News Forum - How can Thailand win its war on drugs?

[Thaiger]

As Thailand begins the latest round of its war on drugs, Thai PBS paints a pretty bleak picture of the prospects for a quick victory.  This is no metaphorical war. This is an armed struggle, with well-drilled militaries on every side. According to the news provider, production of methamphetamine by organised crime syndicates has resulted in a sharp drop in production costs, making the drug easily affordable. This is a major headache for Thailand and other countries in Southeast Asia determined to wage war. The United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) report released in May declared that more […]

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[ChrisS]

"How can Thailand win its war on drugs?"

Rooting out the corrupt officials in Law Enforcement who are aiding the suppliers might be a good start!

[palooka]

Cannot.

People in control are too highly placed. 

When the underlings get busted, money is paid and they just move on to the next suckers willing to risk all.

[Cabra]

It can't. 

[MrNovax]

The only way to win this war, like most other wars, is to not fight it.

Best course of action is to provide support (counseling, etc) for those who need it.  Im never a fan of taxation, but i'd prefer that with proceeds going to treatment than throwing people in a cage for victimless "crimes."  

[Soidog]

  On 10/24/2022 at 1:59 PM, MrNovax said:

people in a cage for victimless "crimes." 

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How does that square with what happened in the mass killings at the school? 

[Soidog]

Only one way to fight this war and it’s to fight it ruthlessly. Round up and lock up the ring leaders. Make examples of every single person. Zero tolerance and dig in for a long long fight. No easing of standards and fight it for 20-30 years. It will be worth it. People who abuse drugs are total losers and a drag on the good people in society. I don’t buy this counselling nonsense. Sorry but I prefer the hardline crack down and make everyone in the supply chain and distribution feel real pain. Build more jails if needs be. Zero, and I mean Zero tolerance. Such police’s can’t work in the wishy washy Western countries. Then can here. Do some good with the power and stamp it out. 

[Marc26]

  On 10/24/2022 at 1:59 PM, MrNovax said:

The only way to win this war, like most other wars, is to not fight it.

Best course of action is to provide support (counseling, etc) for those who need it.  Im never a fan of taxation, but i'd prefer that with proceeds going to treatment than throwing people in a cage for victimless "crimes."  

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But they aren't victimless crimes

This is what happens when you allow drugs unfethered

And all those people come into neighborhoods and steal and intimidate moms and kids

Dirty needles all over the place where your kids and dogs play

They take valuable resources away from law abiding citizens

[Marc26]

  On 10/24/2022 at 2:13 PM, Soidog said:

Only one way to fight this war and it’s to fight it ruthlessly. Round up and lock up the ring leaders. Make examples of every single person. Zero tolerance and dig in for a long long fight. No easing of standards and fight it for 20-30 years. It will be worth it. People who abuse drugs are total losers and a drag on the good people in society. I don’t buy this counselling nonsense. Sorry but I prefer the hardline crack down and make everyone in the supply chain and distribution feel real pain. Build more jails if needs be. Zero, and I mean Zero tolerance. Such police’s can’t work in the wishy washy Western countries. Then can here. Do some good with the power and stamp it out. 

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Exactly, see my post

Allowing hard drugs to go on openly and unpunished is a failure..........

[Cabra]

  On 10/24/2022 at 1:59 PM, MrNovax said:

The only way to win this war, like most other wars, is to not fight it.

Best course of action is to provide support (counseling, etc) for those who need it.  Im never a fan of taxation, but i'd prefer that with proceeds going to treatment than throwing people in a cage for victimless "crimes."  

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Agreed. Fighting the supply side has gotten us no where. It's like wackamole. There's always another dealer around the corner. The only true solution is to address demand – which means legalization (taxation) and addiction treatment (see Portugal).

[MrNovax]

  On 10/24/2022 at 2:13 PM, Soidog said:

Only one way to fight this war and it’s to fight it ruthlessly. Round up and lock up the ring leaders. Make examples of every single person. Zero tolerance and dig in for a long long fight. No easing of standards and fight it for 20-30 years. It will be worth it. People who abuse drugs are total losers and a drag on the good people in society. I don’t buy this counselling nonsense. Sorry but I prefer the hardline crack down and make everyone in the supply chain and distribution feel real pain. Build more jails if needs be. Zero, and I mean Zero tolerance. Such police’s can’t work in the wishy washy Western countries. Then can here. Do some good with the power and stamp it out. 

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Yea, they have tried that in Thailand and other countries, it never works.  Putting people in jail also is a "drag on the good people in society."   Tax money is spent at an alarming rate both on law enforcement and jails.    Putting them in jail just means they will never be productive members of society and for what?  

[Soidog]

  On 10/24/2022 at 5:26 PM, MrNovax said:

Yea, they have tried that in Thailand and other countries, it never works.  Putting people in jail also is a "drag on the good people in society."   Tax money is spent at an alarming rate both on law enforcement and jails.    Putting them in jail just means they will never be productive members of society and for what?  

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Actually I don’t think they have tried it. The mistake is not making it hard enough. Lax application of the policy such as “no more than two meth pills” or “first time offenders treated differently”. That’s not what I mean. One Meth pill and life in jail. First time offender? No chance to make it a second time offender. Selling drugs. Death penalty. Wheel em in by the thousands I don’t care. Message would soon get out. Police caught assisting? Death penalty. Believe me it’s not been tried. Too soft and too weak. It needs stopping and the sooner the better.  

[Marc26]

  On 10/24/2022 at 5:26 PM, MrNovax said:

Yea, they have tried that in Thailand and other countries, it never works.  Putting people in jail also is a "drag on the good people in society."   Tax money is spent at an alarming rate both on law enforcement and jails.    Putting them in jail just means they will never be productive members of society and for what?  

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Taxpayer money is being spent regardless

Either by appeasing the druggies. the amount of money wasted on these people is astronomical 

Or by jailing them

By jailing them, you make the city/areas much more safe and liveable for law abiding citizens

My wife can walk down the street without being hassled and scared

Mom's are able to take their kids for a walk and not have druggies shooting and leaving needles everywhere

Appeasing druggies is a failed strategy................

Does this look like a success??

[KaptainRob]

NZ is about as far away from production centres as one can go yet supply of meth is unstoppable despite a very small and remote border with tight controls.

Ardern has thrown millions at the problem yet it's never been worse and her extended covid lockdowns, arguably the harshest of measures anywhere, exacerbated the drug abuse and crime in general. 

I agree 100% with Soidog and go a few steps further.  Death penalty for meth producers and suppliers caught in the act.  Lock up any others in the supply chain for a minimum 10 years even if it means new facilities be built.  Confiscate ALL assets from those caught and put proceeds toward offseting cost of control.

Sanction China for supply of precursors and block importation or transhipping of those chemicals.

NZ youths and young adults are so damaged by meth use it is already beyond control, let alone repair of those families affected.  Meth use is a death sentence for users and needs fighting with fire!

[ThaiFoodGuy]

Here in Ottawa, Canada, we installed "safe injection sites" throughout our downtown core which was pitched as a means to reduce the negative impact of drug addicts using their drugs on the street. Well WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT just a few years later the problem is worse than it's ever been, dirty needles and broken crack pipes litter the sidewalks everywhere, we've had to triple our paramedic and firefighter recruitment efforts ONLY because we need them administering NARCAN, etc. I could go on and on.

The feel-good solutions veiled as help and support have not worked. It's time to actually crack down.

[Fanta]

  On 10/24/2022 at 2:13 PM, Soidog said:

People who abuse drugs are total losers

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Fixed it for you - people who abuse drugs are lost.

They need help to find their way again. That said, some people are just hopeless and can never be saved from themselves but that doesn’t mean society should abandon their responsibility to try to help them. There are more jails than rehab facilities in Thailand and that is back to front. Jails for users should be a last resort not the preferred option. 

[HiuMak]

  On 10/24/2022 at 11:40 AM, ChrisS said:

"How can Thailand win its war on drugs?"

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Never.

There is a saying, if you can't win them, join them.

[Manu]

  On 10/24/2022 at 2:13 PM, Soidog said:

People who abuse drugs are total losers and a drag on the good people in society.

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Are people who abuse "alcohol" also total losers and a drag on the good people in society? But that's ok for you cause it is legal, right?

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Sorry but I prefer the hardline crack down and make everyone in the supply chain and distribution feel real pain.

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Well make alcohol, another addiction responsible of so much misery just as much as illegal drugs, illegal then in your views of the perfect world.

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I don’t buy this counselling nonsense.

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Let's stop right now all alcoholics anonymous "counselling nonsense" around the world. Like Soidog says, only harsh repression works.

[Soidog]

  On 10/25/2022 at 1:20 AM, Manu said:

Are people who abuse "alcohol" also total losers and a drag on the good people in society? But that's ok for you cause it is legal, right?

Well make alcohol, another addiction responsible of so much misery just as much as illegal drugs, illegal then in your views of the perfect world.

Let's stop right now all alcoholics anonymous "counselling nonsense" around the world. Like Soidog says, only harsh repression works.

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Your whole argument falls down Manu on the basis that you make assumptions of what I think regarding alcohol. If you want a debate or conversation then have one by all means. But a long post based on assumptions sort of turns me away. 

[Soidog]

  On 10/24/2022 at 8:59 PM, Fanta said:

Fixed it for you - people who abuse drugs are lost.

They need help to find their way again. That said, some people are just hopeless and can never be saved from themselves but that doesn’t mean society should abandon their responsibility to try to help them. There are more jails than rehab facilities in Thailand and that is back to front. Jails for users should be a last resort not the preferred option. 

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I agree @Fanta  there are actually two questions that need addressing. 
1. How can’t Thailand win the war in drugs?

2. How does Thailand deal with the current mess drugs are causing. 
 

Both need to be addressed in parallel and both require very different approaches.

Hardline absolute zero tolerance to sort out 1

Support, rehab and counselling so sort out 2. 

[Manu]

  On 10/25/2022 at 4:02 AM, Soidog said:

Your whole argument falls down Manu on the basis that you make assumptions of what I think regarding alcohol. If you want a debate or conversation then have one by all means. But a long post based on assumptions sort of turns me away. 

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If your views described in your original are put into reality for illegal drugs, then it is then logical to assume that we have to do the same with alcohol since it does as much damage (3 million deaths every year worlwide https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/alcohol). You said: "I don’t buy this counselling nonsense. " So only for drug addicts or you think we should do the same with alcohol addicts? I guess you do not think that so the next question is: why do you want to help an alcohol addict and not a drug addict? both are exactly the same.

[Manu]

  On 10/24/2022 at 8:59 PM, Fanta said:

Fixed it for you - people who abuse drugs are lost.

They need help to find their way again. That said, some people are just hopeless and can never be saved from themselves but that doesn’t mean society should abandon their responsibility to try to help them. There are more jails than rehab facilities in Thailand and that is back to front. Jails for users should be a last resort not the preferred option. 

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Yeah but jail for how long? In Kabul in Afghanistan, they have a huge problem with drugs. The Talibans literally hunt them down, treat them like dogs, put them in camps for 45 days with no medicine (so pratically jail), many eventually died there (one can imagine the pain the others are going through). And then they let them free: no need to mention than pratically all of them go back straight to drugs (https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2022/7/25/photos-despair-and-poverty-fuel-drug-use-in-afghanistan). I do not know the solution but jails is in my opinion never the option. I guess it is all about spending enough money to build enough ressources to deal with drug problems and only a real political will could achive that (in Kabul, they have none of that, not even enough to feed those addicts). That goes for Thailand as any other country.

[Soidog]

  On 10/25/2022 at 4:15 AM, Manu said:

If your views described in your original are put into reality for illegal drugs, then it is then logical to assume that we have to do the same with alcohol since it does as much damage (3 million deaths every year worlwide https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/alcohol). You said: "I don’t buy this counselling nonsense. " So only for drug addicts or you think we should do the same with alcohol addicts? I guess you do not think that so the next question is: why do you want to help an alcohol addict and not a drug addict? both are exactly the same.

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I believe in democracy. Democracy appoints leaders and hence law makers. If democracy has arrived at a place where the people want and accept a particular drug and not others then that’s fine with me. We pays and deal with the negatives of those approved “drugs”

Alcohol is a dangerous, powerful and addictive drug. It causes as much pain and suffering to society as many other drugs. Societies around the world have “accepted” they will live with it while others (mainly for religious regions haven’t).

So yes, if we could roll back the clock or people said no more alcohol and the laws says no more, then enforce it with zero tolerance. Alcohol is a killer and a scourge in most societies.  
 

I don’t like any laws which are enforced with blurred boundaries by design. It’s the same with drink driving. People in Thailand and the U.K. debate is it ok to have one or two beers and still drive. Make it ZERO. 

[Soidog]

  On 10/25/2022 at 4:27 AM, Manu said:

Yeah but jail for how long? In Kabul in Afghanistan, they have a huge problem with drugs.

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Sorry @Manubut that’s a different issue. If you say to a person that they can either make enough money to literally eat and feed their families, but if caught you will be jailed for life, most would still choose to break the law rather than see their kids die. That’s not the same choice to be made in developed and developing countries. The question was How can Thailand win its war on drugs? 
 

The answer to the Afghan drug problem is entirely different. 

[Manu]

  On 10/25/2022 at 4:29 AM, Soidog said:

So yes, if we could roll back the clock or people said no more alcohol and the laws says no more, then enforce it with zero tolerance. Alcohol is a killer and a scourge in most societies. 

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In an utopist ideal world, everything that kills should be made illegal then. Cigarettes, motors, pesticides, weapons of any kind, junk food and coca cola, etc... etc... You believe in democracy so everything is legal and for sale under laws. Everything but drugs. Perhaps the problem would be eased (but never erased like all the problems of things that kill) if at some point we recognise that is where the problem lies...