News Forum - Putin declares Mariupol ‘liberated’ despite Ukrainian troops, civilians holding out

[Fanta]

15 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Would not advocate killing POWs unless caught clearly committing war crimes, including not stopping their unit personnel in such activities ( which has never been documented in history with Russians).

You said the entire Russian invasion is a war crime so surely all the Russian soldiers are accomplices and therefore deserve the same punishment? And you have now expanded your definition of “natural justice” from perpetrators of alleged war crimes to include NCOs and officers. Your slippery slope of vengeance is turning into a potential avalanche of indiscriminate, mass killings. Do the Ukrainian soldiers also allegedly committing war crimes get the same treatment?

[oldschooler]

14 hours ago, Vigo said:

Wow. Thousands have been trying to flee but have been blocked by the Russians who refuse to allow them to leave. This past weekend's most recent attempt by the Red Cross only secured passage of 100 elderly and children. The Russians refused to allow the ICRC to take more.  The Red Cross has been trying for weeks to get them out.   https://www.icrc.org/en/document/ukraine-conflict-icrc-urgent-safe-passage-save-lives-mariupol   This has nothing to do with President Zelensky's orders.

Your claim is a wild exaggeration. Your bias is showing when you make the attempt to claim amazing USA superpower to enact a regime change in the Ukraine. The EU has always had an influence in the Ukraine in large part because of the Ukraine's supply of valuable products. You are probably unaware but Canada has a sizeable ethnic Ukrainian community (just under 4% of total population) and they are located in some key parliamentary districts giving them political clout. It's clout that has been used more forcefully than any other ethnic community in Canada. Ukraine will receive CAD $618 million direct aid this year plus tens of millions in indirect aid from Canada, making it the  largest recipient of aid from Canada. It helps that  Finance Minister, and current deputy PM is a Ukrainian Canadian, with a Ukrainian nationalist father.  I  present all this to show that no, it is not USA behind a magical plot.  Ukraine has a broad support base in west.

And no USA did not set conflict in motion. That is a feeble excuse for the  reality that the Ukrainians and Russians hate each other. It goes  back centuries. The Russian caused Ukraine famine during Stalin era was just another chapter in the maniacal hatred.  The Ukrainians made life difficult for the ethnic Russians in Donbas. The ethnic Russians were denied fair treatment, and work opportunity. Their education was curtailed. It was outright systemic state sanctioned discrimination because the  Ukrainians wanted the ethnic Russians out. This was motivated in part because of the overt Russian meddling in Ukrainian national affairs. The Russians were just as horrible to ethnic Ukrainians. The Russians have entered the ethnic Russian regions on their own declared right to defend the  ethnic Russians. That was their own position, not as a response to any USA  activity. Now that Russia has screwed up, it brings out the NATO expansion excuse and the USA  involvement.  It is all about longstanding ethnic hatred. Nothing more. It is why so many people have left Eastern Europe  for enlightened western Europe, Canada, Australia and USA over the past 200+ years. They were tired of the ethnic hatred and primitive mindset.

Take out the ethnic hatred component and there is a basis for civility. Canada & USA do it. Nordic European countries do it, despite a past history of violent wars amongst themselves. France, Germany and UK manage to get along without war despite a past  violent history. Russia is the savage uncouth aggressive nation here, not USA.

Fully Agree. I would add though that Russia exploiting the ethnic hatred for perceived political advantage.
Putin could otherwise care less about “ protecting” ANY Russians (except favored Oligarchs !)

Similar ethnic situation in N. Ireland settled by rational peace agreement and improvements for the previously discriminated Irish barred from certain jobs and not treated equally by law.

As you say this only EVER works under Western Rationale with Educated Rational People Reconciled.

[oldschooler]

3 minutes ago, Fanta said:

You said the entire Russian invasion is a war crime so surely all the Russian soldiers are accomplices and therefore deserve the same punishment? And you have now expanded your definition of “natural justice” from perpetrators of alleged war crimes to include NCOs and officers. Your slippery slope of vengeance is turning into a potential avalanche of indiscriminate, mass killings. Do the Ukrainian soldiers also allegedly committing war crimes get the same treatment?

No. Ukrainians get a free pass from me to kill any and all Russian Invaders, especially officers, who instigated & committed war crimes.
This ought to incentivize Russians not to fight in Ukraine and leave. If not, this is also factored into Ukrainian retribution decisions. Their Call. 
Even civilized advanced UK adopted the German - invented Total War and flattened entire cities to destroy a Genocidal Civilization- Ending Regime, in pure calculated desperation to end the war before their resources ran out and war maybe then lost. 

[oldschooler]

2 hours ago, Fanta said:

It’s always fulfilling to meet expectations. Why don’t enlighten me as to why this is such a big deal? Please note I really don’t give a hoot about politics so easy on the rhetoric and heavy on the K.I.S.S. 

“ War is the continuation of Politics by other means” Clausewitz & Bismarck, THE masters of Realpolitik.

British Queen Elizabeth 1 the prior Master of Asymetrical War / Politics 250 years earlier. War & Politics cannot be separated in reality.

It is Diplomacy that’s nonsense during War / Politics when dealing with uncivilized people like Russians (and Arabs). Only Force works then. 

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

This is the perfectly expected response from Clown World. 

Yes it is. Well done.

[Fanta]

6 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

“War is the continuation of Politics by other means” Clausewitz & Bismarck, THE masters of Realpolitik.

“The foundation of war is economics” - Elon Musk, the guy with the battery and rocket fetish. He should know because he’s been divorced 3 times and has 7 children. 

[oldschooler]

14 minutes ago, Fanta said:

“The foundation of war is economics” - Elon Musk, the guy with the battery and rocket fetish. He should know because he’s been divorced 3 times and has 7 children. 

Economics yes although specific foundations of war are Land / Resources/ Power / Generated Hatred.

[Marble-eye]

55 minutes ago, Fanta said:

You said the entire Russian invasion is a war crime so surely all the Russian soldiers are accomplices and therefore deserve the same punishment? And you have now expanded your definition of “natural justice” from perpetrators of alleged war crimes to include NCOs and officers. Your slippery slope of vengeance is turning into a potential avalanche of indiscriminate, mass killings. Do the Ukrainian soldiers also allegedly committing war crimes get the same treatment?

Why are you so bothered about the Russian soldiers, they are the invaders. Just as I wouldn't expect to be murdered in my own house I couldn't be responsible for anyones safety breaking into my house, and having said that if I broke into some else's house I would expect the same treatment as I would give.

But after what they have done to Ukraine and the Ukranians they should count themselves lucky that they still have friends like you and your ilk.

[vlad]

Today in another first for the war in Ukraine Boris Johnson will address the Ukrainian Parliament the only World leader to do so. From the speech he will give Boris will give a Churchillian speech to the Ukrainian Parliament and particularly Zelenski. He is also giving £300 Million in military aid. As a sign of friendship between Ukraine and the UK, a Street is to be named in Odesa in Boris's name. We love Ukraine and it seems Ukraine loves the Brits.

[Fanta]

2 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Why are you so bothered about the Russian soldiers, they are the invaders

They are soldiers. Their masters are the invaders. Think about that.

[Marble-eye]

3 minutes ago, Fanta said:

They are soldiers. Their masters are the invaders. Think about that.

Who is doing the killing in a sovereign country, think about that.

[vlad]

3 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

Why are you so bothered about the Russian soldiers, they are the invaders. Just as I wouldn't expect to be murdered in my own house I couldn't be responsible for anyones safety breaking into my house, and having said that if I broke into some else's house I would expect the same treatment as I would give.

But after what they have done to Ukraine and the Ukranians they should count themselves lucky that they still have friends like you and your ilk.

Marble we now know Russian Soldiers have taken out civilians and shot them then gone back into their home and raped their wives with their kids in the same house and they then stole their possessions. Yet members on here support what Putin is doing, they should be ashamed to be Western.

[oldschooler]

3 hours ago, Fanta said:

They are soldiers. Their masters are the invaders. Think about that.

Just mindless drones ..not “ soldiers” in civilized sense ( Geneva Convention etc) ….responsible adults though…..Death to the Fascist Invader

[Fanta]

23 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Just mindless drones ..not “ soldiers” in civilized sense ( Geneva Convention etc) ….responsible adults though…..Death to the Fascist Invader

That’s the spirit! Dehumanize them so you won’t feel bad later on about cheering for the slaughter. I recommend employing the Joe Ferrari technique to save on cleanup & ammunition costs while also building upper body strength. No pain, no gain.

Now, can you go back to talking about NATO, Europe and the bigger picture please? 

 

[Fester]

11 hours ago, Fanta said:

10:1 The Germans did that in many countries in response to partisan attacks on their soldiers in occupied territory. It is a slippery slope when you start to kill prisoners and naive to not expect retribution to follow.

It can be an even more slippery slope when you invade other countries and not expect retribution to follow.

[Fester]

11 hours ago, Fanta said:

So what’s the big deal? It was 9 years ago and before Russia annexed Crimea. The Bush family had business connections with the Bin Laden family and nothing ever came of that. This looks like a demonization of anything Russian and anyone even remotely connected to Russia. The orange man should probably have to answer a few questions if the witch-hunt is serious and not just tabloid fodder. 

The orange witch hunt failed miserably already.

[Fester]

6 hours ago, vlad said:

Today in another first for the war in Ukraine Boris Johnson will address the Ukrainian Parliament the only World leader to do so. From the speech he will give Boris will give a Churchillian speech to the Ukrainian Parliament and particularly Zelenski. He is also giving £300 Million in military aid. As a sign of friendship between Ukraine and the UK, a Street is to be named in Odesa in Boris's name. We love Ukraine and it seems Ukraine loves the Brits.

Bojo Boulevard?

[Fester]

6 hours ago, Fanta said:

They are soldiers. Their masters are the invaders. Think about that.

Just call them invading, murdering slaves then.

[vlad]

Strange isn't it when we post with links provided on the rapes, the Murders of civvies with their hands tied together behind their backs, and multiple war crimes now being uncovered, by Russian forces the propaganda ministers on here dodge those questions and would rather deflect and ignore the answer to the questions altogether.  

[Fester]

6 minutes ago, vlad said:

Strange isn't it when we post with links provided on the rapes, the Murders of civvies with their hands tied together behind their backs, and multiple war crimes now being uncovered, by Russian forces the propaganda ministers on here dodge those questions and would rather deflect and ignore the answer to the questions altogether.  

Not so strange after 2 months listening to the constant carp from the Ministry of Denial and Propaganda spokespeople.

I just call it The New Abnormal.

[Rookiescot]

6 hours ago, Fanta said:

They are soldiers. Their masters are the invaders. Think about that.

Western soldiers very rarely engage in the same things. Why is that?

[astro]

1 hour ago, vlad said:

Strange isn't it when we post with links provided on the rapes, the Murders of civvies with their hands tied together behind their backs, and multiple war crimes now being uncovered, by Russian forces the propaganda ministers on here dodge those questions and would rather deflect and ignore the answer to the questions altogether.  

What questions would that be?

Whether one is prepared to demonise the entire Russian military or otherwise one must be a 'comrade' of Putin?

Whether one is willing to go along with the other armchair warriors here and approve & applaud lynch justice towards random POWs or otherwise one must be hypocritical and have nothing better to do with one's life than posting on a forum?

 

This is no longer a worthwhile thread to participate in....

[Marble-eye]

8 minutes ago, astro said:

What questions would that be?

Whether one is prepared to demonise the entire Russian military or otherwise one must be a 'comrade' of Putin?

Whether one is willing to go along with the other armchair warriors here and approve & applaud lynch justice towards random POWs or otherwise one must be hypocritical and have nothing better to do with one's life than posting on a forum?

This is no longer a worthwhile thread to participate in....

Missing you already.

[Rookiescot]

Its odd isn't it. Czar Putin, Russia, rapists and murders, the Czar Putin apologists, all have one thing in common.

They are the victims in all of this.

[HolyCowCm]

FYI from me. If you support Putin and his BS invasion and atrocities he has his kids and troops doing, then you might be part of the problem and god save our world. I used to like Putin, but now after looking left and right I can only say that he is a tyrant. Yes, I do look left and right which maybe the real way for an Amerian to do. But it is my way a I will never get sucked in on anyone's rhetoric.