bullet proof protection against covid and still wear masks, wash hands and practice social distancing. 

Great attitude! Just one small thing, some are not given under emergency approval anymore, but are fully registered and approved.