Government says Sinovac works, despite claims of lower efficacy against variants

[Thaiger]

Amid growing calls for more mRNA doses to combat the spread of the Delta variant, the Thai government continues to defend the Sinovac vaccine. The Bangkok Post reports that the government plans to purchase another 12 million doses of the Chinese vaccine, citing good results from a study of people fully vaccinated with Sinovac. However, the public is calling on the government to procure more mRNA vaccines, such as Pfizer and Moderna, which are widely seen as more effective against the highly contagious Delta variant. At a press conference yesterday, the Public Health Ministry addressed the issue of the vaccine’s […]

The post Government says Sinovac works, despite claims of lower efficacy against variants appeared first on Thaiger News.

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[Malc-Thai]

Doesn't matter how many times the government say this, people just don't believe you... if it's that good why are you giving all your medical staff a Pfizer booster! After 2-3 months of being fully vaccinated with sinovac?

[Bangkok_Gary]

Follow the money...

[gazmo16]

Good old Government buying yet more of this stuff.

Please China can we have some rich tourists very soon now we have sucked up to you again  .

[Ttalk]

If forced at gunpoint to have an injection, it would be something that doesn't inject spike proteins, this being one of them.

[Poolie]

Remember folks, you don't have to have it if you dont want it?

Thats reality.

[Bob20]

The rest of the world has done its tests and has come to the conclusion that Sinovac is not as effective as mRNA vaccines and has virtually no efficacy against the delta strain. That's why so many front line staff who received it are now sick or have died which wouldn't happen if it was 98/77% effective. Everyone can pick one research paper with different (sponsored?) results. But you need to look at the collective data from all research.

Even Sinovac Biotech (the company itself) publishes only 51.38% efficacy against the original virus and they certainly will claim the maximum!

Also, at 465 baht per dose for Pfizer this is actually cheaper than Sinovac. The only problem is that they can't just order and quickly receive Pfizer vaccines, so they need to order much more already. Not start thinking about it in 6 months and then be at the bottom of the list again! Meanwhile, of course, they'll have to make up the numbers with other brands.

Now, if that is how they explain it, that would make some sense. But nobody believes that Sinovac is superior.

[gordo2613]

50% is better than nothing for a chance of not getting ill or developing symptoms leading to incapacitation or death. Having said that the Govt and VIP HiSo mob have all had AZ or Pfizer, I think China is forcing the deal on the Thai govt. Allegedly the Thai govt ordered AZ from Europe and Pfizer and there is supposed to be Moderna arriving in Sept that was ordered back in May, we'll see???  

[thai3]

There is a reason no first world country uses Sinovac, and it's the reason the Bangkok Dr just died from covid 19 despite 2 doses of this rubbish. The worst performing vaccine, if at all against delta, which costs about 4x AZ and they order millions more, Criminally irresponsible, no wonder they are trying to get out of prosecution with a let off law.

[oldcpu]

Despite the posts to the contrary, Sinovac, while not as good as AstraZeneca nor as good as Pfizer nor as good as Moderna, does help slightly reduce infection, and does work even better at reducing the risk of death.   Sinovac saves lives.  Yes, it saves lives.

There are accounts on the Internet of people dying despite having received 2 jabs of Pfizer, ...people dying despite having received 2 jabs of AstraZeneca.  

Even Pfizer and Moderna producers are talking that they may want to give boosters shots of their own vaccines to people fully vaccinated with their own Pfizer/Moderna vaccines.

This is not to say that Sinovac is superior - its clearly not. 

But Sinovac does help, and is available.  In contrast the ONLY Pfizer available in Thailand is that donated by USA.   The local Thai AstraZeneca facility won't even sell to Thailand the amount of AstraZeneca Thailand needs.  The feet dragging on ordering Moderna took so long that Thailand will be lucky to see much Moderna before the end of Q4-2021 if any.

What is the use of a superior vaccine if you can't get it in time??

However, despite it being expensive and nowhere as good as the mRNA vaccines, Sinovac IS available and it can be bought. it can be bought and delivered NOW.   Yes, NOW.

An ongong study which I have referenced on this forum and others, and posted an image from it, has shown that 1-Sinovac jab, followed by 1-AstraZeneca jab (ie a mix) can be given in 3 weeks, ... it is superior in anti-body production to 2-Sinovac jabs, and it is almost as good as 2-AstraZeneca jabs in anti-bodies, where it takes 8 to 12 weeks between AstraZeneca jabs to obtain its decent anti-body count.

So many kudos to the Thai government (after initial foot dragging) to finally get moving and obtaining vaccines NOW , and structuring the application appropriately to vaccinate Thai citizens (and foreigners) instead of waiting for Q4-2021 or Q1-2022 for Pfizer and Moderna that at present are no more than a 'pie in the sky' for Thailand. 

As the saying goes, the best vaccine is often the one you can get.  And right now, aside from USA donations, mRNA are not available.

Edited August 18, 2021 by oldcpu

[Poolie]

A real-world study of ten millions of Chileans who received CoronaVac found it 66% effective against symptomatic COVID-19, 88% against hospitalization, 90% against ICU admissions, and 86% against deaths. In Brazil, after 75% of the population in Serrana, São Paulo received CoronaVac, preliminary results show deaths fell by 95%, hospitalizations by 86%, and symptomatic cases by 80%. In Indonesia, real world data from 128,290 healthcare workers showed 94% protection against symptomatic infection by the vaccine, beating results in clinical trials.

Them's facts folks.

[JackIsAGoodBoy]

Ivecmectin is already being used in many countries countrywide like Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Peru, Nicaragua, Bolivia and Panama. https://ivmstatus.com/

Why the hell it is not used widely in Thailand?!

As a preventive measure over 80 percent, as an early treatment 70 percent, as late treatment about 40 percent improvement overall. 63 studies. As many know already, it is all in ivmmeta.com

[Bob20]

  On 8/18/2021 at 4:23 AM, Poolie said:

A real-world study of ten millions of Chileans who received CoronaVac found it 66% effective against symptomatic COVID-19, 88% against hospitalization, 90% against ICU admissions, and 86% against deaths. In Brazil, after 75% of the population in Serrana, São Paulo received CoronaVac, preliminary results show deaths fell by 95%, hospitalizations by 86%, and symptomatic cases by 80%. In Indonesia, real world data from 128,290 healthcare workers showed 94% protection against symptomatic infection by the vaccine, beating results in clinical trials.

Them's facts folks.

Expand  

No, that's not facts. That's individually handpicked studies with favourable results. You need to look at ALL data. Do you think that if a vaccine was THAT good, the company itself would publish only 51.38% efficacy (against only the original strain)? If it was really that good, they would shout it from the rooftops!

Edited August 18, 2021 by King Cotton
Minor typo fixed (shout for should!)

[oldcpu]

  On 8/18/2021 at 4:29 AM, Bob20 said:

No, that's not facts. That's individually handpicked studies with favourable results. You need to look at ALL data.

Expand  

Ok - then show us the negative data. 

[thai3]

  On 8/18/2021 at 4:21 AM, oldcpu said:

Despite the posts to the contrary, Sinovac, while not as good as AstraZeneca nor as good as Pfizer nor as good as Moderna, does help slightly reduce infection, and does work even better at reducing the risk of death.   Sinovac saves lives.  Yes, it saves lives.

There are accounts on the Internet of people dying despite having received 2 jabs of Pfizer, ...people dying despite having received 2 jabs of AstraZeneca.  

Even Pfizer and Moderna producers are talking that they may want to give boosters shots of their own vaccines to people fully vaccinated with their own Pfizer/Moderna vaccines.

This is not to say that Sinovac is superior - its clearly not. 

But Sinovac does help, and is available.  In contrast the ONLY Pfizer available in Thailand is that donated by USA.   The local Thai AstraZeneca facility won't even sell to Thailand the amount of AstraZeneca Thailand needs.  The feet dragging on ordering Moderna took so long that Thailand will be lucky to see much Moderna before the end of Q4-2021 if any.

What is the use of a superior vaccine if you can't get it in time??

However, despite it being expensive and nowhere as good as the mRNA vaccines, Sinovac IS available and it can be bought. it can be bought and delivered NOW.   Yes, NOW.

An ongong study which I have referenced on this forum and others, and posted an image from it, has shown that 1-Sinovac jab, followed by 1-AstraZeneca jab (ie a mix) can be given in 3 weeks, ... it is superior in anti-body production to 2-Sinovac jabs, and it is almost as good as 2-AstraZeneca jabs in anti-bodies, where it takes 8 to 12 weeks between AstraZeneca jabs to obtain its decent anti-body count.

So many kudos to the Thai government (after initial foot dragging) to finally get moving and obtaining vaccines NOW , and structuring the application appropriately to vaccinate Thai citizens (and foreigners) instead of waiting for Q4-2021 or Q1-2022 for Pfizer and Moderna that at present are no more than a 'pie in the sky' for Thailand. 

As the saying goes, the best vaccine is often the one you can get.  And right now, aside from USA donations, mRNA are not available.

Expand  

You admit not even as good as AZ and certainly not as good as the others, and it's more expensive, so why use it at all?

Edited August 18, 2021 by thai3

[Bob20]

  On 8/18/2021 at 4:21 AM, oldcpu said:

Despite the posts to the contrary, Sinovac, while not as good as AstraZeneca nor as good as Pfizer nor as good as Moderna, does help slightly reduce infection, and does work even better at reducing the risk of death.   Sinovac saves lives.  Yes, it saves lives.

There are accounts on the Internet of people dying despite having received 2 jabs of Pfizer, ...people dying despite having received 2 jabs of AstraZeneca.  

Even Pfizer and Moderna producers are talking that they may want to give boosters shots of their own vaccines to people fully vaccinated with their own Pfizer/Moderna vaccines.

This is not to say that Sinovac is superior - its clearly not. 

But Sinovac does help, and is available.  In contrast the ONLY Pfizer available in Thailand is that donated by USA.   The local Thai AstraZeneca facility won't even sell to Thailand the amount of AstraZeneca Thailand needs.  The feet dragging on ordering Moderna took so long that Thailand will be lucky to see much Moderna before the end of Q4-2021 if any.

What is the use of a superior vaccine if you can't get it in time??

However, despite it being expensive and nowhere as good as the mRNA vaccines, Sinovac IS available and it can be bought. it can be bought and delivered NOW.   Yes, NOW.

An ongong study which I have referenced on this forum and others, and posted an image from it, has shown that 1-Sinovac jab, followed by 1-AstraZeneca jab (ie a mix) can be given in 3 weeks, ... it is superior in anti-body production to 2-Sinovac jabs, and it is almost as good as 2-AstraZeneca jabs in anti-bodies, where it takes 8 to 12 weeks between AstraZeneca jabs to obtain its decent anti-body count.

So many kudos to the Thai government (after initial foot dragging) to finally get moving and obtaining vaccines NOW , and structuring the application appropriately to vaccinate Thai citizens (and foreigners) instead of waiting for Q4-2021 or Q1-2022 for Pfizer and Moderna that at present are no more than a 'pie in the sky' for Thailand. 

As the saying goes, the best vaccine is often the one you can get.  And right now, aside from USA donations, mRNA are not available.

Expand  

Basically, I agree that Thailand have to use Sinovac because of its availability and because it failed to order better alternatives earlier. If that's how they explain it, that's understandable.

But don't let the government claim that it's near 100% effective because that's simply not true.

As with everything else, and you are doing it in your post as well, it is easy to pick examples and individual studies. That way you can claim anything. You can find that someone died in a Volvo car, but the fact remains that they are worldwide the safest cars. Individual findings and publications prove nothing, as they can be biased and or sponsored. You have to look at consensus in thousands of independent scientific publications.

That's why the company states 51.38% efficacy and that's probably higher than the reality.

And please remember this: NO vaccine has been formally certified and approved! They have only been temporarily granted approval for use in this emergency situation.

And nothing is scientifically known about mixing vaccines. Papers have only recently been appearing and they overwhelmingly show that it should NOT be recommended practise. But not enough is known and again your example is no more than "my neighbour drinks a lot of coffee and has no Covid, so coffee prevents Covid". 

[Bob20]

  On 8/18/2021 at 4:34 AM, oldcpu said:

Ok - then show us the negative data. 

Expand  

My friend, your post was a copy and past from Wikipedia.

If that is how you find your "scientific data" I wish you good luck. Same if you blindly believe a government or any individual publication. I'm not here to convince you. You are free to inject whatever you choose

I'm a bit more picky...

[oldcpu]

  On 8/18/2021 at 4:44 AM, thai3 said:

You admit not even as good as AZ and certainly not as good as the others, and it's more expensive, so why use it at all?

Expand  

Why? Because it still saves lives, and its available.  As I noted, Thailand can not obtain the quantity of AstraZeneca it wants, which means Thailand can not vaccinated the # of people they want.

The mRNA vaccines are simply not available now, and in the mean time record number of people in Thailand are dying every week.

By mixing Sinovac and AstraZeneca, anti-body levels superior to 1xAstraZeneca jab, and close to that of 2 AstraZeneca jabs can be obtained.  

Thats why.

Again, I ask, what is the use of an mRNA vaccine if one can't get it in time?

[riclag]

  On 8/18/2021 at 4:21 AM, oldcpu said:

Despite the posts to the contrary, Sinovac, while not as good as AstraZeneca nor as good as Pfizer nor as good as Moderna, does help slightly reduce infection, and does work even better at reducing the risk of death.   Sinovac saves lives.  Yes, it saves lives.

There are accounts on the Internet of people dying despite having received 2 jabs of Pfizer, ...people dying despite having received 2 jabs of AstraZeneca.  

Even Pfizer and Moderna producers are talking that they may want to give boosters shots of their own vaccines to people fully vaccinated with their own Pfizer/Moderna vaccines.

This is not to say that Sinovac is superior - its clearly not. 

But Sinovac does help, and is available.  In contrast the ONLY Pfizer available in Thailand is that donated by USA.   The local Thai AstraZeneca facility won't even sell to Thailand the amount of AstraZeneca Thailand needs.  The feet dragging on ordering Moderna took so long that Thailand will be lucky to see much Moderna before the end of Q4-2021 if any.

What is the use of a superior vaccine if you can't get it in time??

However, despite it being expensive and nowhere as good as the mRNA vaccines, Sinovac IS available and it can be bought. it can be bought and delivered NOW.   Yes, NOW.

An ongong study which I have referenced on this forum and others, and posted an image from it, has shown that 1-Sinovac jab, followed by 1-AstraZeneca jab (ie a mix) can be given in 3 weeks, ... it is superior in anti-body production to 2-Sinovac jabs, and it is almost as good as 2-AstraZeneca jabs in anti-bodies, where it takes 8 to 12 weeks between AstraZeneca jabs to obtain its decent anti-body count.

So many kudos to the Thai government (after initial foot dragging) to finally get moving and obtaining vaccines NOW , and structuring the application appropriately to vaccinate Thai citizens (and foreigners) instead of waiting for Q4-2021 or Q1-2022 for Pfizer and Moderna that at present are no more than a 'pie in the sky' for Thailand. 

As the saying goes, the best vaccine is often the one you can get.  And right now, aside from USA donations, mRNA are not available.

Expand  

If you don't plan to travel in the near future disregard  this ! Many people do plan on international travel

Sounds like your very well versed in the data, possibilities, probabilities, studies and stats!

You missed one important possibility  .in regards to international travel !

There are some  uncertainties on whether countries will

accept Sinovacians and Thai  AZ vaccers.

Is your country on the sinovac restricted list , mine is !

https://visaguide.world/news/vaccine-checker-proof-of-immunity-for-travel/

Edited August 18, 2021 by riclag

[oldcpu]

  On 8/18/2021 at 4:49 AM, Bob20 said:

You have to look at consensus in thousands of independent scientific publications.

Expand  

Sure. Then please post the studies.  Show me the studies that confirm Sinovac does no good at all.

I am keen to read such.

I have seen papers that note Sinovac is not as good as some have hoped, but in EVERY case it was shown to do some good.

So please - show me the "consensus in thousands of independent scientific publications on this".

Frankly, I don't  think you can - because I don't think they they exist. Rather they simply show reduced efficacy.

  On 8/18/2021 at 4:49 AM, Bob20 said:

And nothing is scientifically known about mixing vaccines. Papers have only recently been appearing and they overwhelmingly show that it should NOT be recommended practise.

Expand  

That's not correct. Just the contrary.

Edited August 18, 2021 by oldcpu

[oldcpu]

  On 8/18/2021 at 5:04 AM, riclag said:

Is your country on the sinovac restricted list , mine is !

https://visaguide.world/news/vaccine-checker-proof-of-immunity-for-travel/

Expand  

I like to visit Canada.  It doesn't accept Sinovac, but it does accept AstraZeneca.

I also like to visit Europe. The EMA at present does not accept Japanese, nor Korean, nor Thai produced AstraZeneca.

China does not accept Pfizer (or at least they didn't a couple of months back - I don't know current status).

This 'vaccine' acceptance is massively political, and the politicians in both East and West are using this to gain political points, where sadly science does not matter to them.

Edited August 18, 2021 by oldcpu

[oldcpu]

  On 8/18/2021 at 4:59 AM, Bob20 said:

My friend, your post was a copy and past from Wikipedia.

Expand  

Wikipedia?  I have never visited there yet for Vaccine information.

But you have me curious. Please post here a link to the Wikipedia where you claim I copied and pasted.

I am VERY CURIOUS to read that. 

Or did you just make this up?

  

[riclag]

  On 8/18/2021 at 4:59 AM, Bob20 said:

My friend, your post was a copy and past from Wikipedia.

If that is how you find your "scientific data" I wish you good luck. Same if you blindly believe a government or any individual publication. I'm not here to convince you. You are free to inject whatever you choose

I'm a bit more picky...

Expand  

Spot on 

[Bob20]

  On 8/18/2021 at 5:07 AM, oldcpu said:

Sure. Then please post the studies.  Show me the studies that confirm Sinovac does no good at all.

I am keen to read such.

I have seen papers that note Sinovac is not as good as some have hoped, but in EVERY case it was shown to do some good.

So please - show me the "consensus in thousands of independent scientific publications on this".

Frankly, I don't  think you can - because I don't think they they exist. Rather they simply show reduced efficacy.

That's not correct. Just the contrary.

Expand  

From the WHO website today...

Enjoy the discussion and take whatever vaccine you like.

[oldcpu]

  On 8/18/2021 at 5:12 AM, Bob20 said:

From the WHO website today...

Enjoy the discussion and take whatever vaccine you like.

Expand  

Ahh yes ... So you believe everything from the WHO?  Yes ?

Then you note WHO has accepted Sinovac to the same extent as Moderna, Pfizer ... etc ..

Or do you just cherry pick ?