Government says Sinovac works, despite claims of lower efficacy against variants

[Bob20]

4 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Have you heard of Dexamethasone. That’s a treatment discovered and developed for the treatment of Covid in the U.K.  

Dexamethasone is an existing corticosteroid that reduces inflammation in the lungs and only lowers the 28-day death-rate if you are already intubated or are on oxygen-assisted breathing. It is NOT medication against the Corona virus.

[Soidog]

1 hour ago, Bob20 said:

Dexamethasone is an existing corticosteroid that reduces inflammation in the lungs and only lowers the 28-day death-rate if you are already intubated or are on oxygen-assisted breathing. It is NOT medication against the Corona virus.

Yes I know Bob20. But it’s a treatment. It’s not reasonable to say that Western countries aren’t looking for effective ways to protect and treat Covid other than vaccines. It’s an insult to the people who dedicate their life researching such things. 

[oldcpu]

3 hours ago, JackIsAGoodBoy said:

Australia went full hysteria. New Zealand went beyond full hysteria, locked down hard again because of ONE case!

It would be interesting to get some statistics on the economic effects (and life style effects) of EARLY and HARD lockdowns (like that of New Zealand) vs the late political decision avoiding procrastinating lockdowns of most other countries in the world, where for most other countries the pandemic is practically out of control before they put in place any sort quasi-effective lockdown.

My suspicion, is New Zealand's approach, as crazy as it may sound, may actually be better.

I note despite the country being closed to most foreigners for the past year, with no foreign tourists to speak of, New Zealand has a relatively very strong currency.  Contrast that to Thailand, which had a strong currency last year, but when the pandemic broke out this year, the Thai baht began to fall.

I am beginning to suspect, that New Zealand may have the best economic, and best social approach to this. Their lockdowns while early and hard, do not last as long as the procrastinated lockdowns of elsewhere in the world.

But who really knows?  I doubt there are any studies - as its too risk for the politicians in power if it goes against their chosen approach. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by oldcpu

[Bob20]

6 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

It would be interesting to get some statistics on the economic effects (and life style effects) of EARLY and HARD lockdowns (like that of New Zealand) vs the late political decision avoiding procrastinating lockdowns of most other countries in the world, where for most other countries the pandemic is practically out of control before they put in place any sort quasi-effective lockdown.

My suspicion, is New Zealand's approach, as crazy as it may sound, may actually be better.

I note despite the country being closed to most foreigners for the past year, with no foreign tourists to speak of, New Zealand has a relatively very strong currency.  Contrast that to Thailand, which had a strong currency last year, but when the pandemic broke out this year, the Thai baht began to fall.

I am beginning to suspect, that New Zealand may have the best economic, and best social approach to this. Their lockdowns while early and hard, do not last as long as the procrastinated lockdowns of elsewhere in the world.

But who really knows?  I doubt there are any studies - as its too risk for the politicians in power if it goes against their chosen approach. 

To get you started...

https://www.algebris.com/policy-research-forum/lockdown-and-effective-r0-a-tale-of-dm-vs-em/

[JackIsAGoodBoy]

11 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I am beginning to suspect, that New Zealand may have the best economic, and best social approach to this. Their lockdowns while early and hard, do not last as long as the procrastinated lockdowns of elsewhere in the world.

Except they are still doing those lockdowns while the Nordics, Germany, USA, UK etc are gradually already opening.

[King Cotton]

20 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

To get you started...

https://www.algebris.com/policy-research-forum/lockdown-and-effective-r0-a-tale-of-dm-vs-em/

Some interesting concepts in that report. Thanks for that!

[Bob20]

26 minutes ago, JackIsAGoodBoy said:

Except they are still doing those lockdowns while the Nordics, Germany, USA, UK etc are gradually already opening.

We will not get a definitive answer on these questions because countries have no standardised way of measuring things.

For example; Mass testing. Some countries test at random. Some countries test only high-risk groups. That will give results that you can't compare.

One country tests 500.000 people and finds 20.000 positive results. Another country tests only 100.000 people and finds 20.000 positive results. Both will publish 20.000 cases, but they are not the same.

This is why it is useless to publish Covid19 case numbers without further data specification as many newspapers do each day.

Standardisation is one of the things to tackle before a next pandemic, so problems can be handled more effectively.

And as far as the reopening of some countries is concerned, please don't forget that they had 20 (!!!) months of desperation already with huge numbers of Covid cases and deaths, far more than Thailand. We've had it "relatively" good (compared to most other countries) and case numbers only started to get very serious after Songkan 2021. There was more than a year to anticipate and prepare, but that didn't happen and it's understandable that people want to hold the decision makers to account.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Bob20
Small typo. Ris-k-

[NoshowJones]

6 hours ago, riclag said:

Mixing  vaccs is very concerning ! The thought of rushing to sinovac up just to have something  while waiting for the Mvacc  influenced my decision to hunker down while  avoiding sinovacc, hospital procedures and gatherings of people !

Initially in Thailand the AZ doses were being played around!

At one point they had 12 doses per vile then they up it to 14 then back to 12! They moved the dates around from 12 weeks to 16 then back to 12 ,then 8  for the second shot! 

This Govt blamed the people and the variant for the rise in the virus from china in Thailand. I'm not buyin that anymore

"This Govt blamed the people and the variant for the rise in the virus from china in Thailand. I'm not buyin that anymore."

Neither am I. This self elected PM and his government is responsible for the situation in Thailand today for being too late with the vaccines, and allowing all the traveling through the provinces at Songcran.

[Paco]

3 hours ago, shanghailoz said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7904463/
Patients with type 1 and type 2 diabetes mellitus are at a high risk of poor prognosis with COVID-19 and vaccination should be prioritized in them. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8192264/
Diabetes, one of the most prevalent chronic diseases in the world, is strongly associated with a poor prognosis in COVID-19. Scrupulous blood sugar management is crucial, since the worse outcomes are closely associated with higher blood sugar levels in COVID-19 infection.
 

You can choose AZ here also, go for that then if you are worried about Sinovac.

Go for a vaccine though, you're a high risk otherwise...

I know, I have my blood sugar under control already for years because it is very important to me, so taking a vaccine is one of my priorities however I did a lot of reading etc and Pfizer came out for me the best without to many risks. I am pretty upset because I keep my sugar level perfect and then they start to roll out these vaccines with if you do not take it you will not get any vaccine.. what is a big nonsense I have to think about my health and not 1 government is going to tell me I have to inject that in my body a vaccine that I do not want unless it is Pfizer. Thailand should for once  get some quality things, instead of risking more people's life

Edited August 18, 2021 by Paco

[Paco]

3 hours ago, Bob20 said:

I agree. If you've been okay for the last 19 months and can get something inferior in a few months or get something good a little later, I would take the chance too. It's not like everyone gets Sinovac today either! Even that is slow.

Also you will likely need more again later and besides the efficacy, if you're not always bound to Thailand, you're better off with a vaccine that's available in most countries if you want to stick to one type, which I would advise at least until there is solid evidence that mixing has no adverse effects and would be beneficial.

Thanks for that comment, appreciate it, I am bound in Thailand since 18 years.... but yeah I rather wait we all have to anyway. I do not go much places and I certainly not in crowds

[vvdb.fr]

we have to put things back in order. what is important is protection against a serious covid that saturates hospital intensive care beds. effectiveness for symptoms is personal. this efficiency fell to 68% for the AstraZeneca and to 88% for Pfizer and Moderna. it is always 98% for severe forms (resuscitation). there are unfortunately no figures for Chinese vaccines which have not filed for approval in America and Europe nor for the Russian Sputnik. These vaccines provide protection, it is better to use them than nothing! vaccinate yourself at Sinopharm and when moderna is available, a dose to boost, that's all. the caregivers have all been vaccinated so anyone who will catch the disease and die from it was vaccinated, that's math. nobody said it protects 100%! even in Europe, doctors still die vaccinated with Pfizer, on the other hand 1000 times less than the unvaccinated. this is the only comparison that needs to be made. if the vaccine does not work, 2% of doctors should die! fortunately this is not the case.

Edited August 18, 2021 by vvdb.fr
English

[vvdb.fr]

8 hours ago, oldcpu said:

J'aime visiter le Canada. Il n'accepte pas Sinovac, mais il accepte AstraZeneca.

J'aime aussi visiter l'Europe. À l'heure actuelle, l'EMA n'accepte pas les AstraZeneca de production japonaise, coréenne ou thaïlandaise.

La Chine n'accepte pas Pfizer (ou du moins ils ne l'ont pas fait il y a quelques mois - je ne connais pas la situation actuelle).

Cette acceptation du « vaccin » est massivement politique, et les politiciens de l'Est et de l'Ouest l'utilisent pour gagner des points politiques, là où la science ne compte malheureusement pas pour eux.

EMA homologates the factories, it is a question of ensuring that there is no possibility of manufacturing mixing and that the product in the vials is in all respects identical from the first to the last vial.

The Sputnik plant did not obtain this certification because it is very dilapidated.

[Bob20]

6 minutes ago, vvdb.fr said:

we have to put things back in order. what is important is the protection against a serious covid which saturates the intensive care beds. effectiveness for symptoms is personal. this efficiency fell to 68% for the AstraZeneca and to 88% for Pfizer and Moderna. it is always 95% for severe forms (resuscitation). there are unfortunately no figures for Chinese vaccines which have not filed for approval in America and Europe nor for the Russian Sputnik. These vaccines provide protection, better than nothing! vaccinated you at Sinopharm and when moderna is available, a booster dose, that's all. the caregivers have all been vaccinated so anyone who will catch the disease and die from it was vaccinated, that's math. nobody said it protects 100%! even in Europe, doctors still die vaccinated with Pfizer, on the other hand 1000 times less than the unvaccinated. this is the only comparison that needs to be made. if the vaccine does not work, 2% of doctors should die! fortunately this is not the case.

I am sorry to sound harsh, but everything after the first sentence is purely made up.

Pfizer has 94% efficacy, so 6% of people may get seriously ill or die (not 2% as you say and certainly not 1000 times less but only 16 times less).

Sinovac has 51% efficacy (according to the manufacturer), so 49% may get seriously ill or die still. 

And if the government now claim Sinovac is nearly 100% effective and superb, then why do they mix it with AZ whilst they can quickly get as much of Sinovac as they want? Anyone will immediately recognise that you don't mix it if it's perfect already, so it's obviously not true.

And for mixing vaccines, which is purely experimental and not recommended by any medical specialist or any health organisation anywhere, there are no statistically significant numbers yet. It may well be dangerous and have even less protection or give side effects or long term problems. We just don't know yet. If anyone wants to be a test subject, I won't stop you.

i'm no anti vaxxer. But if today there's only something inferior available, I'll happily wait and will meanwhile live responsibly. And if anyone else wants to have whatever vaccine injected in them and/or mix it with another, that's their prerogative too.

Just don't think it's all effective and safe because some government says it.

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, Bob20 said:

https://www.algebris.com/policy-research-forum/lockdown-and-effective-r0-a-tale-of-dm-vs-em/

Thanks. Interesting.

Wrt New Zealand it notes it is an exception ... suggesting it's conclusions may not be so applicable there? Not sure. ...

New Zealand as an Island national far from other countries also has what I believe to be an edge in being able to isolate itself if/as deemed necessary.

[Poolie]

26 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

I am sorry to sound harsh, but everything after the first sentence is purely made up.

Pfizer has 94% efficacy, so 6% of people may get seriously ill or die (not 2% as you say and certainly not 1000 times less but only 16 times less).

Sinovac has 51% efficacy (according to the manufacturer), so 49% may get seriously ill or die still. 

And if the government now claim Sinovac is nearly 100% effective and superb, then why do they mix it with AZ whilst they can quickly get as much of Sinovac as they want? Anyone will immediately recognise that you don't mix it if it's perfect already, so it's obviously not true.

And for mixing vaccines, which is purely experimental and not recommended by any medical specialist or any health organisation anywhere, there are no statistically significant numbers yet. It may well be dangerous and have even less protection or give side effects or long term problems. We just don't know yet. If anyone wants to be a test subject, I won't stop you.

i'm no anti vaxxer. But if today there's only something inferior available, I'll happily wait and will meanwhile live responsibly. And if anyone else wants to have whatever vaccine injected in them and/or mix it with another, that's their prerogative too.

Just don't think it's all effective and safe because some government says it.

You  clearly dont understand 'efficacy.'

[Bob20]

17 minutes ago, Poolie said:

You  clearly dont understand 'efficacy.'

I think the odds are against you there but thanks for a few unsubstantiated words.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Bob20

[Poolie]

18 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

I think the odds are against you there but thanks for a few unsubstantiated words.

Thanks for the confirmation.

[WEH]

23 hours ago, oldcpu said:

Rather they simply show reduced efficacy.

Why would Thailand be pushing such a vaccine? Why would they order millions more? I suppose the health of their people is not very important. 

[oldcpu]

23 minutes ago, WEH said:

Why would Thailand be pushing such a vaccine? Why would they order millions more? I suppose the health of their people is not very important. 

I think Thailand IS trying to order millions more - but their own bureaucracy (and perhaps policy) was in the way earlier.

Various news sources have noted (aside from the USA donated Pfizer) that the mRNA will not be available in Thailand until Q4-2021 at the earliest, and quite possibly Q1-2022 (despite efforts being made to procure it now).  Further, news sources report that the Thai AstraZeneca production facility will not provide to Thailand the quantity of AstraZeneca that Thailand  wants and that the Thailand government is trying to get.

So Thailand is trying to save lives with what it can lay its hands on - which at present is only Sinovac (and some Sinopharm) in addition to an inadequate supply of AstraZeneca.   Sinovac saves lives, and reduces infections for many, albeit I think it a correct common belief that Sinovac not as effective as AZ nor the mRNA vaccines.  But still - saving lives is good (even if not the best vaccine).

If Thailand waits until it gets more AstraZeneca, and waits until the mRNA show up, likely many hundreds more will die, and likely thousands more will become very ill, missing work, not earning wages, and families will suffer.

Its not a pleasant situation, and after being far too slow earlier in ordering vaccines, the government is now trying to make up for what many see as the Government's tardiness.

Edited August 19, 2021 by oldcpu

[Bob20]

Slightly outside the scope of the topic, but new research under 3 million test subjects by the University of Oxford shows that 90 days after the 2nd jab, AZ (Europe) is still 68% effective and Pfizer still 75%. Protection against the delta variant reduces after 90 days too. That's why they're talking booster jabs.

It is also mentioned that the AZ vaccine (produced in Asia) is still not approved by most western countries and may not secure entry to those countries.

As Sinovac (three weeks after the second jab) gives on average only 51% protection, protection will most likely reduce further after 90 days too.

Many here advocate "take what you can get". And that is understandable. But when mixing vaccines, you are really just a test-subject. And some caution goes a long way.

[Guevara]

At the end of the day, the Thai Government can defend it until the cows come home. More and more Governments around the Globe will not recognize it as an effective vaccine, whether you have 2 doses or 2000 doses. The longer Prayat uses this 'placebo', the longer the people of Thailand suffer. A very sad and frustrating situation.

[Bob20]

 

And here's a cumulative list of research results until now regarding the different vaccines (so not only a good result for promotion or a bad result to criticise, but the average of all available research):

The AZD1222 vaccine (manufactured in Europe) against COVID-19 has an efficacy of 63.09% against symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection.
The Sinovac-Coronavac vaccine against COVID-19 has an efficacy of 51% against symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection.
The Pfizer BioNTech vaccine against COVID-19 has an efficacy of 95% against symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection.
The Moderna vaccine has an efficacy of 94.1% against symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection.
The AZ vaccine (manufactured in Thailand) has not yet been listed by the WHO and insufficient data are available although they should more or less mirror AZ manufactured in Europe.
The Sputnik vaccine has not yet been listed by the WHO.

No vaccines have been officially certified and approved. All have only been granted -temporary approval- for -emergency use-.

And there have been no scientific studies released on mixing Sinovac and AstraZeneca.

Just factual information. Draw your own conclusions...

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Bob20

[Guevara]

1 hour ago, Bob20 said:

Slightly outside the scope of the topic, but new research under 3 million test subjects by the University of Oxford shows that 90 days after the 2nd jab, AZ (Europe) is still 68% effective and Pfizer still 75%. Protection against the delta variant reduces after 90 days too. That's why they're talking booster jabs.

It is also mentioned that the AZ vaccine (produced in Asia) is still not approved by most western countries and may not secure entry to those countries.

As Sinovac (three weeks after the second jab) gives on average only 51% protection, protection will most likely reduce further after 90 days too.

Many here advocate "take what you can get". And that is understandable. But when mixing vaccines, you are really just a test-subject. And some caution goes a long way.

Oxford AZ are continually 'tweeking' the current vaccine to respond to any slight alteration in the structure of Delta. In addition, Oxford AZ are now working on a new vaccine responding to the considerable increase in the Plague. Believe it or not it is still around. On a more positive note, the vaccine for Japanese Encephalitis is still available freely (not free). Positive cases in Thailand are more commonly found around rice fields.

[Bob20]

5 minutes ago, Guevara said:

Oxford AZ are continually 'tweeking' the current vaccine to respond to any slight alteration in the structure of Delta. In addition, Oxford AZ are now working on a new vaccine responding to the considerable increase in the Plague. Believe it or not it is still around. On a more positive note, the vaccine for Japanese Encephalitis is still available freely (not free). Positive cases in Thailand are more commonly found around rice fields.

All manufacturers continually R&D their vaccines, but they can't release and sell major tweaks without first re-applying for temporary approval for emergency use, so we would know about it.

[Poolie]

44 minutes ago, Guevara said:

At the end of the day, the Thai Government can defend it until the cows come home. More and more Governments around the Globe will not recognize it as an effective vaccine, whether you have 2 doses or 2000 doses. The longer Prayat uses this 'placebo', the longer the people of Thailand suffer. A very sad and frustrating situation.

Name the last three countries that said they  wont use Sinovac. Do not include countries with their own manufacturing set up.