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News Forum - “Merchant of Death” Viktor Bout arrives in Russia as part of US-Russia prisoner swap


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42 minutes ago, Soidog said:

I think that’s what I meant by seeing the small picture. From a US voter point of view and especially the younger generation, then yes, it is perhaps a vote winner? On the international stage and where it places Biden trying to lead the free world, I’m afraid it’s an own goal. With Bout at one point being the second most wanted man only after Bin Laden, then you have to ask, what will it now take to get Whelan out? 
 

As I have said before. It’s a great deal for the Griner family. It’s a very very bad deal  for America and their role as defenders of the free world and all the Americans in dodgy locations around the world. 

Soidog I dont think Biden was given a chance to get Whelan out. The Russians were offering Griner or nothing. Biden took what he could get. One American home is better than none.

The thing is Russia uses these people as pawns. They trump up charges against people (although Griner did break a law in a minor way) and hold those people hostage.

Any President would have made the same deal. Lets not turn this into a bipartisan issue.

Lay the blame where it belongs. Russia behaving as a rogue state again.

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14 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Any President would have made the same deal. Lets not turn this into a bipartisan issue.

Well, according to John Bolton, Trump turned down a deal for Whelan and Bout? 
 

I really don’t have a view on Democrats or Republicans. I think it’s sad that Biden and Trump were seen as the two best candidates offered to the American people. If this had been a Republican President I’d hold the same view. This is also the second time Biden has done a swap  the last one was much more politically equivalent  Reed for Yaroshenko  Trump also did a prisoner swap with Iran in 2019. Back in 2010 the CIA swapped 10 Russian spy’s known as operation Ghost stories. I’m not against prisoner swaps whatsoever. 

My view is based purely on the principle that you only swap where the swap is equal and you don’t make a political statement that demonstrates equality of two unequal issues. Bout and what he did and how he was found guilty, in no way equates to what Griner did or the process she went through in Russia. By doing so, it tells the rest of the world that America believes Griner was given a fair trial just as Bout was. Griners crimes were just as heinous as Bouts was. Neither is true and politics is often about signalling values. This can have some very detrimental impact to individuals but values need defending. 
 

Again, I will be clear. I do understand and appreciate the compassionate angle on this.  This is a fantastic deal for Griner and her loved ones. At a personal level I’m happy for the Griner family and I would in no way wish to take any of that away from them. If it had been my daughter I’d have been begging my country to do exactly the same deal. 

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33 minutes ago, Soidog said:

Well, according to John Bolton, Trump turned down a deal for Whelan and Bout? 
 

I really don’t have a view on Democrats or Republicans. I think it’s sad that Biden and Trump were seen as the two best candidates offered to the American people. If this had been a Republican President I’d hold the same view. This is also the second time Biden has done a swap  the last one was much more politically equivalent  Reed for Yaroshenko  Trump also did a prisoner swap with Iran in 2019. Back in 2010 the CIA swapped 10 Russian spy’s known as operation Ghost stories. I’m not against prisoner swaps whatsoever. 

My view is based purely on the principle that you only swap where the swap is equal and you don’t make a political statement that demonstrates equality of two unequal issues. Bout and what he did and how he was found guilty, in no way equates to what Griner did or the process she went through in Russia. By doing so, it tells the rest of the world that America believes Griner was given a fair trial just as Bout was. Griners crimes were just as heinous as Bouts was. Neither is true and politics is often about signalling values. This can have some very detrimental impact to individuals but values need defending. 
 

Again, I will be clear. I do understand and appreciate the compassionate angle on this.  This is a fantastic deal for Griner and her loved ones. At a personal level I’m happy for the Griner family and I would in no way wish to take any of that away from them. If it had been my daughter I’d have been begging my country to do exactly the same deal. 

There is no equality in the crimes committed. There never will be when a rogue state simply takes hostages. Is it fair? Hell no. Is it the reality of the situation? Yes it is.

This is the issue when you have to deal with despotic rulers. They do not hold the same values as western democracies. 

The truth is I would love to see western countries start grabbing Putins oligarch friends and jailing them just for jaywalking but the problem is our courts will not do that. And rightly so. If we do that then we are as bad as them.

We have to be patient. Its the end game as far as Putin is concerned. He will not be in control of Russia by the end of next year.

Then we can reset relations and hopefully get all our people back.

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28 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

There is no equality in the crimes committed. There never will be when a rogue state simply takes hostages. Is it fair? Hell no. Is it the reality of the situation? Yes it is.

This is the issue when you have to deal with despotic rulers. They do not hold the same values as western democracies. 

The truth is I would love to see western countries start grabbing Putins oligarch friends and jailing them just for jaywalking but the problem is our courts will not do that. And rightly so. If we do that then we are as bad as them.

We have to be patient. Its the end game as far as Putin is concerned. He will not be in control of Russia by the end of next year.

Then we can reset relations and hopefully get all our people back.

Good post. Totally agree👍🏻

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21 hours ago, Marc26 said:

You must have forgot about the 5000 Taliban a certain someone released for nothing

First, it was the Afghan government not Trump that released the prisoners.  Perhaps you don't know the Taliban were held in prisons in Afghanistan not the USA and Trump was not president of Afghanistan. 

The Taliban release was part of an agreement that yes the USA agreed to did not authorize that was a condition to start peace talks with the Taliban.  So your comment that "nothing was received" is false. 

You seem to omit certain things also.

This is a partial list of those brought home under Trump

CIA officer, Sabrina de Sousa, who was held in Portugal for more than 18 month

Egyptian-American charity worker Aya Hijazi who was imprisoned in Cairo for three years.

American businesswoman Sandy Phan-Gillis who was released from China,

Caitlin Coleman and her family her were discharged by the Haqqani network in the Pakistan-Afghanistan area

American Joshua Holt was released from years in a Venezuelan prison,

Pastor Andrew Brunson was let go in Turkey

NASA scientist Serkan Golge was released from Turkey

Kimberly Endicott was kidnapped along with her tour guide in Uganda were released

These are just some of the over 50 captives released from 22 different countries.  

Please supply me with a similar list showcasing Biden's accomplishments. 
 

 

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On 12/11/2022 at 2:06 PM, longwood50 said:

First, it was the Afghan government not Trump that released the prisoners.  Perhaps you don't know the Taliban were held in prisons in Afghanistan not the USA and Trump was not president of Afghanistan. 

The Taliban release was part of an agreement that yes the USA agreed to did not authorize that was a condition to start peace talks with the Taliban.  So your comment that "nothing was received" is false. 

You seem to omit certain things also.

This is a partial list of those brought home under Trump

CIA officer, Sabrina de Sousa, who was held in Portugal for more than 18 month

Egyptian-American charity worker Aya Hijazi who was imprisoned in Cairo for three years.

American businesswoman Sandy Phan-Gillis who was released from China,

Caitlin Coleman and her family her were discharged by the Haqqani network in the Pakistan-Afghanistan area

American Joshua Holt was released from years in a Venezuelan prison,

Pastor Andrew Brunson was let go in Turkey

NASA scientist Serkan Golge was released from Turkey

Kimberly Endicott was kidnapped along with her tour guide in Uganda were released

These are just some of the over 50 captives released from 22 different countries.  

Please supply me with a similar list showcasing Biden's accomplishments. 
 

Looks like fewer Americans are being taken hostage following the change in the US President? The world had an exhale of relief when Mr. Biden took office and the confrontational rhetoric that encouraged targeting of US nationals ended. 

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1 hour ago, Vigo said:

Looks like fewer Americans are being taken hostage following the change in the US President? The world had an exhale of relief when Mr. Biden took office and the confrontational rhetoric that encouraged targeting of US nationals ended. 

I’m not sure that’s true, and if it is in terms of numbers over the past two years, then that has nothing to do with Biden and all to do with international travel being massively reduced due to Covid. During the time Trump was in office the average number taken per year fell from 12 to 7. Weak foreign policy which placates domestic voters cuts no ice with governments like Russia or Iran.

 

https://www.npr.org/2022/09/28/1125578884/wrongful-detention-report-foley-foundation

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10 hours ago, Soidog said:

I’m not sure that’s true, and if it is in terms of numbers over the past two years, then that has nothing to do with Biden and all to do with international travel being massively reduced due to Covid. During the time Trump was in office the average number taken per year fell from 12 to 7. Weak foreign policy which placates domestic voters cuts no ice with governments like Russia or Iran.

https://www.npr.org/2022/09/28/1125578884/wrongful-detention-report-foley-foundation

I found that link before I realized that you were generous enough to share 😀   it is quite informative. I noted the part; The majority of incidents involve nations where the U.S. has extensive sanctions in place: Iran, China, Venezuela, North Korea, Syria and Russia. Taken together, they account for nearly two-thirds of all wrongful detention cases.   This begs the question as to why anyone would travel to these cursed countries unless subject to diplomatic protection.  Very disturbing and another reason I give thanks.

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Well as in the news today, Mr. Death has publicly came out and said he supports Putin and the Russian invasian and will do anything he can do to help with it, but he doesn't understand why Putin waited so long to attack. And after he got out the Russian news was making fun of how stupid the US is about doing this trade for Griner and it should have been Paul Whelan if was going to be anybody. They look at Griner as an outcast in a I am in the stupid awake generation who complains about every little thing. For the trade I can't really say they are so wrong.

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4 minutes ago, Fanta said:

The thing is that Griner wasn’t wrongfully detained. She broke Russian law. 

Yes this is correct. Why should she have preferential treatment for breaking the law, even though it is a stupid law and the amount she has riculously tiny and only for personal use. But big amount or small amount is the same as you will not catch me galivanting around the world with any stuff that will get me behind bars.

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3 hours ago, Vigo said:

This begs the question as to why anyone would travel to these cursed countries unless subject to diplomatic protection.

My thoughts exactly. I would think twice to even overfly those countries for fear an emergency meant we need to land.
 

As an aside, I’ve worked with a couple of Israeli companies in the past. Many of the Jewish people I spoke to in those businesses go to some lengths to avoid overflying Arab countries. Not easy given their location.  What a crazy world we live in!  

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On 12/12/2022 at 11:30 PM, Soidog said:

My thoughts exactly. I would think twice to even overfly those countries for fear an emergency meant we need to land.
 

As an aside, I’ve worked with a couple of Israeli companies in the past. Many of the Jewish people I spoke to in those businesses go to some lengths to avoid overflying Arab countries. Not easy given their location.  What a crazy world we live in!  

there was a high profile case a few years back where a plane got diverted to a middle eastern country and they detained a Jewish couple

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On 12/12/2022 at 11:20 PM, Vigo said:

Looks like fewer Americans are being taken hostage following the change in the US President? The world had an exhale of relief when Mr. Biden took office and the confrontational rhetoric that encouraged targeting of US nationals ended. 

1. Do you have any factual evidence that there are fewer americans being taken hostage since Biden took office.

2. How can you make the "leap" that even if true that fewer hostages being taken can be attributed to Biden.

3. Some of those on the list that Trump brought home were prisoners long before he took office 

   

There is a perfect correlation to the movies that Nicholas Cage appeared in and drowings.  So using your logic somehow Nicholas Cage must be responsible for those drownings. 

You obviously are one of those people who like to jump to attributing anything positive about someone you support and conversely ignore any causal factors to negative things like inflation, recession to that same person. 

    image.thumb.png.2937d3f4c76147d652c20265bb8d8baa.png

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On 12/12/2022 at 10:04 PM, HolyCowCm said:

Well as in the news today, Mr. Death has publicly came out and said he supports Putin and the Russian invasian and will do anything he can do to help with it, but he doesn't understand why Putin waited so long to attack. And after he got out the Russian news was making fun of how stupid the US is about doing this trade for Griner and it should have been Paul Whelan if was going to be anybody. They look at Griner as an outcast in a I am in the stupid awake generation who complains about every little thing. For the trade I can't really say they are so wrong.

She complained about police brutality 

 

Not some "small little everything "

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