Man dies after receiving Sinovac vaccine in Phuket

[Stonker]

13 hours ago, SickBuffalo said:

Once we got the tests, they were expensive and prone to false positives, around 15%. If someone was recorded as having Covid, felt fine, and was killed by a bus within 30 days, that death was counted as "dying with Covid"

By who?

 

In what country?

[satpete]

one or more may die, but the question is how many will die without vaccine

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Stonker said:

No, it wasn't the "same experts", etc.

That's not correct.

WHO

No matter who was it, it was a lie. 

[JamesR]

2 hours ago, Stonker said:

By who?

In what country?

It happened in dreamland and proven by the chief pseudoscientist and resident nutter Dr Strangelove.

In fact no one has ever died of the vaccine/virus, they are all robot-actors from the TV series Westworld who can be rebuilt to pretend to die again so the pharma companies can make a wedge of money.  :-)

LOL

[vlad]

They won't answer that Satpete because if they say yes  Millions have been saved there admitting the vaccine works.

[satpete]

in Germany more than 80 millions residents we have about 43% of fully vaccinated
and about 60% with first jab and about 650 new infections only per last day

vaccine will not help  ???

okay, we do not have Sinovac
but very poor countries need any vaccine
helping 49% or 65%, better than nothing

 

Edited July 13, 2021 by satpete

[JohninDublin]

10 hours ago, Xaos said:

Same goes for ppl calling conspiracy theory card. It's the ppl who do 0 research, and only go by MSM.

So called CT go deep in to rabbit hole.

Term was invented by CIA or FBI when they shoot Kennedy, to discredit ppl who seek truth. 

 

5 hours ago, Stonker said:

No, it wasn't the "same experts", etc.

That's not correct.

 

10 hours ago, Xaos said:

Same goes for ppl calling conspiracy theory card. It's the ppl who do 0 research, and only go by MSM.

So called CT go deep in to rabbit hole.

Term was invented by CIA or FBI when they shoot Kennedy, to discredit ppl who seek truth. 

If you are opposed to something, then clearly you are "anti". I do not say that you do not have a right to hold a different opinion, but the anti-vaxxers have more than there fair share of nut-jobs. One example: the Bill Gates tracking microchip purportedly contained in it, according to some anti-vaxxers. If such a device existed, don't you think that the public would be buying it in droves to counter child abductions? There are currently over 500k open missing persons file in the US.

As for your comment, "Same goes for ppl calling conspiracy theory card. It's the ppl who do 0 research, and only go by MSM.", You've seen my posts which I think have pretty much undermined most, if not all your claims. I note you never respond to mine. Do I seem to you like someone "who do 0 research". Unlike you, I do not post false mocked up banners from an EU org to try to justify my claims. Unlike you, I am also very aware of how VAERS works. They are merely an unverifiable reporting system. That's why people have claimed to the site, that they caught Herpes from the Vax and that claim has been recorded. And in case you are unaware, MSM means Mainstream Media. and this would include right wing papers such as The Sun, Mail and Express in the UK.

There are people on this site who are at the moment, anti-vaxxers, and they give cogent reasons why they think like that. I might be wrong, but I think many of them are in the, "It's too early for me to make a decision" camp. I totally respect that. My initial thoughts were that I would wait a year before I would get mine, but the speed of the rollout and the proportionately very small number of serious events led me to conclude that I was in infinitely more danger from CV than I was from the Vax.

Both my wife and I have serious underlying medical conditions, and the prediction is that CV is going to be around for many years yet. I am not convinced of that. Regardless, when I die, which won't be too many years into the future, I don't want to die of CV because I failed to balance the risks for what they appear to be at present.

There is a chance that you might be right and I might be wrong, but of all the people who I have discussed this with on here, nobody comes anywhere near your level of misinformedness. I am not even sure the anti-vaxxers on here, give your posts any credibility.

[SickBuffalo]

6 hours ago, Stonker said:

By who?

In what country?

By any government or health authority given the job of counting the deaths.

Again, there was no way to separate out the primary cause of death in every case. All such authorities explicitly define that what they count are individuals who are believed to have had Covid (either by test or, before tests were widely available, observation) and who died within the following 30 days.

That is why the authorities always state "died with Covid", it is the media reports that convert that into "killed by Covid".

This is not a political position by the authorities. There is simply no other way to do it.
 

4 hours ago, JamesR said:

It happened in dreamland and proven by the chief pseudoscientist and resident nutter Dr Strangelove.

In fact no one has ever died of the vaccine/virus, they are all robot-actors from the TV series Westworld who can be rebuilt to pretend to die again so the pharma companies can make a wedge of money.

This is the problem. All over the world, people who believe they are intelligent leap upon anything they identify as an anti-vaxx statement. Actually, I am pro-vaxx and was stating a simple true fact that is agreed by all the official bodies collating the death stats.

People like you actually make the situation worse. You believe it is vital to pump up the figures and pretend that Covid is a higher threat than it actually. You hope that this will frighten people into doing the right thing, but people are smarter than you think. This sort of crude propaganda actually undermines trust.

Me calling out this reflexive inflation of the actual meaning of the stats is not me saying that no one has ever died of the virus. It is acknowledging the nuance so that we can all come around to sensible positions and stop acting as if this has to be a civil war.


 

Edited July 13, 2021 by SickBuffalo

[JohninDublin]

1 hour ago, SickBuffalo said:

People like you actually make the situation worse. You believe it is vital to pump up the figures and pretend that Covid is a higher threat than it actually. You hope that this will frighten people into doing the right thing, but people are smarter than you think. This sort of crude propaganda actually undermines trust.

Me calling out this reflexive inflation of the actual meaning of the stats is not me saying that no one has ever died of the virus. It is acknowledging the nuance so that we can all come around to sensible positions and stop acting as if this has to be a civil war.

 

Good post.

Just speaking for myself, I see anti-vaxxers as falling into two camps which I would call, "Evangelicals" and "Agnostics". I think the religious comparison is apt. The "E's" are trying to save us from the folly of our irreligious ways and want to persuade us that their belief system is the only true faith. If you do not follow their beliefs, you are damned. When you point out the lack of scientific evidence for their beliefs, they use spurious claims to manufacture some.

The "A's" are more like, "I am listening and I might be persuaded to join your church, but I would like more evidence before I make up my mind one way or the other",

Of course, I am not infallible and I could be wrong. But when the "E's" resort to using manufactured evidence, I question whether they have been duped by others, have a hidden agenda, or whether they truly believe what they are saying?

And in fairness, I have to accept that some pro-vaxxers will also have a hidden agenda. I suspect that only time will tell which group is correct. 

 

[SickBuffalo]

27 minutes ago, JohninDubin said:

Just speaking for myself, I see anti-vaxxers as falling into two camps which I would call, "Evangelicals" and "Agnostics". I think the religious comparison is apt. The "E's" are trying to save us from the folly of our irreligious ways and want to persuade us that their belief system is the only true faith. If you do not follow their beliefs, you are damned. When you point out the lack of scientific evidence for their beliefs, they use spurious claims to manufacture some.

Agree 100%.

27 minutes ago, JohninDubin said:

And in fairness, I have to accept that some pro-vaxxers will also have a hidden agenda. I suspect that only time will tell which group is correct. 

There are undoubtedly some hardline evangelicals in the pro camp too, most notabIy those quashing all discussion under the banner of “The Science”.

I suspect what we will discover, in time, is that there has been a certain amount of regulatory capture and a distortion of the media narrative due to the over reliance on pharma advertising.

That has demoted the opinions of clinicians in the field and sidelined discussion of proven, safe prophylactics that could suppress the spread of the virus, and the emergence of variants, while the world waits for vaccines to be available to all 7.7 billion humans.

There is going to be hell to pay at some point and that is why the culture has entered such an authoritarian phase. The establishment have massively overextended their credibility and are terrified.

[JamesR]

47 minutes ago, SickBuffalo said:

Agree 100%.

There are undoubtedly some hardline evangelicals in the pro camp too, most notabIy those quashing all discussion under the banner of “The Science”.

I suspect what we will discover, in time, is that there has been a certain amount of regulatory capture and a distortion of the media narrative due to the over reliance on pharma advertising.

That has demoted the opinions of clinicians in the field and sidelined discussion of proven, safe prophylactics that could suppress the spread of the virus, and the emergence of variants, while the world waits for vaccines to be available to all 7.7 billion humans.

There is going to be hell to pay at some point and that is why the culture has entered such an authoritarian phase. The establishment have massively overextended their credibility and are terrified.

I doubt the government in Thailand is worried about what the people there think, they can set up a military dictatorship as they did a few years ago with not much reaction and can get away with a very poor vaccine rollout, plus they are not worried what farangs think in Thailand as they can not vote and have zero rights. 

[SickBuffalo]

30 minutes ago, JamesR said:

I doubt the government in Thailand is worried about what the people there think

Sure. Thailand is not really a player in the global discussion.

30 minutes ago, JamesR said:

they can set up a military dictatorship as they did a few years ago with not much reaction

The current government still is a military dictatorship. The election rules were changed to give the army permanent control. The parliament is a rubber stamping operation. Any hint of genuine opposition was swiftly eliminated. Since the coup, no referendum or election has been held under what would be regarded internationally as democratic conditions.

30 minutes ago, JamesR said:

and can get away with a very poor vaccine rollout

No. Their bosses are the elites. The botched handling of the pandemic is costing Thailand's richest families hundreds of billions of dollars. The greatest danger to this group of generals is not a people's revolution but that they will find themselves replaced by another, more hardline group of generals. The elites can arrange that whenever they want.

30 minutes ago, JamesR said:

plus they are not worried what farangs think in Thailand as they can not vote and have zero rights.

Actually, they are extraordinarily sensitive to criticism and worried that farangs talking about democracy will corrupt their happy serfs.
 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by SickBuffalo

[gummy]

2 hours ago, SickBuffalo said:

Sure. Thailand is not really a player in the global discussion.

The current government still is a military dictatorship. The election rules were changed to give the army permanent control. The parliament is a rubber stamping operation. Any hint of genuine opposition was swiftly eliminated. Since the coup, no referendum or election has been held under what would be regarded internationally as democratic conditions.

No. Their bosses are the elites. The botched handling of the pandemic is costing Thailand's richest families hundreds of billions of dollars. The greatest danger to this group of generals is not a people's revolution but that they will find themselves replaced by another, more hardline group of generals. The elites can arrange that whenever they want.

Actually, they are extraordinarily sensitive to criticism and worried that farangs talking about democracy will corrupt their happy serfs.
 

And that is so very true and believe you me the handling of the pandemic has done more to make those poorer Thais unhappy then anything else in the decades I have been here. But please can we be more respectful to those poorer Thais ? They may be regarded as "serfs" by those you describe  in your post but to most of us they are the normal friendly Thais, albeit poor in many cases, that made Thailand very attractive and friendly place for us to visit originally.

[SickBuffalo]

1 hour ago, gummy said:

But please can we be more respectful to those poorer Thais ? They may be regarded as "serfs" by those you describe  in your post but to most of us they are the normal friendly Thais, albeit poor in many cases, that made Thailand very attractive and friendly place for us to visit originally.

Oh, that is just a style of writing in which one implies the perspective of the main subject of the sentence.

In this case, I was talking about the government and elites, and how they fear that talk of democracy might corrupt the lower classes, who they like to think of as simple people, easily distracted by nonsense. The disrespect of the phrase "happy serfs" acknowledges the patronizing attitude of the elites towards the lower classes, not the writer.

English should be beautiful. It is extremely important that we not allow the insane wave of virtue signaling currently raging in the US to strip our writing of all complexity and nuance, for fear of offending some imaginary victim. I am certain that no one who read that line thought that I was being disrespectful to the Thai lower classes. I am also pretty sure that even you did not really think that.

Just as a general rule, if you are ever unsure, you can assume that the vast majority of people who bother to mention democracy consider it to be a good thing, and interpret the rest of what they write accordingly.
 

1 hour ago, gummy said:

believe you me the handling of the pandemic has done more to make those poorer Thais unhappy then anything else in the decades I have been here.

Yes, I have observed this too. Thais will put up with a lot, far more than they should, but even they now resent the complete mess this government is making of their beautiful country.

[KhunG]

7 hours ago, JohninDubin said:

There are currently over 500k open missing persons file in the US.

Source, please?

[KhunG]

5 hours ago, JohninDubin said:

Good post.

Just speaking for myself, I see anti-vaxxers as falling into two camps which I would call, "Evangelicals" and "Agnostics". I think the religious comparison is apt. The "E's" are trying to save us from the folly of our irreligious ways and want to persuade us that their belief system is the only true faith. If you do not follow their beliefs, you are damned. When you point out the lack of scientific evidence for their beliefs, they use spurious claims to manufacture some.

The "A's" are more like, "I am listening and I might be persuaded to join your church, but I would like more evidence before I make up my mind one way or the other",

Of course, I am not infallible and I could be wrong. But when the "E's" resort to using manufactured evidence, I question whether they have been duped by others, have a hidden agenda, or whether they truly believe what they are saying?

And in fairness, I have to accept that some pro-vaxxers will also have a hidden agenda. I suspect that only time will tell which group is correct. 

That is a good analysis.  I'd consider myself an "Agnostic" pro-vaxxer.  I'm willing to get, even paid, one of the apparently highly effective vaccines, but won't bother with the main vaccine currently available in Thailand.  I'll wait.

[JohninDublin]

4 hours ago, KhunG said:

Source, please?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/240401/number-of-missing-person-files-in-the-us-since-1990/

[JohninDublin]

4 hours ago, KhunG said:

That is a good analysis.  I'd consider myself an "Agnostic" pro-vaxxer.  I'm willing to get, even paid, one of the apparently highly effective vaccines, but won't bother with the main vaccine currently available in Thailand.  I'll wait.

Probably a very wise decision. Sinovax which has only ever received a 50-55% efficacy rating, was reported yesterday as losing its antibody count at the rate of 50% every 40 days. Thus after 4 months, the remaining antibodies are just 12.5% of the original 50-55% efficiency.

I saw yesterday, that the TH gov will be replacing the second Sinovax jab with AZ, and for those who have had a second shot, they can get an AZ shot as a booster. Hope that improves matters. But I note that they have not put a price on the AZ jab yet. That will be interesting to see, because AZ are distributing the Vax at cost price which is currently about 220 THB, plus shipping costs.

I've been looking at prices for PCR tests in TH, and these have ranged from 2-5k THB. On Samui, where there is no chance of real competition, it is 5K. I am not sure what arrangements are going to be made about distribution, but I desperately hope that the TH gov will jump all over price gougers.