News Forum - “Merchant of Death” Viktor Bout arrives in Russia as part of US-Russia prisoner swap

[Thaiger]

The “Merchant of Death,” or Viktor Bout, has arrived in Russia after being swapped with prisoner Brittney Griner from the US. The notorious arms dealer was exchanged in Abu Dhabi with American basketball star Brittney Griner. Despite his reputation, Bout received a hero’s welcome upon arriving in Moscow. He spoke to his family when his plane made a refuelling stop in Russia, allaying his mother’s fears. “Don’t worry, everything is OK, I love you very much.” According to The Straits Times, a state television broadcast footage of the prisoner boarding a plane with a smile on his thin face. A […]

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[HolyCowCm]

Interesting. Special treatment to get her freedom where no common citizen would get this attention.

[TheDirtyDurian]

Good to see Viktor back home. He was stitched up before when he was in Bangkok. 

A very likeable guy... 

[Soidog]

This is a bad move by the US. Bout was arrested, given a fair trial and found guilty by a jury based on evidence in the US. Griner was arrested on trumped up drugs charges. No fair trial and imprisoned. Now many people will disagree with the above summary. After what the US did yesterday, then I wouldn’t blame them.
 

In a heartbeat, the US signalled to the world that the process Bout went through and the process Griner went through are indeed equal; one and the same. They agreed a prisoner swap, one-for-one and thereby equal! I know they wanted two-for-one but they caved in. Anytime a country now needs a bargaining chip with the current US government, then just arrest a US citizen and trade. A weak political move by Biden that puts all US citizens who travel overseas at a greater risk. 

[longwood50]

[Fanta]

1 hour ago, Soidog said:

Griner was arrested on trumped up drugs charges. 

By her own admission Griner brought drugs into Russia - smuggling & possession. Her sentence was harsh because of politics.

1 hour ago, Soidog said:

A weak political move by Biden that puts all US citizens who travel overseas at a greater risk.

It was a good deal. The alternative to the prisoner swap was that she would have served 9 years instead only 9 months. 

[palooka]

9 minutes ago, Fanta said:

By her own admission Griner brought drugs into Russia - smuggling & possession. 

So where does she now stand in the world of sport, drug conviction etc?

Think anyone else would be thrown out.

A betting person would back she keeps playing and the media has a field day.

[Soidog]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

By her own admission Griner brought drugs into Russia - smuggling & possession. Her sentence was harsh because of politics.

4 hours ago, Soidog said:

It was a small amount of cannabis oil found in vape cartridges. Her rights were not explained and interpreters didn’t explain the full charges.

 

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

It was a good deal. The alternative to the prisoner swap was that she would have served 9 years instead only 9 months. 

Really. A good deal? What does this say about the American justice system that it equates the crimes of Victor Bout to what Griner was alleged to have done? How is this s good deal if it now puts a target on every other American travelling the world?
 

This is a bad deal and a weak deal by the Biden administration. 

[Fanta]

5 hours ago, Soidog said:

It was a small amount of cannabis oil found in vape cartridges. Her rights were not explained and interpreters didn’t explain the full charges.

She was guilty and admitted it with her ”Aw shucks, did I pack those?” defense and guilty plea. This was the Russian justice system so you can stop with the “technicalities” angle that is so favored and regularly abused by US lawyers.

5 hours ago, Soidog said:

Really. A good deal? What does this say about the American justice system that it equates the crimes of Victor Bout to what Griner was alleged to have done? How is this s good deal if it now puts a target on every other American travelling the world?

This has nothing to do with the US justice system and the sentence & resolution was always about politics and leverage. Griner, the black lesbian sports star so representative of Team W.O.K.E , didn’t even do a year out of her 9 sentence. Bout did 14 years out of his 25 year sentence while Col. Oliver North did 0 days in prison. Good deal! 

[Soidog]

22 minutes ago, Fanta said:

She was guilty and admitted it with her ”Aw shucks, did I pack those?” defense and guilty plea. This was the Russian justice system so you can stop with the “technicalities” angle that is so favored and regularly abused by US lawyers.

This has nothing to do with the US justice system and the sentence & resolution was always about politics and leverage. Griner, the black lesbian sports star so representative of Team W.O.K.E , didn’t even do a year out of her 9 sentence. Bout did 14 years out of his 25 year sentence while Col. Oliver North did 0 days in prison. Good deal! 

The fact remains that by doing a single one-for-one swap, the US have equated the two crimes and systems of justice to be the same. They have also left all US citizens overseas in more danger than they were two days ago. A dreadful political move. 

[Fanta]

7 minutes ago, Soidog said:

The fact remains that by doing a single one-for-one swap, the US have equated the two crimes and systems of justice to be the same. They have also left all US citizens overseas in more danger than they were two days ago. A dreadful political move. 

So you think the Biden administration should never have done the deal and left Griner in prison?

[Marc26]

5 minutes ago, Fanta said:

So you think the Biden administration should never have done the deal and left Griner in prison?

They could have held out for a couple more months and I've been a Grinder supporter

The views about her have been disgusting

 

But in this scenario, these prisoners are commodities

 

I do think it's ridiculous people are equating Whealan and Grinder...........two very different charges

 

But if you are looking at on paper, those 2 for this guy is an even trade

[Soidog]

24 minutes ago, Fanta said:

So you think the Biden administration should never have done the deal and left Griner in prison?

Correct. You can’t free a person at “any cost”. He’s the President and it’s his job to take tough decisions for the greater good of ALL Americans. I understand the personal anguish of her family and if it was my daughter I’d be pleading Biden to do the deal. But that’s not Presidential leadership I’m afraid. Had it been a two for one swap then it could just about be justified. This isn’t like the Cold War days where two people caught of spying and of equal guilt were captured by each side and did an equal trade.

[Fanta]

19 minutes ago, Marc26 said:

But in this scenario, these prisoners are commodities

Bingo! One of my citizens for one of your citizens. The Russians were well aware of how politically and publicly important Griner’s case was to the Biden administration so Whelan never had a chance while Bout was the only comparable candidate for a prisoner swap. 

[Fanta]

46 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Correct. You can’t free a person at “any cost”. He’s the President and it’s his job to take tough decisions for the greater good of ALL Americans. I understand the personal anguish of her family and if it was my daughter I’d be pleading Biden to do the deal. But that’s not Presidential leadership I’m afraid. Had it been a two for one swap then it could just about be justified. This isn’t like the Cold War days where two people caught of spying and of equal guilt were captured by each side and did an equal trade.

And what was the cost? Bout was news about 10 years ago. Griner gets to return to the US, continue her career, will be held up as an example of the US helping their own with the Russians continuing to be the bad guys as opposed to her spending the next 8 years in a Russian prison, returning as a 40 year old has-been and in the meantime being a nearly constant reminder of America’s inability to influence Russia every time a “Save Brittney” placard is held up at a basketball game. This was all politics. 

[Soidog]

28 minutes ago, Fanta said:

And what was the cost? Bout was news about 10 years ago. Griner gets to return to the US, continue her career, will be held up as an example of the US helping their own with the Russians continuing to be the bad guys as opposed to her spending the next 8 years in a Russian prison, returning as a 40 year old has-been and in the meantime being a nearly constant reminder of America’s inability to influence Russia every time a “Save Brittney” placard is held up at a basketball game. This was all politics. 

Of course it’s politics, and Biden has failed to understand that. American justice just been bought off by a bunch of Kremlin criminals. You are looking at the small picture I’m afraid. You don’t trade with people like the Russian government unless it’s an equal trade. This wasn’t equal and Putin wins again. Biden looks a mug apart from those people who think this was all about Grinder. As you say, it was about politics and Biden lost 

[Fanta]

21 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Of course it’s politics, and Biden has failed to understand that. American justice just been bought off by a bunch of Kremlin criminals. You are looking at the small picture I’m afraid. You don’t trade with people like the Russian government unless it’s an equal trade. This wasn’t equal and Putin wins again. Biden looks a mug apart from those people who think this was all about Grinder. As you say, it was about politics and Biden lost 

This was all about Griner, the black lesbian sports figure. During Trump’s time, Russia previously offered Whelan for Bout - didn’t happen. Watch the back slapping taking place in America over the next few days for swapping a “wrongly detained” minority figure for a forgotten Russian while Whelan is left behind to eat his umpteenth bowl of borsch.  
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/paul-whelan-viktor-bout-trump-prisoner-swap-b2242240.html?amp

[Soidog]

39 minutes ago, Fanta said:

This was all about Griner, the black lesbian sports figure. During Trump’s time, Russia previously offered Whelan for Bout - didn’t happen. Watch the back slapping taking place in America over the next few days for swapping a “wrongly detained” minority figure for a forgotten Russian while Whelan is left behind to eat his umpteenth bowl of borsch.  
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/paul-whelan-viktor-bout-trump-prisoner-swap-b2242240.html?amp

I feel sorry for Whelan and his family. There can be nothing more frustrating than having a loved one stuck in the middle of a political bun fight. I hope he returns home to his loved ones soon. 

[Wackamole]

7 hours ago, Fanta said:

This was all about Griner, the black lesbian sports figure. During Trump’s time, Russia previously offered Whelan for Bout - didn’t happen. Watch the back slapping taking place in America over the next few days for swapping a “wrongly detained” minority figure for a forgotten Russian while Whelan is left behind to eat his umpteenth bowl of borsch.  
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/paul-whelan-viktor-bout-trump-prisoner-swap-b2242240.html?amp

What an awful post. She's a 2 time gold medalist. Can you tell me any similar case involving a top white NBA and USA team player wouldn't have received at least as much urgency?

19 hours ago, palooka said:

So where does she now stand in the world of sport, drug conviction etc?

Think anyone else would be thrown out.

A betting person would back she keeps playing and the media has a field day.

Horse sh1t. Careers over over some ridiculously tiny amount of cannabis really? What are you on about?

White males jealous of the black lesbian condition. Is it hilarious or just too appalling?

Nah it's hilarious.

[longwood50]

19 hours ago, Fanta said:

It was a good deal. The alternative to the prisoner swap was that she would have served 9 years instead only 9 months. 

It was a lousy deal.  You had a person who broke the law in Russia and was only selected because of her notoriety.  By contrast Bouts was known as the Merchant of Death and he smuggled weapons around the world leading to countless deaths. 

By contrast Paul Whelan was a U.S. Marine and supposedly a code of the U.S. military is to leave no one behind and Biden is commander in chief.  Biden called those espionage allegations “totally illegitimate charges.” Whelan has already served 4 years of a 16 year sentence. But Biden for purely political reasons chose to prioritize the release of a celebrity and gay "woman" 

The only worse trade was Obama when he released 5 senior Taliban military leaders in exchange for 1 known US desserter.  

[Marc26]

1 hour ago, longwood50 said:

It was a lousy deal.  You had a person who broke the law in Russia and was only selected because of her notoriety.  By contrast Bouts was known as the Merchant of Death and he smuggled weapons around the world leading to countless deaths. 

By contrast Paul Whelan was a U.S. Marine and supposedly a code of the U.S. military is to leave no one behind and Biden is commander in chief.  Biden called those espionage allegations “totally illegitimate charges.” Whelan has already served 4 years of a 16 year sentence. But Biden for purely political reasons chose to prioritize the release of a celebrity and gay "woman" 

The only worse trade was Obama when he released 5 senior Taliban military leaders in exchange for 1 known US desserter.  

You must have forgot about the 5000 Taliban a certain someone released for nothing......

[Manu]

10 hours ago, Soidog said:

Of course it’s politics, and Biden has failed to understand that. American justice just been bought off by a bunch of Kremlin criminals. You are looking at the small picture I’m afraid. You don’t trade with people like the Russian government unless it’s an equal trade. This wasn’t equal and Putin wins again. Biden looks a mug apart from those people who think this was all about Grinder. As you say, it was about politics and Biden lost 

Interesting debate between Fanta and you, but... yes Soidog, I disagree again with you. It is a clever political move from Biden and more widely for the democrats. Griner represents alone a huge amount of different communities that voted for Biden and the democrats (communitarism is the essence of US society, which unfortunately has been imported in Europe, each community represents themselves, fight for themselves and do not care really about others as long as they get what they want), all these voters will see her return as a great action and victory, especially the young generation of w-o-k-e-ist. It is very sad in a way, I personally do not like it and hate to see the same w-o-k-e-ism starting to be a way of thinking in my own country, but that's the reality of the US society. On the other hand, Bout, and him doing the rest of his sentence, has 0 political value for the democrats, the young generation of voters has probably never heard of him and/or do not give a toss. I am sorry but I see this as a cleaver move from Biden. It is not about how other countries see you but really to stay in power in your own country. I do not like the US republicans but I do not like the democrats too, generally I do not like US politics, and if this was not replicating itself in my country and more generally everywhere in the western world, I would have indeed 0 interest in it. More widely, I do not think anyone gives a toss about this exchange of prisoners between the US and Russia, there are enough more important problems to be worried about everywhere.

[Vigo]

Bout had already served 1/2 his sentence.   Even though it was a 25 year sentence (2035 release) he was technically up for release in 2029, and was likely to be released in 2023/2024.

Russia was only interested in  negotiating over Griner. Bout wasn't going to be kept much longer so the USA  got something in return for a fish that was going bad.

On 12/9/2022 at 2:19 PM, HolyCowCm said:

Interesting. Special treatment to get her freedom where no common citizen would get this attention.

No special treatment. USA regularly assists wealthy Americans arrested in foreign countries.  There are not too many US nationals working in Russia now are there? Many people don't like her because she is a big, ugly, masculine looking, tattooed person. I don't like her because I don't think she should have been playing in Russia, However, the reality is that the US did the best it could for her.

In respect to Whelan, he is also Canadian. Ask Canada why it is so useless with his case.

[Manu]

28 minutes ago, Vigo said:

No special treatment. USA regularly assists wealthy Americans arrested in foreign countries.

"...Wealthy..."? So yes special treatment then

[Soidog]

53 minutes ago, Manu said:

Interesting debate between Fanta and you, but... yes Soidog, I disagree again with you. It is a clever political move from Biden and more widely for the democrats. Griner represents alone a huge amount of different communities that voted for Biden and the democrats (communitarism is the essence of US society, which unfortunately has been imported in Europe, each community represents themselves, fight for themselves and do not care really about others as long as they get what they want), all these voters will see her return as a great action and victory, especially the young generation of w-o-k-e-ist. It is very sad in a way, I personally do not like it and hate to see the same w-o-k-e-ism starting to be a way of thinking in my own country, but that's the reality of the US society. On the other hand, Bout, and him doing the rest of his sentence, has 0 political value for the democrats, the young generation of voters has probably never heard of him and/or do not give a toss. I am sorry but I see this as a cleaver move from Biden. It is not about how other countries see you but really to stay in power in your own country. I do not like the US republicans but I do not like the democrats too, generally I do not like US politics, and if this was not replicating itself in my country and more generally everywhere in the western world, I would have indeed 0 interest in it. More widely, I do not think anyone gives a toss about this exchange of prisoners between the US and Russia, there are enough more important problems to be worried about everywhere.

I think that’s what I meant by seeing the small picture. From a US voter point of view and especially the younger generation, then yes, it is perhaps a vote winner? On the international stage and where it places Biden trying to lead the free world, I’m afraid it’s an own goal. With Bout at one point being the second most wanted man only after Bin Laden, then you have to ask, what will it now take to get Whelan out? 
 

As I have said before. It’s a great deal for the Griner family. It’s a very very bad deal  for America and their role as defenders of the free world and all the Americans in dodgy locations around the world.