Afghanistan Has Fallen

[Benroon]

2 minutes ago, gummy said:

Well look at like this. A US Commander was saying today that he thought that after 20 year of training, arming with latest weaponry , that the Afghani military would and should have been a far better match for the poorly equipped Taliban. Well look how that worked out and the problem with Israel it has too many enemies.

Would be interesting if he had gone onto say why he thinks that's not the case. Was the training up to scratch ? surely this event happening now had been anticipated and planned for right ? 

it has too many ragtag enemies for sure - ok Saudi isn't a fan but they would be snookered by the americans. I always get the impression the Israelis would love for that region to kick off.

[mcambl61]

5 hours ago, PBS said:

Misinformation. Trump, contrary to his prior breast beating self promotion clearly signalled intent for US forces to depart Afghanistan within 18 months from the Doha agreement in 02/20 at the same time giving in to Taliban demands to release their followers from prison and so on  without enforceable guarantees. The final rot started from that point on. Biden added to existing US disastrous policy with the majority of the US public no longer wishing to sacrifice US treasure and money. In his usual M.O., no doubt trump will disclaim any responsibility whatsoever with the blind acceptance of his followers.

I notice no mention of the Hazaras in current reporting, among other matters, just demonstrates lack of concern one can expect other than "look there"  hand wringing over women's rights for public consumption.

Well now, trump derangement syndrome and the irrational emotional outrage aside, 

 

The agreement that Pompeo and trump agreed to was that the taliban would not be associated with al qaeda and there were clear on that point. 

 

In addition, the taliban did not make the aggressive moves under trump as it was made clear they would pay the price. 

 

Biden allowed Bagram to be vacated before getting the rest of the people out and they lost immediate air support. The taliban would not be able to do what they are doing if Bagram was still in operation. 

 

 

But, in closing, we really had no reason to keep propping up these corrupt backward people for any reason in the first place. 

 

None of that was Trump's doing. 

 

So, you are wrong. 

 

Leave it there. 

[Poolie]

46 minutes ago, JamesE said:

Jeez. Get your facts straight. We threatened to bomb Iran back to the Stone Age. There probably would have been some spillover due to the shared border but the threat was directed at Iran.

Extremely sorry. Mea culpa. Iran. What a difference it made eh?

[Fluke]

45 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

The alternative is now. Which is better?

It will happen sometime, its just a matter of when . 

Give Afghanistan back to the Taliban now , ten years time, 100 years time or USA stay there forever ?

[9S_]

Just now, Fluke said:

It will happen sometime, its just a matter of when

Now it is happening and no plan from the resident

[Stonker]

8 hours ago, 23RD said:

I spent 372 days in Afghanistan over 2 tours my Battalion lost 4 Soldiers KIA and 27 WIA but we inflicted at least 100 times that on the Taliban I've just watched the news and seen those bearded rats sitting in the President Palace in Kabul and Its left me saddened.

But I take pride that Soldiers (off many nations) battered the Taliban into hiding behind Women and Children only brave enough to come out into plain sight when we left like the rats they are.

But the biggest rat is sat in The White House Joseph Bejing Biden who sold us out but what can you expect from a Man that can't protect his own People.

God bless the Soldiers who fought in Afghanistan over the past 20 years only to be sold out by Joe Biden a Man with less of a morale compass than The Taliban.

Unfortunately for all the servicemen whose lives were lost and wasted in Afghanistan, as in Iraq, "battering" people in their own country who don't want you there doesn't win either wars or hearts and minds.

 

It was simply a war that couldn't be won, and the servicemen sent there to do the impossible deserved better.

[Fluke]

13 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

Now it is happening and no plan from the resident

They have been planning an exit for the last 20 years . 

Trying to install democracy and a democratic government to keep the Taliban at bay .

That plan didnt even last one day , the democratic Government fell within hours of US forces leaving 

[Sjoerd]

2 hours ago, 9S_ said:

And they elected a President, had female judges, lawmakers, journalists and girls could go to school. The popular shows in Afghanistan were those America Got Talent style shows. 
 

No joke a female journalist commented they just had a film festival. So sad Biden abandoned the Afghans.

Sure (and I wished the Taliban wouldn't exist at all, that Afghanistan would be as in the 1960-1970s) , but there are other tribes (than those who enjoy festivals) who don't like western life style. A western country shouldn't interfere in a (Muslim) country with so many tribes and widen the gap between these tribes, causing a civil war and refugees ! Another example: people in Lybia now say: "We wish the West hadn't interfered and Ghadaffi was still here. He was a cruel dictator, but at least there was piece, we had jobs and a life. Now there is chaos and death." People in Iraq will probably say likewise.

[9S_]

4 minutes ago, Stonker said:

It was simply a war that couldn't be won

For a war that couldn’t be won 

Afghanistan elected their own presidents more than once

Girls could go to school, girls could become lawyers, journalists, politicians, judges and celebrities

Kids can enjoy different forms of music. There’s countless videos of Afghans enjoying breakdancing. 
 

People can play music in the street. 
 

That was victory for the Afghan people suffering under the brutalization of a 40 year regime. 
 

Afghanistan survived under Bush, Obama and Trump

Afghanistan fell under Biden

[9S_]

2 minutes ago, Sjoerd said:

Another example: people in Lybia now say: "We wish the West hadn't interfered and Ghadaffi was still here. He was a cruel dictator, but at least there was piece, we had jobs and a life. Now there is chaos and death.

Joe Biden did that too!!

[BlueSphinx]

3 minutes ago, Sjoerd said:

Sure ...

Not topic-related > but read Private Message I sent you  -  Peter

[Stonker]

12 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

For a war that couldn’t be won 

Afghanistan elected their own presidents more than once

Girls could go to school, girls could become lawyers, journalists, politicians, judges and celebrities

Kids can enjoy different forms of music. There’s countless videos of Afghans enjoying breakdancing. 
 

People can play music in the street. 
 

That was victory for the Afghan people suffering under the brutalization of a 40 year regime. 
 

Afghanistan survived under Bush, Obama and Trump

Afghanistan fell under Biden

Unfortunately breakdancing in the street doesn't win wars.

[vlad]

6 hours ago, MrStretch said:

I completely disagree.  The Taliban has never honored one agreement they've made with anyone.  They are singularly minded in their purpose and would have pursued exactly the same actions whether the US or Allah himself had engaged with them.

I realize that there will be a lot of horrible things happening in Afghanistan now, but if the world can contain them within their own borders, then that's the best we can hope for.

No one has ever won a war in or with that country, dating back to Alexander the Great.  It was a non-winnable exercise from the beginning.  We should have learned from the Russians' failure before we went there.

Wrong MrStretch we went across the English channel and defeated the Third Reich on there pitch in 1944.

[Zool]

oops...

 

[Stonker]

4 hours ago, thai3 said:

Don't see it as 'fallen to the Taliban' the country always was the Taliban. Almost all of them want sharia law and strict Islamic rule, that's why there was no resistance to them walking in and taking over. Now they have it, welcome to the middle ages again.

That's the view prevalent in the West, but it's completely incorrect and the failure, at least at the top, to understand how wrong it is was the main reason why the Western intervention was doomed.

 

Almost all of them DON'T want Sharia law and strict Islamic rule, but it's simply the least worst option and better than the alternative which was (and is) local rule by local warlords, with a regime of rape, abuse, anarchy and terror across a divided country.

 

The Taliban simply offered an alternative to that - the only alternative, as what the West was offering was never a viable option for Afghanistan.

 

The West could have had some influence back in the late 80's / early 90's after the Soviet withdrawal, when the West's assistance had given them some popularity,  but any chance of that, however slim it was, was lost when the US reneged on its promise of a few million $'s for infrastructure for roads, electricity, hospitals and schools and instead they just left them to it.

 

It isn't a question of wanting the Taliban and Sharia law - it's a question of it just being better than the alternative, and the West has never offered an alternative, or understood that Western democracy wasn't an option.

 

 

[Fester]

34 minutes ago, Sjoerd said:

Sure (and I wished the Taliban wouldn't exist at all, that Afghanistan would be as in the 1960-1970s) , but there are other tribes (than those who enjoy festivals) who don't like western life style. A western country shouldn't interfere in a (Muslim) country with so many tribes and widen the gap between these tribes, causing a civil war and refugees ! Another example: people in Lybia now say: "We wish the West hadn't interfered and Ghadaffi was still here. He was a cruel dictator, but at least there was piece, we had jobs and a life. Now there is chaos and death." People in Iraq will probably say likewise.

It's all a huge shame but I agree with the suggestion that interference can be more damaging than none.

Now, the effort put in by the US and NATO to give Afghans aid, education, training and modern equipment, with an army and air force numerically larger and theoretically far more capable than the Taliban seems to have been wasted. Given the rate of this recent rapid collapse, the Afghan forces could not have fought the Taliban in any meaningful sense of the word and it seems that there was not the will to do so. The whole mess is another wasteful shame, especially in terms of lives lost, horrific injuries with more murder and violence likely. But this is Afghanistan, where, possibly like Iraq and Libya, historically, the people seem not to desire that much change. 

 

[Fester]

29 minutes ago, Zool said:

oops...

You tell 'em, Joe.

[vlad]

History told us the Red Army could not defeat the Taliban with sophisticated weaponry at the time. The Taliban had AK 47S. People should have realized these are not simply Goat herders as someone said, they used different tactics that worked to there advantage. America decided to stop them only after terrorist's atrocities happened on US soil. In 20 years and billions of your Tax money they armed the Afghan army to defend themselves against the Taliban, as we now know the first sigh'n of conflict they simply dropped there weapons and ran away with there leader leaving the Taliban enough up to date weapons to defend themselves. I didn't see US troops storming into Cambodia and kicking out the Khmer Rouge on Humanitarian grounds.

[Sjoerd]

1 hour ago, 9S_ said:

Joe Biden did that too!!

Not correct: Biden: I was right about Libya - POLITICOPOLITICOSearchSearchClose
Biden replied that he had "argued strongly" within the White House "against going ... to Libya," a stance that put him at odds with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton

[vlad]

4 minutes ago, Sjoerd said:

Not correct: Biden: I was right about Libya - POLITICOPOLITICOSearchSearchClose
Biden replied that he had "argued strongly" within the White House "against going ... to Libya," a stance that put him at odds with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton

Here we go i knew it wouldn't be long before Hillary was brought into it. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by vlad

[poohy]

• The British Empire  couldn't do it 
• The Russians couldn't do it 
• The Americans and their allies haven't

it comes as little surprise 

[9S_]

8 minutes ago, Sjoerd said:

Not correct: Biden: I was right about Libya - POLITICOPOLITICOSearchSearchClose
Biden replied that he had "argued strongly" within the White House "against going ... to Libya," a stance that put him at odds with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton

That was in 2016. 
 

Here he is in 2011

"NATO got it [getting rid of Ghaddafi] right”

Not to mention Former CIA Director and US Department of Defense Robert Gates said Biden has been wrong on every single foreign policy decision for 40 years

[Stonker]

2 hours ago, JamesE said:

Jeez. Get your facts straight. We threatened to bomb Iran back to the Stone Age. There probably would have been some spillover due to the shared border but the threat was directed at Iran.

FWIW, since you're telling @Poolie to get his facts straight, the US threat was first to Afghanistan, to bomb them up to the stone age under Bill Clinton, then to  Iraq, according to a memo allegedly from Rumsfeld to  George W Bush, then to Pakistan according to Gen Musharraf following a threat from Richard Armitage if they didn't co-operate with the US - and that was widely reported as extending to bombing Afghanistan "back to the stone age."

 

So Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan.

 

Not Iran - that was an Israeli threat with an EMP attack, although bombing Iran "back to the stone age" was how the Sunday Times reported it on 9 September 2012.

 

Sorry. 

[mcambl61]

11 minutes ago, 9S_ said:

That was in 2016. 
 

Here he is in 2011

"NATO got it [getting rid of Ghaddafi] right”

Not to mention Former CIA Director and US Department of Defense Robert Gates said Biden has been wrong on every single foreign policy decision for 40 years

Biden is a career corrupt dementia ridden stooge and a puppet of the former Obama administration idiots who are making every single decision. 

 

The ridiculous community organizer Marxist mantra is in full control to destroy the country. 

[PBS]

1 hour ago, mcambl61 said:

Well now, trump derangement syndrome and the irrational emotional outrage aside, 

The agreement that Pompeo and trump agreed to was that the taliban would not be associated with al qaeda and there were clear on that point. 

In addition, the taliban did not make the aggressive moves under trump as it was made clear they would pay the price. 

Biden allowed Bagram to be vacated before getting the rest of the people out and they lost immediate air support. The taliban would not be able to do what they are doing if Bagram was still in operation. 

But, in closing, we really had no reason to keep propping up these corrupt backward people for any reason in the first place. 

None of that was Trump's doing. 

So, you are wrong. 

Leave it there. 

No irrational emotions or TDS on my part - irrational thoughts and delusion are the domain of trump world. Pompeo was yet another utterly compromised trump sycophant. AL Qaeda was not the prominent Islamist non Taliban threat in Afghanistan during trump's presidency, it was IS.

trump has no responsibility for US policy mistakes? Guess you've forgotten he was President for four years.

Sure the government of Afghanistan was hugely corrupt and other ills, but never resolved by any US Administration. Approx 100,000 Afghans were killed opposing the Taliban, to dismiss their suffering is ignoble.