Government says Sinovac works, despite claims of lower efficacy against variants

[PompeyLlama]

If it works so well why did my wife a nurse at a major BKK hospital get told by her bosses to have the AZ booster as soon as possible and that was a month ago.

[oldcpu]

46 minutes ago, PompeyLlama said:

If it works so well why did my wife a nurse at a major BKK hospital get told by her bosses to have the AZ booster as soon as possible and that was a month ago.

 ... And why do the producers of Pfizer and Moderna say boosters to their produced vaccines will be needed?

[Bob20]

4 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 ... And why do the producers of Pfizer and Moderna say boosters to their produced vaccines will be needed?

 

4 hours ago, PompeyLlama said:

If it works so well why did my wife a nurse at a major BKK hospital get told by her bosses to have the AZ booster as soon as possible and that was a month ago.

 

Because the vaccine's effect reduces over time...

https://thethaiger.com/talk/topic/3837-government-says-sinovac-works-despite-claims-of-lower-efficacy-against-variants/?do=findComment&comment=38108

I understand cynicism against big pharma, but they are right to publish these data. It's not for immediate sales promotion because their order books are full for ages as it is.

 

[oldcpu]

2 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

Because the vaccine's effect reduces over time...

Agreed.  Sinovac's antibodies also degrade with time.

Further, for user PompeyLlama, medical experts in Thailand have been studying the effect of adding an AstraZeneca jab after a person has taken two Sinovac jabs.  Their early results (which I have posted a couple of times on this forum) indicate that taking an AstraZeneca booster jab, a few weeks after the 2nd of two Sinovac jabs, results in an anti-body count FAR exceeding (superior to) that of only 2 Astra-Zeneca jabs.  That was a surprising result (to me) and also MOST interesting result.  ie 2-Sinovc + 1 AZ is superior to 2 AZ.

And, I should mention the antibodies after that AZ booster (after 2 Sinovac jabs) were also higher than that after only 2 Sinovac jabs.   So I think that is why the recommendation you were curious about.

I hope the studies they are doing, also look at the antibody effect of a Pfizer (and Moderna) booster after 2-Sinovac.

[JTCarius]

On 8/18/2021 at 11:23 AM, Poolie said:

A real-world study of ten millions of Chileans who received CoronaVac found it 66% effective against symptomatic COVID-19, 88% against hospitalization, 90% against ICU admissions, and 86% against deaths. In Brazil, after 75% of the population in Serrana, São Paulo received CoronaVac, preliminary results show deaths fell by 95%, hospitalizations by 86%, and symptomatic cases by 80%. In Indonesia, real world data from 128,290 healthcare workers showed 94% protection against symptomatic infection by the vaccine, beating results in clinical trials.

Them's facts folks.

Sources of data please.

Edited August 19, 2021 by JTCarius

[Bob20]

8 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Agreed.  Sinovac's antibodies also degrade with time.

Further, for user PompeyLlama, medical experts in Thailand have been studying the effect of adding an AstraZeneca jab after a person has taken two Sinovac jabs.  Their early results (which I have posted a couple of times on this forum) indicate that taking an AstraZeneca booster jab, a few weeks after the 2nd of two Sinovac jabs, results in an anti-body count FAR exceeding (superior to) that of only 2 Astra-Zeneca jabs.  That was a surprising result (to me) and also MOST interesting result.  ie 2-Sinovc + 1 AZ is superior to 2 AZ.

And, I should mention the antibodies after that AZ booster (after 2 Sinovac jabs) were also higher than that after only 2 Sinovac jabs.   So I think that is why the recommendation you were curious about.

I hope the studies they are doing, also look at the antibody effect of a Pfizer (and Moderna) booster after 2-Sinovac.

I agree with you that proper research is needed.

But how it's done in Thailand, without any research but immediately testing mixes on the population, with different timespans between jabs and many variables without standardisation, that's not serious research. That's empirical testing and you are no more than a guinea pig!

[Bob20]

5 minutes ago, JTCarius said:

Sources of data please.

Hi JTCarius, I know the paper and it's legit, but research is not about -one- paper. Because I can give you a paper with very bad results too. And some are sponsored and biased...

Science is about the total research and subsequent consensus. And -on average in all research papers- Sinovac is 51% effective.

That's the percentage that the manufacturer quotes also. And if it was more than 51% effective, the manufacturer would be the first to boast about it!

[Poolie]

1 hour ago, JTCarius said:

Sources of data please.

The big wide world.

[Poolie]

58 minutes ago, Bob20 said:

Hi JTCarius, I know the paper and it's legit, but research is not about -one- paper. Because I can give you a paper with very bad results too. And some are sponsored and biased...

Science is about the total research and subsequent consensus. And -on average in all research papers- Sinovac is 51% effective.

That's the percentage that the manufacturer quotes also. And if it was more than 51% effective, the manufacturer would be the first to boast about it!

In one study from Brazil, yes.

Glad you've spotted the difference between efficacy and effectiveness finally.

[PompeyLlama]

6 hours ago, Bob20 said:

Because the vaccine's effect reduces over time...

https://thethaiger.com/talk/topic/3837-government-says-sinovac-works-despite-claims-of-lower-efficacy-against-variants/?do=findComment&comment=38108

I understand cynicism against big pharma, but they are right to publish these data. It's not for immediate sales promotion because their order books are full for ages as it is.

I just stated a fact. The hospital said that due to increased risk all staff must have an AZ booster. 

If Sinovac was good enough then they would not have wasted money and time. 

I am not saying you are wrong just that this is what happened 

[oldcpu]

6 hours ago, PompeyLlama said:

 

If Sinovac was good enough then they would not have wasted money and time. 

Are any of the vaccines good enough?

People who have taken Pfizer and AstraZeneca have also died. Are they good enough if people still die?

Thailand is in a situation now, due to past tardiness, that it can't timely get Moderna, nor Pfizer ( aside from donations) nor sufficient AstraZeneca.

They could and can get Sinovac. Ideal? No. Better than the placebo BS that some ill informed post? Yes. Sinovac does save lives. It saves lives.

Does it make sense after giving Sinovac, when a trickle of other vaccines come available to try and boost efficacy? Of course.

Edited August 20, 2021 by oldcpu

[billywillyjones]

Sinovac is a traditional form of vaccine it may not be particularly effective but it also may not be particularly dangerous.  It is interesting to note that the Chinese have not been doing mRNA vaccines.

[Smithydog]

45 minutes ago, billywillyjones said:

It is interesting to note that the Chinese have not been doing mRNA vaccines.

That may be changing. Indications are that they are developing one and also seem to be looking for rights to locally manufacture an existing one.

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/china-to-approve-mrna-vaccine-soon

https://scrip.pharmaintelligence.informa.com/SC144358/How-A-Small-Chinese-Biotech-Is-Taking-On-mRNA-Vaccine-Giants

[DiJoDavO]

If it works, why does Pfizer first go to the important people? They just say this because they can't sell it to anyone 

[Bob20]

32 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

That may be changing. Indications are that they are developing one and also seem to be looking for rights to locally manufacture an existing one.

https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/china-to-approve-mrna-vaccine-soon

https://scrip.pharmaintelligence.informa.com/SC144358/How-A-Small-Chinese-Biotech-Is-Taking-On-mRNA-Vaccine-Giants

Well, that's easy. America won't sell them to China under the trade dispute.

But China, as always, will be quick to reverse engineer and copy the manufacturing process.

[oldcpu]

On 8/19/2021 at 3:20 PM, Guevara said:

At the end of the day, the Thai Government can defend it until the cows come home. More and more Governments around the Globe will not recognize it as an effective vaccine,

Actually a number of European countries have recognized Sinovac.

[shanghailoz]

Sinovac works well enough to provide adequate protection against serious illness/death.

None of the vaccines seem to be that good against the newer variants - i.e. Delta.

 

[vvdb.fr]

On 8/18/2021 at 3:31 PM, Bob20 said:

Je suis désolé de paraître dur, mais tout après la première phrase est purement inventé.

Pfizer a une efficacité de 94%, donc 6% des personnes peuvent tomber gravement malades ou mourir (pas 2% comme vous le dites et certainement pas 1000 fois moins mais seulement 16 fois moins).

Sinovac a 51% d'efficacité (selon le fabricant), donc 49% peuvent tomber gravement malades ou mourir encore. 

Et si le gouvernement prétend maintenant que Sinovac est presque 100% efficace et superbe, alors pourquoi le mélangent-ils avec AZ alors qu'ils peuvent rapidement obtenir autant de Sinovac qu'ils le souhaitent ? N'importe qui reconnaîtra immédiatement que vous ne le mélangez pas si c'est déjà parfait, donc ce n'est évidemment pas vrai.

Et pour le mélange de vaccins, qui est purement expérimental et non recommandé par aucun médecin spécialiste ou organisme de santé, il n'y a pas encore de chiffres statistiquement significatifs. Il peut très bien être dangereux et avoir encore moins de protection ou donner des effets secondaires ou des problèmes à long terme. Nous ne savons pas encore. Si quelqu'un veut être un sujet de test, je ne vous arrêterai pas.

je ne suis pas anti vaxxer. Mais s'il n'y a aujourd'hui que quelque chose d'inférieur disponible, j'attendrai avec plaisir et vivrai en attendant de manière responsable. Et si quelqu'un d'autre veut se faire injecter n'importe quel vaccin et/ou le mélanger avec un autre, c'est aussi sa prérogative.

Ne pensez tout simplement pas que tout est efficace et sûr parce que certains gouvernements le disent.

 

On 8/18/2021 at 3:31 PM, Bob20 said:

I am sorry to sound harsh, but everything after the first sentence is purely made up.

Pfizer has 94% efficacy, so 6% of people may get seriously ill or die (not 2% as you say and certainly not 1000 times less but only 16 times less).

Sinovac has 51% efficacy (according to the manufacturer), so 49% may get seriously ill or die still. 

And if the government now claim Sinovac is nearly 100% effective and superb, then why do they mix it with AZ whilst they can quickly get as much of Sinovac as they want? Anyone will immediately recognise that you don't mix it if it's perfect already, so it's obviously not true.

And for mixing vaccines, which is purely experimental and not recommended by any medical specialist or any health organisation anywhere, there are no statistically significant numbers yet. It may well be dangerous and have even less protection or give side effects or long term problems. We just don't know yet. If anyone wants to be a test subject, I won't stop you.

i'm no anti vaxxer. But if today there's only something inferior available, I'll happily wait and will meanwhile live responsibly. And if anyone else wants to have whatever vaccine injected in them and/or mix it with another, that's their prerogative too.

Just don't think it's all effective and safe because some government says it.

The efficacy that I am announcing is that with the Delta variant, English study (measured by hospitalizations) an Israeli study confirms

It has not escaped your notice that Delta is different from the one on which the phase 3 trials were done, that of Wuhan. And that it is much more contagious.

there is also a study on the decrease in the effectiveness of vaccines at 6 months, Pfizer and AstraZeneca are the same. (measured with antibody production)

all these facts shown that a third dose is needed

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by vvdb.fr

[Bob20]

11 minutes ago, vvdb.fr said:

The efficacy that I am announcing is that with the Delta variant, English study (measured by hospitalizations) an Israeli study confirms

It has not escaped your notice that Delta is different from the one on which the phase 3 trials were done, that of Wuhan. And that it is much more contagious.

there is also a study on the decrease in the effectiveness of vaccines at 6 months, Pfizer and AstraZeneca are the same. (measured with antibody production)

all these facts shown that a third dose is needed

Salut!

I think we are mostly in agreement, but maybe I replied to the wrong post

There was a post claiming wrong figures  and also claiming that the risk would be 1000 times less. 

Sorry, looks like that wasn't you.

I think the vaccines will be tweeked to include efficacy to newer strains and that should be the moment to give a third jab. I think until then, as long as there are shortages in supply, we should first think of the millions of unvaccinated people.

[vvdb.fr]

On 8/18/2021 at 7:25 AM, oldcpu said:

For those who may not have read such, here is a Thai language article that notes of a ongoing Thai study, that addresses mixing Sinovac and AstraZeneca. https://mgronline.com/qol/detail/9640000072391

My apologies to those who have seen me post this before, its not my intent to spam, but I have the impression many on this thread have not read such before.  Note that the Pfizer data should be ignored, as there was too small a sample of the Pfizer to provide a useful Pfizer plot.  

it is missing with 3 sinovac in this study, it is incomplete, there is a bias (Sinovac is bad).

Are all people infected with the same variant?

[Bob20]

12 minutes ago, vvdb.fr said:

it is missing with 3 sinovac in this study, it is incomplete, there is a bias (Sinovac is bad).

Are all people infected with the same variant?

Mixing was instigated by the government for reason of ineffectiveness of Sinovac and vaccine shortages. They then claimed that Sinovac alone was 100% effective ( there's another topic about this on the forum), so then: Why mix???

I think it's highly unethical to mix and match even before the full trials of the individual vaccines have finished phase III and before the temporary registrations have been changed into actual approval.

I'm clearly not anti-vaccine as you can read in my posts, but what is happening here is empirical testing. Most countries banned this on animals already. Here it's done on people...

MGRonline is a mostly political paper owned by one of the leaders of PAD and it's only one study so don't draw any conclusions from that.

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, vvdb.fr said:

it is missing with 3 sinovac in this study, it is incomplete, there is a bias (Sinovac is bad).

Are all people infected with the same variant?

I don't know why 2 Sinovac + booster Sinovac was not tested, but if I had to guess it would be because (1) 6 months desired between 2nd and 3rd Sinovac jab which was too long a timeframe for this ongoing study interim results, and (2) AstraZeneca is significantly cheaper in price than Sinovac and produced in Thailand, so if there is to be a booster jab it makes financial sense it should be the less expensive AstraZeneca.

But that is my speculation.

I would find data of 3 Sinovac interesting as I have read China is now adopting that approach.

[Guest]

Lol did they look at Singapore tiny island that is highly vaxxed with it? 

Whats more funny my fully vaxxed friend going to fight there as he is pro and got invited otherwise u can't get in apparently.

He still needs to quarantine and not allowed to leave room before or after fight, and after he back th Thailand he still need to quarantine cuz he won't be longer then required 21 days out of Thailand. 

Lest that sink in

[Poolie]

2 minutes ago, Xaos said:

Lol did they look at Singapore tiny island that is highly vaxxed with it? 

Whats more funny my fully vaxxed friend going to fight there as he is pro and got invited otherwise u can't get in apparently.

He still needs to quarantine and not allowed to leave room before or after fight, and after he back th Thailand he still need to quarantine cuz he won't be longer then required 21 days out of Thailand. 

Lest that sink in

Yes, hysterical...........

Jeeze........

[Guest]

3 hours ago, oldcpu said:

I don't know why 2 Sinovac + booster Sinovac was not tested, but if I had to guess it would be because (1) 6 months desired between 2nd and 3rd Sinovac jab which was too long a timeframe for this ongoing study interim results, and (2) AstraZeneca is significantly cheaper in price than Sinovac and produced in Thailand, so if there is to be a booster jab it makes financial sense it should be the less expensive AstraZeneca.

But that is my speculation.

I would find data of 3 Sinovac interesting as I have read China is now adopting that approach.

Orite u double shoot it first as it's ur idea, we stay in control group