News Forum - Police say no live ammunition was used against protesters in Bangkok yesterday

[Mamachigawa]

3 hours ago, Stardust said:

The victim they are talking is in the chula hospital and the bullet went through the lungs and liver, I never heard a rubber bullet goes in and other side out.

Sound shot by a sniper from elevated position then

[Stonker]

15 minutes ago, Mamachigawa said:

Sound shot by a sniper from elevated position then

The only thing clear so far is that there were at least two casualties taken to hospital from two separate incidents.

[SkipsPa]

5 hours ago, Benroon said:

A friend an ex marine was shot by a rubber bullet in NI - he said it was the most painful thing he had ever experienced !! Obv better than a metal one though !

An ex British soldier who spent some time in NI told me they sometimes put rubber bullets in a fridge to harden them a bit more!

[Soidog]

5 hours ago, Benroon said:

A friend an ex marine was shot by a rubber bullet in NI - he said it was the most painful thing he had ever experienced !! Obv better than a metal one though !

The term “rubber bullet” gives the impression of a soft bullet that is safe. In reality, a rubber bullet or “Baton round” as its correctly known is extremely dangerous and has caused many fatalities and severe injuries around the world. In addition, rubber bullets are not meant to be fired directly at protesters unless fired below the waist, they are also meant to be fired at the ground or what is termed “Skip fired” . The shape of the “bullet” and technique of firing at the ground are all aimed at reducing the velocity of the projectile. That said, the muzzle velocity of a typical baton round is like standing in front of a pace bowler and then firing it at 3 to 4 times the normal speed of a cricket ball. If you have ever been hit by a cricket ball from a fast bowler you will know how much that hurts. Firing from a close distance or directly above the waist where vital organs or the head is, can and does result  in severe injury or death. They are an horrific tool and should be banned from use in a civilian situation. 

[mickkotlarski]

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

No I think you need to watch the video again. The guy with the shotgun appears to fire into the road.

At the start of the clip yes. But with subsequent later shots the trajectory of guns angles don't seem to point down. Hard  to say at which point the actual incident happened.

[mickkotlarski]

1 hour ago, Stonker said:

Well, this is a screenshot taken from that video at the point when one riot gun was being fired - you can see the muzzle flash.

The only thing he could have intended to hit must have been at least 3 or 4 metres tall.

Possibly but it wasn't the only round fired.

[mickkotlarski]

1 hour ago, Mamachigawa said:

Sound shot by a sniper from elevated position then

Not to be a conspiracy theorist but you never know. But if it was a sniper the ballistics specialists could easily tell. 

[Benroon]

5 hours ago, Soidog said:

The term “rubber bullet” gives the impression of a soft bullet that is safe. In reality, a rubber bullet or “Baton round” as its correctly known is extremely dangerous and has caused many fatalities and severe injuries around the world. In addition, rubber bullets are not meant to be fired directly at protesters unless fired below the waist, they are also meant to be fired at the ground or what is termed “Skip fired” . The shape of the “bullet” and technique of firing at the ground are all aimed at reducing the velocity of the projectile. That said, the muzzle velocity of a typical baton round is like standing in front of a pace bowler and then firing it at 3 to 4 times the normal speed of a cricket ball. If you have ever been hit by a cricket ball from a fast bowler you will know how much that hurts. Firing from a close distance or directly above the waist where vital organs or the head is, can and does result  in severe injury or death. They are an horrific tool and should be banned from use in a civilian situation. 

I had both cheek bones and nose rearranged by a fast bowler SD leading to staples in my face to hold it together and 3 operations, so I can comfortably assure you I can vouch for the pain levels ! 

I use to play at a decent level and thought I would play for ever, then a great coach told me the time to stop is when your first instinct is to take a step back, he was spot on! 

 

[Benroon]

5 hours ago, SkipsPa said:

An ex British soldier who spent some time in NI told me they sometimes put rubber bullets in a fridge to harden them a bit more!

Jesus !!! 

[gummy]

6 minutes ago, Benroon said:

Jesus !!! 

What, he is in the fridge also ?

[Soidog]

31 minutes ago, Benroon said:

I had both cheek bones and nose rearranged by a fast bowler SD leading to staples in my face to hold it together and 3 operations, so I can comfortably assure you I can vouch for the pain levels ! 

I use to play at a decent level and thought I would play for ever, then a great coach told me the time to stop is when your first instinct is to take a step back, he was spot on! 

Wow, that sounds more than a painful experience. I’ve also played cricket (not at any serious level) and felt a few knocks on elbows, shoulders and thighs (before the days of extended padding! Imagine a cricket ball coming at you and hitting you at 3 times the speed of your average pace bowler. Nasty stuff

[Stonker]

6 hours ago, mickkotlarski said:

Possibly but it wasn't the only round fired.

I never suggested it was - I was replying to the assertion that "they shoot with intension to hit them", which this shows is clearly not always the case.

[Stonker]

7 hours ago, SkipsPa said:

An ex British soldier who spent some time in NI told me they sometimes put rubber bullets in a fridge to harden them a bit more!

Absolute apochryphal nonsense.

There are plenty of nasty tricks, but this isn't one of them - all it would do is make the round more likely to misfire or the bullet to split, particularly given the temperatures when fired.

How long do you think it would be between taking the round out of the fridge and to use for it to warm up to ambient temperature - try to think how long it takes an ice cube to melt once you take it out of the fridge.

 

[mickkotlarski]

2 minutes ago, Stonker said:

I never suggested it was - I was replying to the assertion that "they shoot with intension to hit them", which this shows is clearly not always the case.

No accusations Stonker. Just considering all options.  If this event happened in Myanmar we wouldn't be discussing any options and debates are settled.

[mickkotlarski]

2 minutes ago, Stonker said:

Absolute apochryphal nonsense.

There are plenty of nasty tricks, but this isn't one of them - all it would do is make the round more likely to misfire or the bullet to split, particularly given the temperatures when fired.

How long do you think it would be between taking the round out of the fridge and to use for it to warm up to ambient temperature - try to think how long it takes an ice cube to melt once you take it out of the fridge.

I wondered if this point would be raised/called out.

[Stonker]

6 hours ago, mickkotlarski said:

Not to be a conspiracy theorist but you never know. But if it was a sniper the ballistics specialists could easily tell. 

Sorry, but no they couldn't if the reports are correct - the round, whatever it was, had reportedly already exited the body at the back.

[mickkotlarski]

1 minute ago, Stonker said:

Sorry, but no they couldn't if the reports are correct - the round, whatever it was, had reportedly already exited the body at the back.

So its definite that the body was pierced and bullet not lodged?

If so then it does sound more like a live round.  With rubber bullets this deadly or live ammo being used after all, this is a message for the protestors not to get close!

One thing for sure. It was a very aggressive warning.

[Stonker]

7 hours ago, Soidog said:

The term “rubber bullet” gives the impression of a soft bullet that is safe. In reality, a rubber bullet or “Baton round” as its correctly known is extremely dangerous and has caused many fatalities and severe injuries around the world. In addition, rubber bullets are not meant to be fired directly at protesters unless fired below the waist, they are also meant to be fired at the ground or what is termed “Skip fired” . The shape of the “bullet” and technique of firing at the ground are all aimed at reducing the velocity of the projectile. That said, the muzzle velocity of a typical baton round is like standing in front of a pace bowler and then firing it at 3 to 4 times the normal speed of a cricket ball. If you have ever been hit by a cricket ball from a fast bowler you will know how much that hurts. Firing from a close distance or directly above the waist where vital organs or the head is, can and does result  in severe injury or death. They are an horrific tool and should be banned from use in a civilian situation. 

Absolutely and totally wrong on all levels, both in intent and factually - I'll do the 'facts' bit in a separate comment as it's less important.

Rubber bullets are neither 'safe' nor perfect, although they're constantly being improved in terms of both safety and effect, but they're a vital mid-point between nothing and live rounds.

Take away rubber bullets and all you do is take away a response level for the police  so that once negotiation doesn't work they have no option but to resort to live rounds because there's literally nothing else available that they can carry - there are no other options.

Sadly, Star Trek's 'phasers on stun' and Spiderman's 'sticky net' aren't available as yet, so what else is there?

Tazers are short range only, and easily deflected with a shield or dustbin lid.

CS or other gas is equally controversial and affects everyone in the area, particularly those least prepared.

Water cannon are by nature large vehicles which can't be used in a lot of areas.

Take away rubber bullets and all the police have left are live rounds.

[Stonker]

23 minutes ago, mickkotlarski said:

So its definite that the body was pierced and bullet not lodged?

If so then it does sound more like a live round.  With rubber bullets this deadly or live ammo being used after all, this is a message for the protestors not to get close!

One thing for sure. It was a very aggressive warning.

That's what the reports so far say - there were at least three serious hospitalised casualties, including two at this location, and it looks increasingly as if the one in the video shown here wasn't the most serious one.

It's far from "for sure" that this was "a very aggressive warning", at least by the police.

In all the recent cases over the last couple of years despite people jumping on the outrage bus, all the shootings involving live rounds have been by civilians targeting the protesters, not police.

[mickkotlarski]

8 minutes ago, Stonker said:

That's what the reports so far say - there were at least three serious hospitalised casualties, including two at this location, and it looks increasingly as if the one in the video shown here wasn't the most serious one.

It's far from "for sure" that this was "a very aggressive warning", at least by the police.

In all the recent cases over the last couple of years despite people jumping on the outrage bus, all the shootings involving live rounds have been by civilians targeting the protesters, not police.

This is the other suspicion I have. Could a third party be involved? It would be very easy to discredit the police and sway public opinion. Its not exactly unheard of.

Many of these protestors are aggressive little twats being manipulated and setting public property ablaze (as done recently) is far from a peaceful call for democracy. How often around the world have protestors been interviewed at the scene and couldn't give answers on why they riot apart from a generalized opinion that the opposition is bad.

But it was an aggressive warning even though the police have exercised restraint.

[Stonker]

8 hours ago, SkipsPa said:

An ex British soldier who spent some time in NI told me they sometimes put rubber bullets in a fridge to harden them a bit more!

To return to this briefly, I've dug out a souvenir I had from a firearms demo I ran quite a while ago.

  That's a standard issue British Army plastic bullet / baton round embedded in a standard issue (70's / 80's) British Army steel helmet, fitted with a riot control visor.

The holes in the visor are from a shotgun round (used in Hong Kong, but not UK / Northern Ireland), which only left small dents in the helmet.

The plastic bullet hit the helmet where it was already holed / split from a 5.56mm Armalite round which was why it penetrated the helmet, but it shows the force behind it, fired from a range of about eight or ten metres.

That's the view from the inside (and of my rather dry lawn).

They're not designed to equate to throwing wet sponges at someone in the fairground.

They're designed to hurt and incapacitate, but not to cause permanent injury or kill although very occasionally and very unfortunately they do.

They're a half-way stage between using a megaphone to ask protesters to disperse and using live rounds, and without them there'd be a lot more dead bodies until someone comes up with a better alternative.

[Stonker]

10 hours ago, Soidog said:

 The term “rubber bullet” gives the impression of a soft bullet that is safe.

Back to this, as there's so much here that's between badly misleading and completely factually incorrect.

10 hours ago, Soidog said:

In reality, a rubber bullet or “Baton round” as its correctly known is extremely dangerous and has caused many fatalities and severe injuries around the world.

No, baton rounds are the British Army term for a particular type of rubber or plastic bullet (see my pics above for an example of an L5) but they're not synonymous and that's important as the RTP seldom use baton rounds and none were used here.

The correct umbrella term is actually 'non-lethal projectile'.

They can certainly be dangerous, but a lot depends on the type used and how they're used.

In 22 years in Northern Ireland (1973 - 2005) the British Army and the RUC (Northern Irish Police) fired over 125,000 plastic and rubber bullets (baton rounds) killing 17 civilians, eight of them children or young teenagers.

In 18 months in the West Bank and Gaza Strip (August 1988 - March 1990) the Israeli Army killed 128 civilians with plastic bullets.

10 hours ago, Soidog said:

In addition, rubber bullets are not meant to be fired directly at protesters unless fired below the waist, they are also meant to be fired at the ground or what is termed “Skip fired” . The shape of the “bullet” and technique of firing at the ground are all aimed at reducing the velocity of the projectile.

That's badly, badly wrong and way out of date.

Bouncing rubber baton rounds off the ground was the tactic of choice when they were first used in the early 70's but it was considered far too dangerous as it was indiscriminate as it was impossible to fire accurately or target the right people and it went out by the late 70's. It has since been banned by the UN and all rounds should always be aimed directly at the target.

The target area should be only the lower legs but this often doesn't work as seasoned rioters simply wear footballers' shin guards under their trousers making them ineffective.

10 hours ago, Soidog said:

That said, the muzzle velocity of a typical baton round is like standing in front of a pace bowler and then firing it at 3 to 4 times the normal speed of a cricket ball.

A typical baton round travels at 60 metres / 200 feet per second while a fast bowler will bowl at around 30-40 metres per second, so around 1.5 to 2 times the speed.

10 hours ago, Soidog said:

Firing from a close distance or directly above the waist where vital organs or the head is, can and does result  in severe injury or death.

So what's the alternative if someone deliberately comes too close to the police, particularly if they're being aggressive?

Without rubber bullets the only options are either to do nothing, run out to them (try running in riot gear) or to shoot them.

10 hours ago, Soidog said:

They are an horrific tool and should be banned from use in a civilian situation.

So what else do you suggest?

If you can think of a better alternative you'll be up there with Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos, as no-one else has managed to.

[Stardust]

4 hours ago, mickkotlarski said:

This is the other suspicion I have. Could a third party be involved? It would be very easy to discredit the police and sway public opinion. Its not exactly unheard of.

Many of these protestors are aggressive little twats being manipulated and setting public property ablaze (as done recently) is far from a peaceful call for democracy. How often around the world have protestors been interviewed at the scene and couldn't give answers on why they riot apart from a generalized opinion that the opposition is bad.

But it was an aggressive warning even though the police have exercised restraint.

I guess you forgot the history of Thailand where the gov ordered to shoot unarmed civilians. I don't get this strange speculations because it is not the first time things like that happened. Please give one reason why it shouldn't be not the same as usual or before?!

[mickkotlarski]

12 minutes ago, Stardust said:

I guess you forgot the history of Thailand where the gov ordered to shoot unarmed civilians. I don't get this strange speculations because it is not the first time things like that happened. Please give one reason why it shouldn't be not the same as usual or before?!

Its just another possibility Stardust. The government doing the same again is also very realistic. Nothing decisive as the clip itself shows only part of the picture.

[mickkotlarski]

3 hours ago, Stonker said:

To return to this briefly, I've dug out a souvenir I had from a firearms demo I ran quite a while ago.

  That's a standard issue British Army plastic bullet / baton round embedded in a standard issue (70's / 80's) British Army steel helmet, fitted with a riot control visor.

The holes in the visor are from a shotgun round (used in Hong Kong, but not UK / Northern Ireland), which only left small dents in the helmet.

The plastic bullet hit the helmet where it was already holed / split from a 5.56mm Armalite round which was why it penetrated the helmet, but it shows the force behind it, fired from a range of about eight or ten metres.

That's the view from the inside (and of my rather dry lawn).

They're not designed to equate to throwing wet sponges at someone in the fairground.

They're designed to hurt and incapacitate, but not to cause permanent injury or kill although very occasionally and very unfortunately they do.

They're a half-way stage between using a megaphone to ask protesters to disperse and using live rounds, and without them there'd be a lot more dead bodies until someone comes up with a better alternative.

Every picture tells a story.