News Forum - Thai democracy at risk following Pheu Thai’s exclusion of MFP in coalition

[KhaoYai]

On 8/25/2023 at 10:06 PM, Thaidup said:

It is simply hilarious how some people find fault in how politics in Thailand is centered around its current constitution (which the issue regarding is due to expire next year anyway) put simply, the government is following the constitution,

Here I believe you are refering to the fact that The Senate has to approve any incoming government/Prime Minister?  Do you actually believe that will be repealed?  Move Forward were clearly going to make changes that would severely curtail the power that the generals hold. They also wished to amend the country's draconian Lesse Majeste rules, end the brewing duopoly etc.etc.etc - basically make a start at creating a true democracy.  They also wanted an end to the general's hold on power.  Pita was denied the job.

When proposing the new constitution the generals claimed that they had fixed the faults that existed and arrived at a constitution that would lead to peace and harmony - negating the need for any further coups.  Basically, vote for this and there will be no more coups.

What they failed to tell the people was that the constitution of 2018 guaranteed that in the future The Senate would decide who runs the country, not the electorate.  And that's exactly what happened in the very next general election. 

The Senate have only agreed to the Pheu Thai Prime Minister because the party agreed to go back on much of their manifesto which contained several policies similar to those of Move Forward.

And you seriously believe that they are going to remove the very safeguards that fill their trough and allow them to promise no more coups? What was the point of creating The Senate with its powers in the first place - for a year? They denied the result of a landslide vote and created even more bad feeling for just a year?

So next year Pheu Thai will be able to bring back the manifesto pledges they made then dropped will they? Come on, you are surely not saying any of that will actually come about?

I'll admit, I haven't studied the detail but even if I did, the only thing that would make me believe the generals have inserted a policy which means and end to their power is actually seeing it happen. There will almost certainly be a 'get out clause' - there always is with Thai politics.

I think they know their time is limited but I don't think they intend letting their gravy train dry up any time soon.

Watch this space and see what they cook up with Pheu Thai to keep the status quo.

[KhaoYai]

On 8/25/2023 at 10:06 PM, Thaidup said:

Is this passive colonialism? We couldn't colonize them so force our politics on them? Or is it frustration out of not being able to control what they do?

Passive colonialism?  I spend most of my spare time with Thai's and I can tell you they want true democracy. I think that was clear from the election results.  They are sick and tired of corruption and the lack of social mobility. 

In terms of the economy, on the surface Thailand appears to have done well, compared to other Asian economies over the last 21 years that I've been involved with the country.  However, the poor people who live around my area are still just as poor as they were.  Yes, many have cars, pick ups, TV's and computers now but have you seen the loan terms that they accept to purchase those pick ups? 84 month terms are now common on car loans. Most of the people that I know around Khao Yai/Pak Chong have crippling debts whilst there are 1 bedroom condos in Khao Yai on sale at 15 million baht - nobody local is buying them but you can guess who is!

Thailand's economic success does not appear to have been shared equally by any measure.  I know people that still work 6 days per week,10 hours per day in a factory with no aircon and make just enough to live on.  I have friends in Bangkok however, friends who's parents were just rich enough to pay for them to finish their schooling and go on to university, those friends earn salaries between 45,000 and 110,000 per month. Quite often the decision of those families to send one child to university was at the expense of a sibling who left school at 14.

They're told they have democracy and can decide their future, however - the army's version of democracy does not include freedom of speech - it doesn't even allow the government the people chose. At a time when a new constitution was to be decided by referendum, opposition parties were denied the chance to campaign and show the people exactly what the new constitution contained.

Demonstrations, even gatherings were banned no matter how peaceful they were. More lately, the demonstrations that were initially 'tolerated' were quickly put down when they became serious.

I will agree with you that nothing's changed - no it hasn't. The majority of Thai people still live in or around what most of us would consider poverty. They have always been shafted - you're right, nothing's changed.

Now, you might say that inequality is rife in many countries - not just Thailand and I'd agree with you.  However, its Thailand we're discussing here and I can tell you that someone living on the minimum wage in the UK is likely to be a lot better off than their counterparts in Thailand. 

(by the way I'm using the UK as a comparison purely because I'm from there - not to make the numbers fit)

Whilst life expectancy in Thailand has risen over the last few decades its still almost 5 years shorter than the UK's (currently 77.74 against the UK's average of 81.77). I believe improvements in Thailand's health system have contributed to that.  However, and there is no data available for this, I get a feeling that the improvements are at the expense of wellness.  More and more people in Thailand seem to have chronic illnesses.  I know of 2 people who have things wrong with them that are completely curable in the UK but have to attend hospital for regular treatment in Thailand.  Its quite possible that the improvements in life expectancy have been achieved at the expense of the people's overall health.

I can't speak for others but I'm certainly not engaging in any form of 'passive colonialism' - I just want to see the people of the country where I have decided to live, get a fair deal, enjoy a better life and more than anything, make their own decisions.

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by KhaoYai

[cowslip]

1 hour ago, KhaoYai said:

Passive colonialism? 

I'm not sure what planet Thaidup has been tied up on but clearly completely out of touch - I'd say that almost every post he has made is not just an arguable opinion, it is actually downright incorrect.

[ShaunSheep]

Can we please stop pretending that elections or politicians make a lick of difference anywhere in the world. COVID showed us quite clearly W.H.O. is really in control, the UN, the world economic forum, the world health organisation. Who controls them may be a conversation for another day.

[Grumpish]

1 hour ago, ShaunSheep said:

Can we please stop pretending that elections or politicians make a lick of difference anywhere in the world. COVID showed us quite clearly W.H.O. is really in control, the UN, the world economic forum, the world health organisation. Who controls them may be a conversation for another day.

And another flat earth anti-vaxx conspiracy theorist crawls out of the woodwork.Why don't you just come out as a stalking horse for the lizard people straight away, or are you too scared of what the Illuminati might do to you?

[KhaoYai]

11 hours ago, ShaunSheep said:

Can we please stop pretending that elections or politicians make a lick of difference anywhere in the world. COVID showed us quite clearly W.H.O. is really in control, the UN, the world economic forum, the world health organisation. Who controls them may be a conversation for another day.

Whilst I believe that most governments/politicians do what they do to line

their own pockets - your statement is pure conspiracy theorist rubbish.

To a varying degree, depending on the country, the people do have power through their vote.  There is no doubt corruption at all levels and politicians are often very guilty of 'do as I say, not as I do' attitudes - countries are free to make their own rules and construct individual policies.

Quite where you get the WHO being in control theory from baffles me - throughout Covid, many countries were at odds with the WHO's advice and plowed their own furrows.

Countries are far to selfish to enter into collaboative conspiracies - take for example Trump taking the USA out of the Paris Accord.

I know that in my country - the UK, politicians are finding it much harder to carry out corrupt, self serving activities because the freedom of the press to investigate them is strong and gaining momentum.

That is not to say that conspiracies don't go on but in countries that have true democracy, they are far harder to enact.  The UK has a fully independent judiciary which is feared by politicians. Any policy, governmental or otherwise is open to scrutiny - the UK may abide by UN resolutions or veto them - that's because the UN itself is a democratic organisation.

Now, you may say you've never mentioned some of the things I refer to but I recognise the underlying 'spirit' of your claims - I've seen them before................The Great Reset?  Covid was the construct of an elite group - designed to put us all back in our place?

Total poppycock, there's far to much nationalistic selfishness for any group conspiracy to ever gain momentum in 'controling the world'.

You think too much, or most likely read too much of what the conspiracy loonies spread on the web.

The internet is both our saviour and our executioner - I can find the information I require in seconds on the one hand but the internet also gives voice to nutters that have little more to do with their time than make up and spread crap.

To coin a phrase 'you need to get out more'.

[cowslip]

58 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Whilst I believe that most governments/politicians do what they do to line

their own pockets - your statement is pure conspiracy theorist rubbish.

To a varying degree, depending on the country, the people do have power through their vote.  There is no doubt corruption at all levels and politicians are often very guilty of 'do as I say, not as I do' attitudes - countries are free to make their own rules and construct individual policies.

Quite where you get the WHO being in control theory from baffles me - throughout Covid, many countries were at odds with the WHO's advice and plowed their own furrows.

Countries are far to selfish to enter into collaboative conspiracies - take for example Trump taking the USA out of the Paris Accord.

I know that in my country - the UK, politicians are finding it much harder to carry out corrupt, self serving activities because the freedom of the press to investigate them is strong and gaining momentum.

That is not to say that conspiracies don't go on but in countries that have true democracy, they are far harder to enact.  The UK has a fully independent judiciary which is feared by politicians. Any policy, governmental or otherwise is open to scrutiny - the UK may abide by UN resolutions or veto them - that's because the UN itself is a democratic organisation.

Now, you may say you've never mentioned some of the things I refer to but I recognise the underlying 'spirit' of your claims - I've seen them before................The Great Reset?  Covid was the construct of an elite group - designed to put us all back in our place?

Total poppycock, there's far to much nationalistic selfishness for any group conspiracy to ever gain momentum in 'controling the world'.

You think too much, or most likely read too much of what the conspiracy loonies spread on the web.

The internet is both our saviour and our executioner - I can find the information I require in seconds on the one hand but the internet also gives voice to nutters that have little more to do with their time than make up and spread crap.

To coin a phrase 'you need to get out more'.

THere are a lot of conspiracy theorists on this thread - all it does is show how poor their thinking is...

 

[cowslip]

Just now, cowslip said:

THere are a lot of conspiracy theorists on this thread - all it does is show how poor their thinking is...

They really need a serious dose of critical thinking - sadly they don't even know what that is, let alone engage in it. ...and the worst part is it turns any discussion into pigeon chess.

[TheDirtyDurian]

1 hour ago, cowslip said:

THere are a lot of conspiracy theorists on this thread - all it does is show how poor their thinking is...

Good work with da crayons there. 

You is a talented artiste. 

[Thaidup]

On 8/27/2023 at 6:03 PM, KhaoYai said:

Thailand is neither a constitutional monarchy or a democratic monarchy not that there is much difference between the two.

What it is and what it resembles are two completely different things:

The country claims to be a 'Constitutional Monarchy' with the government decided by democratic elections.

What it resembles is:

A monarchy with a few more members of the 'family' - those additional members being the generals and elite families. A monarchy that tries to kid the people that they have democratic rights but fixes a constitution in such a way that those rights are actually taken away - i.e. the recent elections.

In either a constitutional monarchy or a democratic monarchy, the judiciary is supposed to be independent.  I don't think anyone believes that Thailand has an independent judiciary.

The introduction of the senate means that the actual rulers can call the country democratic but remain in control of power remotely.

So, let's not get bogged down in names - let's deal with how things are.

When the people choose who they wish to control the country after consideration of that party's manifesto but are then denied that government by a constitutional rule that many of them were not even aware existed - that country cannot in any way be called democratic.

The fact that the people voted in that rule without knowing it is a seperate argument.

Ok, So what happened? the major seated party had about 30% of the vote? so 70% voted against them?

It's not rocket surgery or brain science.

[Thaidup]

23 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Passive colonialism?  I spend most of my spare time with Thai's and I can tell you they want true democracy. I think that was clear from the election results.  They are sick and tired of corruption and the lack of social mobility. 

In terms of the economy, on the surface Thailand appears to have done well, compared to other Asian economies over the last 21 years that I've been involved with the country.  However, the poor people who live around my area are still just as poor as they were.  Yes, many have cars, pick ups, TV's and computers now but have you seen the loan terms that they accept to purchase those pick ups? 84 month terms are now common on car loans. Most of the people that I know around Khao Yai/Pak Chong have crippling debts whilst there are 1 bedroom condos in Khao Yai on sale at 15 million baht - nobody local is buying them but you can guess who is!

Thailand's economic success does not appear to have been shared equally by any measure.  I know people that still work 6 days per week,10 hours per day in a factory with no aircon and make just enough to live on.  I have friends in Bangkok however, friends who's parents were just rich enough to pay for them to finish their schooling and go on to university, those friends earn salaries between 45,000 and 110,000 per month. Quite often the decision of those families to send one child to university was at the expense of a sibling who left school at 14.

They're told they have democracy and can decide their future, however - the army's version of democracy does not include freedom of speech - it doesn't even allow the government the people chose. At a time when a new constitution was to be decided by referendum, opposition parties were denied the chance to campaign and show the people exactly what the new constitution contained.

Demonstrations, even gatherings were banned no matter how peaceful they were. More lately, the demonstrations that were initially 'tolerated' were quickly put down when they became serious.

I will agree with you that nothing's changed - no it hasn't. The majority of Thai people still live in or around what most of us would consider poverty. They have always been shafted - you're right, nothing's changed.

Now, you might say that inequality is rife in many countries - not just Thailand and I'd agree with you.  However, its Thailand we're discussing here and I can tell you that someone living on the minimum wage in the UK is likely to be a lot better off than their counterparts in Thailand. 

(by the way I'm using the UK as a comparison purely because I'm from there - not to make the numbers fit)

Whilst life expectancy in Thailand has risen over the last few decades its still almost 5 years shorter than the UK's (currently 77.74 against the UK's average of 81.77). I believe improvements in Thailand's health system have contributed to that.  However, and there is no data available for this, I get a feeling that the improvements are at the expense of wellness.  More and more people in Thailand seem to have chronic illnesses.  I know of 2 people who have things wrong with them that are completely curable in the UK but have to attend hospital for regular treatment in Thailand.  Its quite possible that the improvements in life expectancy have been achieved at the expense of the people's overall health.

I can't speak for others but I'm certainly not engaging in any form of 'passive colonialism' - I just want to see the people of the country where I have decided to live, get a fair deal, enjoy a better life and more than anything, make their own decisions.

Can't agree with you more my Pommy friend. However I might suggest that the UK life expectancy being longer is due to the high amount of Thai and other immigrants becoming citizens over the last 30 years and the Thai being down is because of all the farangs becoming citizens here I mean? have you seen the size of the Thais latlely?

[cowslip]

5 hours ago, TheDirtyDurian said:

Good work with da crayons there. 

You is a talented artiste. 

...and that's all you see in that?

[Thaidup]

On 8/28/2023 at 12:57 AM, KhaoYai said:

Here I believe you are refering to the fact that The Senate has to approve any incoming government/Prime Minister?  Do you actually believe that will be repealed?  Move Forward were clearly going to make changes that would severely curtail the power that the generals hold. They also wished to amend the country's draconian Lesse Majeste rules, end the brewing duopoly etc.etc.etc - basically make a start at creating a true democracy.  They also wanted an end to the general's hold on power.  Pita was denied the job.

When proposing the new constitution the generals claimed that they had fixed the faults that existed and arrived at a constitution that would lead to peace and harmony - negating the need for any further coups.  Basically, vote for this and there will be no more coups.

What they failed to tell the people was that the constitution of 2018 guaranteed that in the future The Senate would decide who runs the country, not the electorate.  And that's exactly what happened in the very next general election. 

The Senate have only agreed to the Pheu Thai Prime Minister because the party agreed to go back on much of their manifesto which contained several policies similar to those of Move Forward.

And you seriously believe that they are going to remove the very safeguards that fill their trough and allow them to promise no more coups? What was the point of creating The Senate with its powers in the first place - for a year? They denied the result of a landslide vote and created even more bad feeling for just a year?

So next year Pheu Thai will be able to bring back the manifesto pledges they made then dropped will they? Come on, you are surely not saying any of that will actually come about?

I'll admit, I haven't studied the detail but even if I did, the only thing that would make me believe the generals have inserted a policy which means and end to their power is actually seeing it happen. There will almost certainly be a 'get out clause' - there always is with Thai politics.

I think they know their time is limited but I don't think they intend letting their gravy train dry up any time soon.

Watch this space and see what they cook up with Pheu Thai to keep the status quo.

I don't know if you were living here in 2014? I was, and then after the west was condemming the junta, what happened? nothing the country prospered and my exchange rate went down and down, I lost 30% of exchange from Aus since the junta was in power. then the Junta said 5 years you can vote, what happened? they voted, now they voted again, and as I suggested in another post, the leading vote winner only got around 30% of the vote,This would suggest that 70 % voted for someone else, or against that particular choice? so this is why they cant expect to have a prime-minister, normally a democracy would need 51%

[cowslip]

2 minutes ago, Thaidup said:

normally a democracy would need 51%

nonsense - that's not how PMs get elected in democracies. No British Prime Minister has ever had more than 50% of the votes in a general election. Neither has an Australian Prime Minister has ever had more than 50% of the votes in a federal election. 

[Thaidup]

24 minutes ago, cowslip said:

nonsense - that's not how PMs get elected in democracies. No British Prime Minister has ever had more than 50% of the votes in a general election. Neither has an Australian Prime Minister has ever had more than 50% of the votes in a federal election. 

Just proving my point? That the people don't vote for their leader in a "democracy" the political leaders do, in other words "The Elite" not the people's choice, but who the Elites feel will do as they desire? And then if that "selected" leader does not do as they desire they will find a means to replace them? No? Yes?you tell me if that is a "democracy"

[cowslip]

38 minutes ago, Thaidup said:

Just proving my point? That the people don't vote for their leader in a "democracy" the political leaders do, in other words "The Elite" not the people's choice, but who the Elites feel will do as they desire? And then if that "selected" leader does not do as they desire they will find a means to replace them? No? Yes?you tell me if that is a "democracy"

you really don't understand democracy do you? You're trying to say it is the same as  simple majority or "mob" rule.

[Marc26]

2 minutes ago, cowslip said:

you really don't understand democracy do you? You're trying to say it is the same as  simple majority or "mob" rule.

We've discovered @Thaidup doesn't understand all that much

 

So we are being more kind to him now, giving his disability   :)

[KhaoYai]

4 hours ago, Thaidup said:

Ok, So what happened? the major seated party had about 30% of the vote? so 70% voted against them?

It's not rocket surgery or brain science.

What happened?  Depends on what election/referendum you are talking about.  I rarely take much notice because the result has usually been a foregone conclusion since Chan-O-Cha and his boys 'returned the country to democracy' - democracy their style that is.  One thing I do remember clearly, even if not when it was - is that one of his boys made a major cock-up in his maths when adding the votes up for Nakhon Ratchasima.  The reported total of votes cast came to 1.1 million - across all parties. The 'mistake' was that there were only 900,000 people eligible to vote.  Given that in any election, a proportion of the electorate don't vote - that was some result.  I'm sure I don't have to tell you who's party received the most votes.

What I do know is that in the latest election Move Forward won 151 seats against Pheu Thai's 141.  That was an increase of 70 seats for Move Forward. Pheu Thai also gained 5 seats on a manifesto that although not as strong as Move Forward's on reform, contained some similar reformist policies.  The major loser was the old school conservative,military affiliated Palang Pracharath party that lost 76 seats.

If the election had not been hobbled by The Senate there would have been a coalition of over 300 seats held by parties promising reform - reform that would threaten the military/establishment.  Instead, we now have a coalition lead by Pheu Thai who were 'persuaded' to drop much of their reformist policies in return for the support of other parties - notably Prayuth's far right United Thai Nation party.

So basically, the electorate overwhelmingly voted for parties promising reform but that reform will not be achieved as its no longer on the menu - another 4 years of the country standing still in political terms.

[Thaidup]

4 hours ago, cowslip said:

nonsense - that's not how PMs get elected in democracies. No British Prime Minister has ever had more than 50% of the votes in a general election. Neither has an Australian Prime Minister has ever had more than 50% of the votes in a federal election. 

Ok, so no different than in Thailand. The PM is not necessarily the one who gets the most votes, its who the party's decide to present and than the government will decide by vote, then if successful will ask for permission from the monarch. the monarch can deny them no?

[Thaidup]

I do find it Ironic how now some of you are explaining to me that the Thai style of forming a government is basically the same as Australian or UK and yet is and is a democratic form of government yet I point out the topic header that states "Democracy at risk" and yet the Thais did basically the same.

So you can see how in the end that all agree democracy was never at risk here unless it was only at "risk" because the person you wanted to be PM did not get that post.

Its basic democracy as is in the UK and AUS, same oll same oll.

Who won in Itally? who is winning in Argentina? Who won the Dutch elections? Spain?

[Thaidup]

23 hours ago, Grumpish said:

And another flat earth anti-vaxx conspiracy theorist crawls out of the woodwork.Why don't you just come out as a stalking horse for the lizard people straight away, or are you too scared of what the Illuminati might do to you?

I made a couple of threads over on the general chat for both of your topics, one about UFO'S and other unexplained stuff and the other is about, are the vaccines still worth it? just for your information, if I was as old as I think you are I would get a booster (every 6 months)

[Khunmark]

4 hours ago, Thaidup said:

I do find it Ironic how now some of you are explaining to me that the Thai style of forming a government is basically the same as Australian or UK

I don’t think anyone is saying that at all. The logical extension of your argument however is that dictatorships are justified on the basis that in democracies a simple majority is rarely achieved by candidate parties. You make no concession to preferences.

[Thaidup]

On 8/29/2023 at 10:56 AM, Khunmark said:

I don’t think anyone is saying that at all. The logical extension of your argument however is that dictatorships are justified on the basis that in democracies a simple majority is rarely achieved by candidate parties. You make no concession to preferences.

So we agree. Its all based on "preferences" and as it stands now in Thailand the "preferential candidate" has become the PM. So democracy has won the day.

[cowslip]

54 minutes ago, Thaidup said:

So we agree. Its all based on "preferences" and as it stands now in Thailand the "preferential candidate" has become the PM. So democracy has won the day.

What has this guy been tking that has damaged his brain so much?

[Thaidup]

9 minutes ago, cowslip said:

What has this guy been tking that has damaged his brain so much?

Facts.