Time to dissolve the Catholic Church

[Khunmark]

I can’t fathom how anyone in their right mind could believe that by eliminating the Catholic Church the number of pedophiles would somehow magically be reduced. And yet here we are.

[cowslip]

7 minutes ago, Khunmark said:

I can’t fathom how anyone in their right mind could believe that by eliminating the Catholic Church the number of pedophiles would somehow magically be reduced. And yet here we are.

or more serious;y, why are they obsessing about pedophiles on this site?

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, cowslip said:

or more serious;y, why are they obsessing about pedophiles on this site?

Oh I don’t know perhaps because it’s identified a serious continuous crime and gross abuse of power against defenseless children, which is institutionalized in the Catholic Church, therefore a key item in the case to Abolish the Corrupt CC ? So No one is obsessing about pedos, you idiot, are they? Except You

Are you perhaps imitating your Hollyweird friends who tried to shut down the subject of Human/ Child Trafficking because the subject recent movie was produced and starred the “ wrong type” of people who may have attended QAnon mtgs ? As if that had anything to do with the subject, like your sickening ,absurd and pathetic attempt above at deflecting valid and fundamental CC criticism.

 

[cowslip]

4 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Oh I don’t know perhaps because it’s identified a serious continuous crime and gross abuse of power against defenseless children, which is institutionalized in the Catholic Church, therefore a key item in the case to Abolish the Corrupt CC ? So No one is obsessing about pedos, you idiot, are they? Except You

Are you perhaps imitating your Hollyweird friends who tried to shut down the subject of Human/ Child Trafficking because the subject recent movie was produced and starred the “ wrong type” of people who may have attended QAnon mtgs ? As if that had anything to do with the subject, like your sickening ,absurd and pathetic attempt above at deflecting valid and fundamental CC criticism.

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"....QED

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, cowslip said:

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"....QED

You think Wrong, as usual. Pedophilia rife in CC.
Hard to imagine protesting this “ too much”. 
Humiliating bad actors here is so much fun

[Tippaporn]

On 6/4/2023 at 6:10 AM, Shade_Wilder said:

(Image from Justiceinfo.net, link below)

It is time to dissolve the Catholic Church.

First, it needs to be clear that this post is not an attack on Religious Freedoms or Beliefs, it is an attack on the structure, behavior and rules surrounding the Catholic Church. 

Catholicism has always baffled me; a young girl got pregnant without having sex, her husband bought that tale, the child was the Son of God who worked for thirty years or so then died an excruciating death but got better, all for my benefit. Hmm... And, every Sunday congregants gather to symbolically eat the flesh and drink the blood of the aforementioned dead guy who got better. Double hmm...

The impetus for this post was an article by Reuters (link below) about the Church in Spain and how investigators found horrible abuse;

"MADRID, June 2 (Reuters) - An investigation by the Spanish Catholic Church into child sexual abuse by members of the clergy and non-clerical staff has so far identified 728 alleged abusers and 927 victims since the 1940s, according to its first report."

This is a shocking headline, but it isn't an uncommon one. Another report in Forbes (link below) regarding the situation last year was even worse;

"At Least 330,000 Minors Were Victims Of Sex Abuse In The French Catholic Church Since 1950, Report Finds"

An article on Wikipedia (link below) goes through the news from many, many countries;

"There have been many cases of sexual abuse of children by priests, nuns, and other members of religious life in the Catholic Church. In the 20th and 21st centuries, the cases have involved many allegations, investigations, trials, convictions, acknowledgement and apologies by Church authorities, and revelations about decades of instances of abuse and attempts by Church officials to cover them up.[3] The abused include mostly boys but also girls, some as young as three years old, with the majority between the ages of 11 and 14.[4][5][6][7] Criminal cases for the most part do not cover sexual harassment of adults. The accusations of abuse and cover-ups began to receive public attention during the late 1980s.[8] Many of these cases allege decades of abuse, frequently made by adults or older youths years after the abuse occurred. Cases have also been brought against members of the Catholic hierarchy who covered up sex abuse allegations and moved abusive priests to other parishes, where abuse continued.[9][10]"

An article by Justiceinfo.net (link below) looks at investigations world-wide;

"With tens of thousands of victims worldwide over several decades, sexual abuse by members of the Catholic Church is an unprecedented issue of justice. In order to reveal and confront the magnitude of the crimes, many transitional justice mechanisms are at work, including expert reports, commissions of inquiry, truth commissions and trials. Justice Info here publishes a world map of this fragmented, highly sensitive, often innovative justice in the face of an extraordinary institutional crime."

Do all of these articles demonstrate that the world is getting clear and concise information on the issue? The short answer is no. It seems that data is being produced in countries that have independent, outside investigations into abuse in the Catholic Church, but little data is coming from countries that allow the Church to run its own investigation or that are unduly influenced by the Catholic Church itself (this kind of lack of investigations will be familiar to Thai expats) . The conclusion of the bishopaccountability.org site (link below) analysis notes;

"All of this means that the Catholic stats are hugely undercounted, and I conclude that paedophilia is a problem far more prevalent than in the general population, despite organisational attempts to tell you otherwise.

As Anri states, perhaps this article should be more obviously titled: “Are Catholic Clergy more Likely to Be Paedophiles protected from prosecution for sex crimes and moved to another location of opportunity by a huge wealthy international organization claiming to be the one true moral compass for the world than the General Public?”

To which the answer is a resounding:

Yes.

Yes they are.

And there is no spin able to cover that up."

It would not be difficult to cite another hundred articles on sexual abuse in the Catholic Church; a simple Google search would keep you busy all day.

The question that needs to be asked is this; given that virtually everywhere the Catholic Church has been investigated for sexual crimes many, many have been found, why is the Catholic Church as an organization still permitted to function, unscathed?

If the United Nation Development Program (UNDP) had the same record of sexual abuse by its employees, it would have been dissolved many years ago.

If FIFA had the same record of sexual abuse by its employees, it would have been dissolved many years ago.

If Carrefour, the French retailer and wholesaler, had the same record of sexual abuse by its employees, it would have been dissolved many years ago.

If the International Snooker Federation had the same record of sexual abuse by its employees, it would have been dissolved many years ago.

If Greenpeace had the same record of sexual abuse by its employees, it would have been dissolved many years ago.

If CNN International had the same record of sexual abuse by its employees, it would have been dissolved many years ago.

If the Commonwealth had the same record of sexual abuse by its employees, it would have been dissolved many years ago.

So, why not the Catholic Church? Why isn't it declared a criminal organization, its assets sold off to compensate its victims, and dissolved? The Catholic Church (and everyone on the planet) has been aware of the rampant sexual abuse/pedophilia committed by its employees for decades, if not longer. It has been allowed to 'clean itself up', but its efforts were/are minimal, grossly inadequate and ineffective.

The time has come to treat the Catholic Church as a global protector/haven for pedophiles and dissolve it, ASAP. If the membership then wishes to re-build a Church without the pedophilia, then that'd be fine by me, once all claims have been settled and all pedophiles expunged and jailed.

If not now, when? And, if not now, how many more children will be abused while we wait?

Some reading...

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/spains-catholic-church-finds-hundreds-alleged-child-abusers-over-eight-decades-2023-06-02/

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/spains-catholic-church-finds-hundreds-alleged-child-abusers-over-eight-decades-2023-06-02/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases#:~:text=The report estimates that 216%2C000,of the victims were boys.

https://www.justiceinfo.net/en/45133-sexual-abuse-church-map-justice-worldwide.html

https://www.bishop-accountability.org/2021/03/are-catholic-clergy-more-likely-to-be-paedophiles-than-the-general-public-redux/

Well, what could one expect when an institution requires one to suppress his inherent, natural, and, yes, God-given sexuality absolutely?  No problems?

[Tippaporn]

On 6/4/2023 at 6:36 AM, Smithydog said:

Simply as an organisation, there is much that I would agree with you about what you have raised.

However, belief, especially religious belief is a powerful driver for so many people and provides comfort in their daily lives. We hear about the bad but often overlook the good it can provide.

I am not a fan personally of organised religion. I was raised an Anglican, even taught Sunday School and sang in the church choir. My wife is a Buddhist and I have learnt enough to show respect, but not a convert for sure.

A simple dissolve is not the answer, but I do believe the Church must reform. No longer handling any criminality inside closed doors, they must become the reporting agency for such matters and seek to clear out the bad ones. Using their religious beliefs and “uniforms” can not be accepted as any protective form.

Freeing priests to marry, modernising the celibacy standards they have had, would be a good first step helping Priests to normalise their lives. 

Well said, Smithydog.  Although I would say that religion provides more than mere comfort.  The purpose of religion, in my view, is to provide us explanations as to who and what we are, the world in which we exist, and provide a connection to our being as expressed in flesh and blood to that part of us which is eternal.

[cowslip]

21 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Well, what could one expect when an institution requires one to suppress his inherent, natural, and, yes, God-given sexuality absolutely?  No problems?

by that criteria, we should close down Thaiger!

[SnapDragon]

27 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Well said, Smithydog.  Although I would say that religion provides more than mere comfort.  The purpose of religion, in my view, is to provide us explanations as to who and what we are, the world in which we exist, and provide a connection to our being as expressed in flesh and blood to that part of us which is eternal.

Difference between religion and having faith.

[oldschooler]

50 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Well said, Smithydog.  Although I would say that religion provides more than mere comfort.  The purpose of religion, in my view, is to provide us explanations as to who and what we are, the world in which we exist, and provide a connection to our being as expressed in flesh and blood to that part of us which is eternal.

 

50 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Well said, Smithydog.  Although I would say that religion provides more than mere comfort.  The purpose of religion, in my view, is to provide us explanations as to who and what we are, the world in which we exist, and provide a connection to our being as expressed in flesh and blood to that part of us which is eternal.

That WAS the role of Religion, before Science took that role 300 years ago, at least in civilized rational areas. 

[oldschooler]

On 10/30/2023 at 6:57 AM, ChicagoExpat said:

This is a gigantic steaming pile of misinformation -- the comparison with Nazis was disgusting and a mockery of the Holocaust.  Atheists killed more people in the 20th century than the Catholic Church could have dreamed of doing at its worst over centuries.  Hitchens?  Not impressed, though his disciples adore him.

You Lie Priest…. Again. 

[oldschooler]

On 11/28/2023 at 10:25 AM, Khunmark said:

I can’t fathom how anyone in their right mind could believe that by eliminating the Catholic Church the number of pedophiles would somehow magically be reduced. And yet here we are.

There is no issue or objective of “ reducing pedophiles” you clown.

What twisted mind could even look at the problem in that way ?  A mentally ill person perhaps.

Subject  is to abolish a massive influential corrupt world institution that is systematically rife with Evil.

Yet instead you chose to join the long list of irrational CC apologists with this absurd deflection comment

[Tippaporn]

On 6/4/2023 at 10:24 AM, Faraday said:

I was brought up as a Catholic, & luckily not abused physically, although at times the Nuns & Father's, took delight in chastising me & my sister.

She was told at 14, that if she "kissed a boy, she would get pregnant!".

However, she discovered quite quickly, that this wasn't true.

No need to document all the badness, I & many others experienced. But some of the teachings & pontifical statements, had quite a profound negative effect on me.

I agree with Smithydog, that the issues are with organised Religion & the power they hold. 

The Vatican's wealth, is estimated to be $15 billion- can't see that's right:At all.

There are many good Nuns & Monks though & do a lot of good & do help many people.

I don't think it should be disbanded however, but a lot more openess & control needs to be exercised.

https://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0,33009,833509,00.html

I agree with Smithydog's solution.  Granted, it may only be partial.

On 6/4/2023 at 6:36 AM, Smithydog said:

Freeing priests to marry, modernising the celibacy standards they have had, would be a good first step helping Priests to normalise their lives. 

I have no idea where the Church got the idea to deny human sexuality and link it symbolically to giving yourself completely to the Lord.  Bad idea.,

On 6/4/2023 at 7:47 AM, Shade_Wilder said:

However, I would argue that the Catholic Church has already been given a great deal of time and leeway to deal with the issue of pedophilia/child molestation within its ranks but has not done so satisfactorily.

Whenever any institution is able to investigate their own crimes you know the fix is in.  It's akin to expecting a corrupt government to fix itself.  Not going to happen.

[Tippaporn]

57 minutes ago, Sticky said:

Difference between religion and having faith.

Or the difference between religion and spirituality.  The two are not the same thing.

[Tippaporn]

37 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

That WAS the role of Religion, before Science took that role 300 years ago, at least in civilized rational areas. 

Science has become its own religion, replete with its own dogma.  And a false one to boot, I would add.

[cowslip]

On 11/28/2023 at 6:33 PM, oldschooler said:

You think Wrong, as usual. Pedophilia rife in CC.
Hard to imagine protesting this “ too much”. 
Humiliating bad actors here is so much fun

unsurprisingly, you don't understand the quote.

[Khunmark]

7 hours ago, oldschooler said:

There is no issue or objective of “ reducing pedophiles” you clown.

What twisted mind could even look at the problem in that way ?  A mentally ill person perhaps.

Subject  is to abolish a massive influential corrupt world institution that is systematically rife with Evil.

Yet instead you chose to join the long list of irrational CC apologists with this absurd deflection comment

Just a couple of quick points; being called a clown by a clown is reassuring, however I feel that point is probably lost on you. Secondly, posting so regularly is unnecessary for you, your title of the biggest buffoon on Thethaiger is assured.

Your flimsy reasoning is based on a dangerous combination of base emotion and military analysis, to what is essentially a social issue. In sophisticated societies, politicians of your ilk are purposely corralled and sidelined. And with good reason. This is because sane, rational individuals understand the implications of applying a broad brush approach to what is a complex issue. They also understand that far from achieving the goal of making children safer, an embargo on the church would actually make it less safe children. And therefore be counterproductive.

Good policy requires imagination and nuance, two words foreign to you. In your world all farangs would be summarily rounded up and deported from Thailand because a couple of Brits mucked up in Pattaya. In your world prohibition was a good policy. In your world the egregious actions of a few from the same race, religion, class or political leaning represent the wider beliefs, behaviours and human characteristics of the whole of that particular race, religion class or political leaning

I’m yet to be convinced that YOU actually believe anything you post. And if you do indeed buy into the garbage that you post, you are unfit to weigh into any social issue on this forum. 

[cowslip]

I'll spell it out....

The phrase "the lady doth protest too much, methinks" is a famous line from William Shakespeare's play Hamlet. It is spoken by Queen Gertrude, Hamlet's mother, in response to the overacting of a character in a play within the play. The line is often used to suggest that someone is being overly defensive or insincere in their protestations of innocence or virtue. The person is not being genuine and that her protestations are actually a sign of guilt.

It now has come to be used more generally to describe any situation in which someone's protestations seem to be over the top or lacking in credibility. For example, if someone is accused of a crime and they vehemently deny any wrongdoing, people might say that they are "protesting too much" and that their protestations are actually a sign of guilt.

So - it is  a reminder that excessive protestations can sometimes backfire and make people appear more guilty than they actually are

 

[oldschooler]

6 minutes ago, Khunmark said:

Just a couple of quick points; being called a clown by a clown is reassuring, however I feel that point is probably lost on you. Secondly, posting so regularly is unnecessary for you, your title of the biggest buffoon on Thethaiger is assured.

Your flimsy reasoning is based on a dangerous combination of base emotion and military analysis, to what is essentially a social issue. In sophisticated societies, politicians of your ilk are purposely corralled and sidelined. And with good reason. This is because sane, rational individuals understand the implications of applying a broad brush approach to what is a complex issue. They also understand that far from achieving the goal of making children safer, an embargo on the church would actually make it less safe children. And therefore be counterproductive.

Good policy requires imagination and nuance, two words foreign to you. In your world all farangs would be summarily rounded up and deported from Thailand because a couple of Brits mucked up in Pattaya. In your world prohibition was a good policy. In your world the egregious actions of a few from the same race, religion, class or political leaning represent the wider beliefs, behaviours and human characteristics of the whole of that particular race, religion class or political leaning

I’m yet to be convinced that YOU actually believe anything you post. And if you do indeed buy into the garbage that you post, you are unfit to weigh into any social issue on this forum. 

You Keep digging your CC Apologist / Deflection Hole ever Deeper with your pseudo- intellectual ramblings and irrational criticisms. 

You argue without reasoning that CC, the systemic abuser, somehow restrains wider child abuse, when clearly it can only serve to encourage it, “as if Priests are at it, it must be all right for all”.

Estimated 25% CC Priests ….. “Spotlight” film. We are not talking about “ a few” here, it’s widespread, systematic & institutionalised.

Thats why it’s an issue. In this case “ the whole” does need to go, like Nazism.

CC Pedophilia is not a “social issue”  nor is it “ complex” anymore than the need to take down Nazism was.

CC conducting a Systematic Serious Crime Against Humanity. Massive Abuse of Power Too.
Mechanism & Complexity of taking down CC is not the subject nor my concern. 

CC and yes, Islam, should be abolished as a Serious Crime Syndicate and like all Religion, a plague on Humanity. My reasoning is demonstrably rational and factual not emotional, misguided and deflective like yours.  

“ Convinced” ? Everybody’s  free to believe whatever they want, although rather less free to speak out openly of course.

 

[oldschooler]

58 minutes ago, cowslip said:

I'll spell it out....

The phrase "the lady doth protest too much, methinks" is a famous line from William Shakespeare's play Hamlet. It is spoken by Queen Gertrude, Hamlet's mother, in response to the overacting of a character in a play within the play. The line is often used to suggest that someone is being overly defensive or insincere in their protestations of innocence or virtue. The person is not being genuine and that her protestations are actually a sign of guilt.

It now has come to be used more generally to describe any situation in which someone's protestations seem to be over the top or lacking in credibility. For example, if someone is accused of a crime and they vehemently deny any wrongdoing, people might say that they are "protesting too much" and that their protestations are actually a sign of guilt.

So - it is  a reminder that excessive protestations can sometimes backfire and make people appear more guilty than they actually are

Very good…. even Interesting actually….

Now can we get back to being serious now…..

CC Systematic Child Abuse is no suitable subject for humour

[Tippaporn]

12 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

Science has become its own religion, replete with its own dogma.  And a false one to boot, I would add.

Why the confused look, oldschooler?  Isn't it obvious to you yet?  Science has it's own tendencies which bear stark similarities to cultish behaviour.

[Khunmark]

6 hours ago, oldschooler said:

You Keep digging your CC Apologist / Deflection Hole ever Deeper with your pseudo- intellectual ramblings and irrational criticisms. 

You argue without reasoning that CC, the systemic abuser, somehow restrains wider child abuse, when clearly it can only serve to encourage it, “as if Priests are at it, it must be all right for all”.

Estimated 25% CC Priests ….. “Spotlight” film. We are not talking about “ a few” here, it’s widespread, systematic & institutionalised.

Thats why it’s an issue. In this case “ the whole” does need to go, like Nazism.

CC Pedophilia is not a “social issue”  nor is it “ complex” anymore than the need to take down Nazism was.

CC conducting a Systematic Serious Crime Against Humanity. Massive Abuse of Power Too.
Mechanism & Complexity of taking down CC is not the subject nor my concern. 

CC and yes, Islam, should be abolished as a Serious Crime Syndicate and like all Religion, a plague on Humanity. My reasoning is demonstrably rational and factual not emotional, misguided and deflective like yours.  

“ Convinced” ? Everybody’s  free to believe whatever they want, although rather less free to speak out openly of course.

That you’ve cited a movie for your 25% claim, demonstrates how for down the rabbit hole you’ve found yourself. The science that you champion has eluded you once more. If you’re going to cite figure, at least come up with a credible source.

[Manu]

1 hour ago, Khunmark said:

That you’ve cited a movie for your 25% claim, demonstrates how for down the rabbit hole you’ve found yourself. The science that you champion has eluded you once more. If you’re going to cite figure, at least come up with a credible source.

Before he could cite anything credible, maybe someone has to tell him that movies, youtube videos and wikipedia are not.

[cowslip]

10 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Very good…. even Interesting actually….

Now can we get back to being serious now…..

CC Systematic Child Abuse is no suitable subject for humour

You think you're serious???

[oldschooler]

5 hours ago, Manu said:

Before he could cite anything credible, maybe someone has to tell him that movies, youtube videos and wikipedia are not.

Usual tactic of knee jerk triggered attack on the messenger .whilst ignoring the facts…

these media you cheaply vilify can often be excellent in fact

Go away now…. back your preferred oh so reliable Twitter & Tik Tok sewers.