News Forum - Putin declares Mariupol ‘liberated’ despite Ukrainian troops, civilians holding out

[Rookiescot]

Just now, Fanta said:

Thousands? From where? The steelworks apparently has 1.000 civilians trapped underground. Why not just let the civilians walk out holding a white flag? The soldiers must surrender. To think Ukrainian soldiers would be allowed to pass through Russian controlled territory back into Ukraine is not realistic. 

Oh they must surrender? And put themselves at the mercy of Czar Putins thugs. Dream on. Any soldier worth the name is going to fight to the end rather than face that.

[Rookiescot]

2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Get help. Or harass someone else. 

Harass? Surely we are just discussing a topic.

[EdwardV]

One of the reasons Russia is grinding cities to dust: 

Strategically speaking, the only place they [Russians] can advance in is the areas they have completely destroyed. So they completely destroyed the whole of Novotoshkivka, there was no place to hold the defense -- and they occupied it," Hayday said. Novotoshkivka fell on April 25, according to Ukrainian officials. 

(13) Russians only advancing in areas they've destroyed, Luhansk official says (cnn.com)

While I think there are additional reasons, like creating refugees, it does explain why Russia is advancing so slowly in the Donbas region. Takes time to reduce cities and towns to rubble. Another reason for a slow advance, and in some areas retreat, is this: 

 

A quarter of the Russian battalion groups that invaded Ukraine have likely now been rendered "ineffective," according to the UK's Ministry of Defence. According to its figures, Russia committed over 120 battalion tactical groups, approximately 65% of its entire ground combat strength, at the start of the invasion. "It is likely that more than a quarter of these units have now been rendered combat ineffective," the Ministry of Defence said in its latest update. "Some of Russia’s most elite units, including the VDV Airborne Forces, have suffered the highest levels of attrition. It will probably take years for Russia to reconstitute these forces."

(13) UK says a quarter of Russian battalion groups that invaded Ukraine are likely "ineffective" (cnn.com)

That's brutal in any army. You can see the results in the fact the advance in the Donbas appears to be stalling, while Ukraine is advancing slowly southward from Kharkiv, and eastward toward Kherson. 

 

[oldschooler]

3 hours ago, astro said:

How would one know who of the captured Russian soldiers is guilty of warcrimes or not?

I am not defending any criminals, make an effort to comprehend what you read before spouting off.

I am judging your stance for being no different in wholesale arbitration of an entire group and promotion of the very crimes you condemn - from the comfort of your armchair.

This kind of lynch mob mentality is what a distant observer and commentator should be working against, not cheer along.

The entire Russian invasion is a serious war crime so any participants in it like russian soldiers or spies are automatically war criminals who when caught in the field, whether or not at or near mass Ukrainian murder sites, can expect summary Justice.

The defence of “ I was just following orders” hasn’t cut it in courts since 1945. That’s just Reality. I have zero problem with it. 

You continue to evade the key questions I raised :

what if it’s YOUR village or family abused ?

any court- convicted war criminals will have long escaped back to Russia so will never face Justice ?

[astro]

1 hour ago, oldschooler said:

You continue to evade the key questions I raised :

what if it’s YOUR village or family abused ?

Unlike yourself, I certainly wouldn't apologise, condone and applaud any atrocities towards random captives as retribution.

 

I can honestly say that I am way beyond such barbaric base-instinct reactions.

You aren't even directly affected, there is no excuse for your impertinent propagating of lynch justice and war crimes.

Edited May 2, 2022 by astro

[dj230]

On 4/22/2022 at 11:59 AM, KomanderChicknNugget said:

The video of Putin declaring victory in Mariupol showed him speaking with Shoigu at a table while he clutched it intensely with both hands, with his right foot slowly twitching at irregular intervals, and his left shoulder spasming while his right thumb kept rising as if he could not control any of it.  All evidence of Parkinson's Disease. 

There was also just one edit about one minute in to the video, which indicates he may have had a larger spasm that they did not want seen.

was reported today he has cancer, having surgery soon

[oldschooler]

34 minutes ago, astro said:

Unlike yourself, I certainly wouldn't apologise, condone and applaud any atrocities towards random captives as retribution.

I can honestly say that I am way beyond such barbaric base-instinct reactions.

You aren't even directly affected, there is no excuse for your impertinent propagating of lynch justice and war crimes.

Yeah I’m sure you’re a perfect saint and better than the rest of us …. what sermonizing arrogance & hypocrisy……

[Fanta]

7 hours ago, EdwardV said:

That's brutal in any army. You can see the results in the fact the advance in the Donbas appears to be stalling, while Ukraine is advancing slowly southward from Kharkiv, and eastward toward Kherson. 

If it is true. And when have claims of  casualties inflicted on the enemy during war time ever been true? I want to know what those Ukrainians tanks are made of - 144 destroyed or captured since the war started. Now that is amazing. 

[Fanta]

5 hours ago, dj230 said:

was reported today he has cancer, having surgery soon

An unconfirmed rumor, not a report.
Sadaam Insane had a massive stroke and also had cancer. Hitler had one testicle. See a pattern here? 

[EdwardV]

6 minutes ago, Fanta said:

If it is true. And when have claims of  casualties inflicted on the enemy during war time ever been true? I want to know what those Ukrainians tanks are made of - 144 destroyed or captured since the war started. Now that is amazing. 

Of course any numbers needs to be taken with salt, some (cough, russian, cough), with more salt than others. Still with that attitude, no one  would be able to plan anything. Estimates have to be given. Regardless you can always look at results. Those are not all that great for Russia right now. You can see a large lack of forward movement even in Donbas. Anywhere else and the lines are static or going in the wrong direction. 
 

Something to keep an eye on. Ukraine’s rapid integration into modern western equipment. Also what will make up the $33B package from the US. 

[Fanta]

On 5/1/2022 at 4:01 PM, oldschooler said:

What if HIS or YOUR families raped & killed by these rats?  Never fear. Ukrainians already administering natural field Justice before these savages scuttle back home. Hopefully on a ten to one ratio. 

10:1 The Germans did that in many countries in response to partisan attacks on their soldiers in occupied territory. It is a slippery slope when you start to kill prisoners and naive to not expect retribution to follow.

[Fanta]

28 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Regardless you can always look at results

I look at the British Biased Company’s maps that they source from the Institute of Washington Stories and that red Russki section gets bigger every day. 

[EdwardV]

27 minutes ago, Fanta said:

I look at the British Biased Company’s maps that they source from the Institute of Washington Stories and that red Russki section gets bigger every day. 

Yeah but how fast? Now look to the north and west and you will see the red shrinking slowly too. The red should be expanding rapidly, before the western heavy artillery arrives. 

[Freeduhdumb]

10 hours ago, Fanta said:

I have condemned the invasion already. You are clearly  suffering delusions if you think Russia will leave and your constant attacks on others say a lot about you. Get help. 

 

Russian oligarch with close ties to Putin met with Hunter Biden in Moscow over potential investment deal before meeting TWICE more in New York and DC...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10767957/Hunter-Biden-flew-Moscow-meeting-sanctioned-Russian-oligarch-Vladimir-Yevtushenkov.html

 

[Fanta]

Just now, EdwardV said:

Yeah but how fast? Now look to the north and west and you will see the red shrinking slowly too. The red should be expanding rapidly, before the western heavy artillery arrives. 

It is a 300 km long front that is apparently a quagmire. That’s a long line to advance and supply and the longest offensive front to date in the war. The Russians known tactics are to punch through a defensive line and then encircle, not advance the whole line. Plus the Russians need to flatten all the villages and towns along the way because they seem to enjoy that. That takes time. All that artillery has to actually get somewhere near the front lines for it to be of any use.
“Russia's defence ministry said in a briefing it had hit 38 military targets in Ukraine, including ammunition depots and control centres”

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-02/ukraine-latest-russia-resumes-shelling-mariupol-steel-plant/101032218

 

 

[EdwardV]

1 minute ago, Fanta said:

Plus the Russians need to flatten all the villages and towns along the way because they seem to enjoy that. That takes time. All that artillery has to actually get somewhere near the front lines for it to be of any use.

True that. And the Russians do so love their artillery.  

[Fanta]

Looks like Romania has been partially cut out of the supply chain. 

Odessa Governor Maksym Marchenko says Russia's army has struck a strategic bridge in southwest Ukraine

 

“The bridge provides the only railway connection and the key highway link to areas west of Odessa. Its destruction cuts access to shipments of weapons and other cargo from neighbouring Romania.”

https://7news.com.au/news/conflict/russia-strikes-strategic-bridge-ukraine-c-6655571

 

 

[EdwardV]

That sucks. I wonder if they put up one of those Russian bridges. Seems they captured a lot of them. Time to put them to good use. 

[Fanta]

47 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Russian oligarch with close ties to Putin met with Hunter Biden in Moscow over potential investment deal before meeting TWICE more in New York and DC...

So what’s the big deal? It was 9 years ago and before Russia annexed Crimea. The Bush family had business connections with the Bin Laden family and nothing ever came of that. This looks like a demonization of anything Russian and anyone even remotely connected to Russia. The orange man should probably have to answer a few questions if the witch-hunt is serious and not just tabloid fodder. 

[Freeduhdumb]

This is the perfectly expected response from Clown World. 

[Freeduhdumb]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

So what’s the big deal? It was 9 years ago and before Russia annexed Crimea. The Bush family had business connections with the Bin Laden family and nothing ever came of that. This looks like a demonization of anything Russian and anyone even remotely connected to Russia. The orange man should probably have to answer a few questions if the witch-hunt is serious and not just tabloid fodder. 

This is the perfectly expected response from Clown World. 

[Fanta]

7 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

This is the perfectly expected response from Clown World. 

It’s always fulfilling to meet expectations. Why don’t enlighten me as to why this is such a big deal? Please note I really don’t give a hoot about politics so easy on the rhetoric and heavy on the K.I.S.S. 

[EdwardV]

From the “WTF” column:

The U.S. official described the Russians' operations in the Donbas as "very cautious, very tepid, very uneven," attributing some of the failures to "a risk and casualty aversion" that has persisted in both the air and on the ground.

"They'll move in [to an area], declare victory and then withdraw their troops, only to let the Ukrainians take it back," the official said.

https://www.axios.com/russia-donbas-offensive-ukraine-failures-c244ed14-da97-435c-8696-124968f92d95.html

Why would they withdraw? Do they lack the resources to secure the area behind them? Are they worried about their troops murdering, raping and pillaging and don’t need more bad press? Or in the fact they are only advancing in areas they have reduced to dust. They now suffer from the same problem as the Ukrainian’s, the lack of defensive cover? Some other reason? Honestly I don’t understand why you would want to fight over the same piece of property more than once. 

 

[Fanta]

6 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Why would they withdraw? Do they lack the resources to secure the area behind them? Are they worried about their troops murdering, raping and pillaging and don’t need more bad press? Or in the fact they are only advancing in areas they have reduced to dust. They now suffer from the same problem as the Ukrainian’s, the lack of defensive cover? Some other reason? Honestly I don’t understand why you would want to fight over the same piece of property more than once. 

The Russian artillery clears the area, the troops roll in looking for anything worth looting then fall back in disappointment to their camp for a bowl of borsch and a bucket of bullets while the zeroed in artillery starts shelling any Ukrainian troops who have ventured back in to reclaim the area. My extensive combat experience in Command & Conquer knows this is a winning strategy.
Or the Ukrainians are sucking them in by strategically falling back and then whammo!

I think the Russians aren’t all that concerned about bad press. 

[oldschooler]

4 hours ago, Fanta said:

10:1 The Germans did that in many countries in response to partisan attacks on their soldiers in occupied territory. It is a slippery slope when you start to kill prisoners and naive to not expect retribution to follow.

Would not advocate killing POWs unless caught clearly committing war crimes, including not stopping their unit personnel in such activities ( which has never been documented in history with Russians).

Russians unconcerned about retribution when they started the war crimes back in 2014 by seizing Ukrainian land etc.

Ukrainian Right & Choice as Victims.  

Germans were Genocidal Invaders.

Russians are War Criminal Invaders.

No Comparison to Ukrainians defending homeland who are comparable to those Invaded Partisans NOT those Germans.