Government says Sinovac works, despite claims of lower efficacy against variants

[oldcpu]

  On 8/18/2021 at 5:12 AM, riclag said:

Spot on 

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Excellent.  Maybe you could show me the Wikipedia post that I 'allegedly copied and pasted' from ?  

I am most curious.  

Edited August 18, 2021 by oldcpu

[oldcpu]

For those who may not have read such, here is a Thai language article that notes of a ongoing Thai study, that addresses mixing Sinovac and AstraZeneca. https://mgronline.com/qol/detail/9640000072391

My apologies to those who have seen me post this before, its not my intent to spam, but I have the impression many on this thread have not read such before.  Note that the Pfizer data should be ignored, as there was too small a sample of the Pfizer to provide a useful Pfizer plot.  

[riclag]

  On 8/18/2021 at 4:49 AM, Bob20 said:

Basically, I agree that Thailand have to use Sinovac because of its availability and because it failed to order better alternatives earlier. If that's how they explain it, that's understandable.

But don't let the government claim that it's near 100% effective because that's simply not true.

As with everything else, and you are doing it in your post as well, it is easy to pick examples and individual studies. That way you can claim anything. You can find that someone died in a Volvo car, but the fact remains that they are worldwide the safest cars. Individual findings and publications prove nothing, as they can be biased and or sponsored. You have to look at consensus in thousands of independent scientific publications.

That's why the company states 51.38% efficacy and that's probably higher than the reality.

And please remember this: NO vaccine has been formally certified and approved! They have only been temporarily granted approval for use in this emergency situation.

And nothing is scientifically known about mixing vaccines. Papers have only recently been appearing and they overwhelmingly show that it should NOT be recommended practise. But not enough is known and again your example is no more than "my neighbour drinks a lot of coffee and has no Covid, so coffee prevents Covid". 

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Mixing  vaccs is very concerning ! The thought of rushing to sinovac up just to have something  while waiting for the Mvacc  influenced my decision to hunker down while  avoiding sinovacc, hospital procedures and gatherings of people !

Initially in Thailand the AZ doses were being played around!

At one point they had 12 doses per vile then they up it to 14 then back to 12! They moved the dates around from 12 weeks to 16 then back to 12 ,then 8  for the second shot! 

This Govt blamed the people and the variant for the rise in the virus from china in Thailand. I'm not buyin that anymore

Edited August 18, 2021 by riclag

[riclag]

  On 8/18/2021 at 5:16 AM, oldcpu said:

Excellent.  Maybe you could show me the Wikipedia post that I 'allegedly copied and pasted' from ?  

I am most curious.  

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I never said that your confusing me with someone else

[Bob20]

  On 8/18/2021 at 5:15 AM, oldcpu said:

Ahh yes ... So you believe everything from the WHO?  Yes ?

Then you note WHO has accepted Sinovac to the same extent as Moderna, Pfizer ... etc ..

Or do you just cherry pick ?  

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This is my final reply, because you keep looking at individual cases and just rant with no relevance to the actual topic.

Every brand of car will drive. But some are better than others.

Same with vaccines. 

And I don't take your word for that, nor a governments word, nor the manufacturers word, nor one scientists word, nor only the WHO's opinion. But I certainly would take their word over yours

I look only at consensus after enough has been researched and published. For this I consult the medline/pubmed database with nearly every scientific paper that has been released worldwide over the last decades.

Like I said, I don't mind if you make do with sinovac. And I don't mind what cocktail you take for a second dose either.

[Poolie]

  On 8/18/2021 at 4:29 AM, Bob20 said:

No, that's not facts. That's individually handpicked studies with favourable results. You need to look at ALL data. Do you think that if a vaccine was THAT good, the company itself would publish only 51.38% efficacy (against only the original strain)? If it was really that good, they would shout it from the rooftops!

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I couldnt really care to be honest. Its a vaccine and I dont worry about which one is "best." 

[Bob20]

  On 8/18/2021 at 5:28 AM, riclag said:

Mixing  vaccs is very concerning ! The thought of rushing to sinovac up just to have something  while waiting for the Mvacc  influenced my decision to hunker down while  avoiding gatherings of people !

Initially in Thailand the AZ doses were being played around!

At one point they had 12 doses per vile then they up it to 14 then back to 12! They moved the dates around from 12 weeks to 16 then back to 12 ,then 8  for the second shot! 

This Govt blamed the people and the variant for the rise in the virus from china in Thailand. I'm not buyin that anymore

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You're correct. The mixing approach is not at all well researched and if something goes wrong then the fingerpointing starts to blame one or the other vaccine.

Also realise that this problem won't go away. The pandemic will probably turn endemic and just like the flu, vulnerable people will likely require annual jabs. What's in stock next year? Will you get yet another? 

Unless mixes ar proven to be as effective as mRNA vaccines with no additional side-effects (proven scientifically by double blind studies), for which it is much too early yet, I choose to have one brand and stick with it.

[HolyCowCm]

  On 8/18/2021 at 3:46 AM, gordo2613 said:

Having said that the Govt and VIP HiSo mob have all had AZ or Pfizer, I think China is forcing the deal on the Thai govt

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Makes more sense it is being pushed by CP who is close to the heads of the CCP, and then kowtowing to the CCP, and the last one that needs to be answered of why it is more expensive than the good vaccines, and who is getting the silent offshore kickbacks. There is more to this than just being an idiot and saying ok, sounds good to me as all is above board and transparent.

[Paco]

All the garbage 🗑  that comes out of the mouth of health minister, clown, is because he probably benefit from it, everything  he says is garbage.

Let me remind some things he said:

Fallang is dirty

Station not over crowded ( photos proof that it was)

And a lot more garbage 

Now this again, his word against another million people this person if you can call him that. Let me refrase that... this CLOWN spreading lies (fake news) and nobody stop this lunatic.. if he things it is so good let him take 20 doses. That stuff is not going in my body. Why thailand always has a lowest quality of all... this CLOWN irritates me, he is annoying and a damn liar... iq of -100... an proofs over again he does not ever had any qualifications of being a minister ... disgusting CLOWN  

By the way the government says a lot and they not trustworthy at all, so why should we ever believe the bunch of bastards

Edited August 18, 2021 by Paco

[HolyCowCm]

It is really apparent the these people who were honestly elected do not care one little bit about the good Thai people. These fat head people need to have the same circumstance done to them like what just happened in a certain country, but not scared of the evil T a l i ban, but scared of the good majority of Thai people that have had enough. They need to be shown the love back for what they give.

[Bob20]

  On 8/18/2021 at 6:00 AM, Paco said:

All the garbage 🗑  that comes out of the mouth of health minister, clown, is because he probably benefit from it, everything  he says is garbage.

Let me remind some things he said:

Fallang is dirty

Station not over crowded ( photos proof that it was)

And a lot more garbage 

Now this again, his word against another million people this person if you can call him that. Let me refrase that... this CLOWN spreading lies (fake news) and nobody stop this lunatic.. if he things it is so good let him take 20 doses. That stuff is not going in my body. Why thailand always has a lowest quality of all... this CLOWN irritates me, he is annoying and a damn liar... iq of -100... an proofs over again he does not ever had any qualifications of being a minister ... disgusting CLOWN  

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So you don't have a strong opinion about him then? 

[Paco]

Like I mentioned yesterday  I registered  2 days earlier for vaccine then someone I know, he got his appointment, me not .. reason he lives in chonburi and me not so all that signup process is so rigged, and they only select people from Bangkok and chonburi... busted..Mr not reliable government

[Paco]

  On 8/18/2021 at 6:03 AM, Bob20 said:

So you don't have a strong opinion about him then? 

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Yeah I have but it ain't anything good 555

[oldcpu]

  On 8/18/2021 at 5:36 AM, Bob20 said:

And I don't take your word for that, nor a governments word, nor the manufacturers word, nor one scientists word, nor only the WHO's opinion. But I certainly would take their word over yours

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You don't have to take my word. I posted my references. You didn't other than cherry pick what you liked in WHO and ignore what you didn't like in WHO .

Further, if you had read more, you would have read that WHO revised what they said about mixing vaccines and stated an individual should not decide themselves as to what vaccines to mix, but rather should rely on their national health authorities and it was fine if national health authorities said to mix.  Of course you didn't mention that because it was counter to the spin you put out.

  On 8/18/2021 at 5:36 AM, Bob20 said:

I look only at consensus after enough has been researched and published. For this I consult the medline/pubmed database with nearly every scientific paper that has been released worldwide over the last decades.

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ah yes ... this is the scientific consensus that you can't point to?  The consensus perhaps being a one you made up because you can't point to an actual consensus of studies ?  ....  Hmmm.

  On 8/18/2021 at 5:36 AM, Bob20 said:

Like I said, I don't mind if you make do with sinovac. And I don't mind what cocktail you take for a second dose either.

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Hey - if you are happy to wait until 2022 before being vaccinated, when AstraZeneca and Sinovac are available today, while the pandemic rages in Thailand, with more cases and more deaths every week - go right ahead.  I won't try to stop you.

I have friends who are anti-vaxers, and I don't criticize them.  I do note thou, these anti-vaxer friends to try to eat healthy, and they are incredibly fit, and they self isolate as much as possible, and they follow government guidelines for mask wear, public gatherings, etc ...

Edited August 18, 2021 by oldcpu

[Soidog]

  On 8/18/2021 at 4:26 AM, JackIsAGoodBoy said:

Ivecmectin is already being used in many countries countrywide like Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Peru, Nicaragua, Bolivia and Panama. https://ivmstatus.com/

Why the hell it is not used widely in Thailand?!

As a preventive measure over 80 percent, as an early treatment 70 percent, as late treatment about 40 percent improvement overall. 63 studies. As many know already, it is all in ivmmeta.com

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I don’t have the “facts & figures” on this drug as you seem to. But quoting the list of countries you have doesn’t fill me with a lot of faith. If you had said Sweden, Norway, Germany, U.K. and Australia, I’d have rushed out and bought a pack myself. 

[Soidog]

  On 8/18/2021 at 5:38 AM, Poolie said:

I couldnt really care to be honest. Its a vaccine and I dont worry about which one is "best." 

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I agree if choice is one type of vaccine or nothing, then anything is better than nothing. I think the annoyance is that you know there are more effective vaccines out there but many can’t get their hands on them. 

[shanghailoz]

Right now the best vaccine in Thailand, is the one you can get.

If its Sinovac, then take Sinovac...  All the vaccines dramatically reduce the chance of death from Covid.

If you have a choice, then pick the one you think is best.  Most people don't have a choice, and are lucky to be able to even get a vaccine here.

My 2 cents.

[Poolie]

  On 8/18/2021 at 7:28 AM, Soidog said:

I agree if choice is one type of vaccine or nothing, then anything is better than nothing. I think the annoyance is that you know there are more effective vaccines out there but many can’t get their hands on them. 

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Right. So take the one you can get.

Its not difficult. Dont get annoyed.

[JackIsAGoodBoy]

  On 8/18/2021 at 7:24 AM, Soidog said:

I don’t have the “facts & figures” on this drug as you seem to. But quoting the list of countries you have doesn’t fill me with a lot of faith. If you had said Sweden, Norway, Germany, U.K. and Australia, I’d have rushed out and bought a pack myself. 

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Australia went full hysteria. New Zealand went beyond full hysteria, locked down hard again because of ONE case! USA restricted right away the Ivermectin availability without any studies last spring. People are waiting for hours to get it in some states. Some even using Ivermectin paste meant for horses. Just pretend you are a pony!

UK went for semi-tyrannical bullshit except lately came back from the brink. Germany almost the same.

Most western countries are not looking actively for other treatments other than the supposedly Holy Vaccines, unlike the developing countries willing to try anything and most with proper trials.

Edited August 18, 2021 by JackIsAGoodBoy

[Paco]

  On 8/18/2021 at 7:35 AM, shanghailoz said:

Right now the best vaccine in Thailand, is the one you can get.

If its Sinovac, then take Sinovac...  All the vaccines dramatically reduce the chance of death from Covid.

If you have a choice, then pick the one you think is best.  Most people don't have a choice, and are lucky to be able to even get a vaccine here.

My 2 cents.

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Many problems with that vaccine for diabetic people, so no I will never take it 

My 2 cents

[Bob20]

  On 8/18/2021 at 8:51 AM, Paco said:

Many problems with that vaccine for diabetic people, so no I will never take it 

My 2 cents

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I agree. If you've been okay for the last 19 months and can get something inferior in a few months or get something good a little later, I would take the chance too. It's not like everyone gets Sinovac today either! Even that is slow.

Also you will likely need more again later and besides the efficacy, if you're not always bound to Thailand, you're better off with a vaccine that's available in most countries if you want to stick to one type, which I would advise at least until there is solid evidence that mixing has no adverse effects and would be beneficial.

[shanghailoz]

  On 8/18/2021 at 8:51 AM, Paco said:

Many problems with that vaccine for diabetic people, so no I will never take it 

My 2 cents

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7904463/
Patients with type 1 and type 2 diabetes mellitus are at a high risk of poor prognosis with COVID-19 and vaccination should be prioritized in them. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8192264/
Diabetes, one of the most prevalent chronic diseases in the world, is strongly associated with a poor prognosis in COVID-19. Scrupulous blood sugar management is crucial, since the worse outcomes are closely associated with higher blood sugar levels in COVID-19 infection.
 

You can choose AZ here also, go for that then if you are worried about Sinovac.

Go for a vaccine though, you're a high risk otherwise...

Edited August 18, 2021 by shanghailoz

[Bob20]

  On 8/18/2021 at 7:47 AM, JackIsAGoodBoy said:

Australia went full hysteria. New Zealand went beyond full hysteria, locked down hard again because of ONE case!

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Yes my friend, that is how lockdown works and how you contain a problem.

Allowing it to first become 100+ cases and then announcing that you will start a lockdown after 2 days so that everyone can first travel all over the country before lockdown starts IS EXACTLY what went WRONG in many countries, including Wuhan when China still allowed travel during Chinese New Year in 2020 and in Thailand with Songkran in 2021.

The New Zealanders understand how to do it and that's why they were successful and had single digit cases for ages.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Bob20

[Soidog]

  On 8/18/2021 at 7:47 AM, JackIsAGoodBoy said:

Australia went full hysteria. New Zealand went beyond full hysteria, locked down hard again because of ONE case! USA restricted right away the Ivermectin availability without any studies last spring. People are waiting for hours to get it in some states. Some even using Ivermectin paste meant for horses. Just pretend you are a pony!

UK went for semi-tyrannical bullshit except lately came back from the brink. Germany almost the same.

Most western countries are not looking actively for other treatments other than the supposedly Holy Vaccines, unlike the developing countries willing to try anything and most with proper trials.

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Have you heard of Dexamethasone. That’s a treatment discovered and developed for the treatment of Covid in the U.K.  

[Soidog]

  On 8/18/2021 at 7:45 AM, Poolie said:

Right. So take the one you can get.

Its not difficult. Dont get annoyed.

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Clearly someone who is easily pleased