News Forum - Putin declares Mariupol ‘liberated’ despite Ukrainian troops, civilians holding out

[Marble-eye]

11 hours ago, Tim_Melb said:

I am not denying that it appears that the Russians have done some terrible things. I'm just pointing out that it needs to be investigated and confirmed one way or another. You and I are not there and neither of us knows what the actual facts are. It's wrong to say a missile strike on a residential build is inherently a war crime when you don't know the circumstances. Remember the strike on the hospital a few weeks ago? It seems that there were Ukrainian troops using one of the buildings. Technically it could be claimed that could be a Ukrainian war crime for using hospital staff and patients as human sheilds. I'm not saying it was but it could be seen that way. So making war crimes accusations is a lot more complicated than sensational media headlines and emotional responses. I have no doubt that their will be war crimes trials when this is over and that their will be a lot more guilty Russians than Ukrainians but it's way to soon to say anyone is guilty without indisputable evidence let alone a thorough understanding of what is or is not a war crime. 

So to put it in a nutshell and basically make all your claims redundant, the Russians should not be there in the first place, and if we can agree on that issue, the follow on from that is without the Russians being there.... there would be no war crimes, no rapes and no mass murdering, would that be a fair assumption? 

So the Russians have 2 choices, either leave of their own free will or be killed, Putin doesn't seem to bother how many troops he is losing, then why should any one else. 

The Russians are the problem here and not the Ukrainians and anybody who sees it differently most certainly needs councilling. 

 

[Fanta]

56 minutes ago, Marble-eye said:

So to put it in a nutshell and basically make all your claims redundant, the Russians should not be there in the first place, and if we can agree on that issue, the follow on from that is without the Russians being there.... there would be no war crimes, no rapes and no mass murdering, would that be a fair assumption? 

So the Russians have 2 choices, either leave of their own free will or be killed, Putin doesn't seem to bother how many troops he is losing, then why should any one else. 

The Russians are the problem here and not the Ukrainians and anybody who sees it differently most certainly needs councilling. 

He refuses to condemn without a trial. Your blathering is irrelevant to that fact. 

[Marble-eye]

18 minutes ago, Fanta said:

He refuses to condemn without a trial. Your blathering is irrelevant to that fact. 

And your insults are unwelcome, but expected. 

And when we get down to the nitty gritty it's dummy out of cot time. 

[Tim_Melb]

3 hours ago, Marble-eye said:

So to put it in a nutshell and basically make all your claims redundant, the Russians should not be there in the first place, and if we can agree on that issue, the follow on from that is without the Russians being there.... there would be no war crimes, no rapes and no mass murdering, would that be a fair assumption? 

So the Russians have 2 choices, either leave of their own free will or be killed, Putin doesn't seem to bother how many troops he is losing, then why should any one else. 

The Russians are the problem here and not the Ukrainians and anybody who sees it differently most certainly needs councilling. 

While I agree the Russians should not be there that does not change the fact that they are. I will not argue with you about the reason they are or who is responsible as that is equally complex and you will clearly believe it isn't. Nothing in this situation is simple and making snap jugments based on media propaganda is stupidity. My main concern is for the safety and the plight of the innocent Ukrainian civilians and for the truth about what is happening there. 

[oldschooler]

3 hours ago, Fanta said:

He refuses to condemn without a trial. Your blathering is irrelevant to that fact. 

Well, how damn reasonable & magnanimous of him!  pontificating on legalities from his safe armchair!

What if HIS or YOUR families raped & killed by these rats?  Never fear. Ukrainians already administering natural field Justice before these savages scuttle back home. Hopefully on a ten to one ratio. 

Russians certainly the cause of vast majority of war crimes & atrocities in Ukraine. I’ll believe UK / US Govts on this. It’s just what Russians always do everywhere they invade.

Preliminary evidence is overwhelming. So stuff any “ even -handed “ rhetoric.

Russian invasion & indiscriminate killing itself war crimes so all Russian military in Ukraine not surrendering are fair game for quick death. 30,000 of these rats dead already hopefully with perhaps 20k more Wounded Deserted POW.
 

Putin doesn’t care about his loyal enslaved armed drones so why should anyone else ? apart from their wretched enslaved families of course. 

Courts will take years and the guilty never punished …unless caught outside their rathole country that is

[Marble-eye]

1 hour ago, Tim_Melb said:

While I agree the Russians should not be there that does not change the fact that they are. I will not argue with you about the reason they are or who is responsible as that is equally complex and you will clearly believe it isn't. Nothing in this situation is simple and making snap jugments based on media propaganda is stupidity. My main concern is for the safety and the plight of the innocent Ukrainian civilians and for the truth about what is happening there. 

If your concern is really for the Ukrainians that are being murdered etc etc, you should be voicing it as loud as you can for the Russians to leave, like many on here that does not seem to be the case. 

It would seem that you and a few others on here are making excuses for the Russians that are killing the Ukranians and that is not acceptable in any society..agreed? The Russians need to get their sorry backsides out of Ukraine as quick as possible and hopefully the slow process of bringing the perpetrators of the heinous crimes that is being committed in the name of the man with big ego and little dick to justice. 

Why people find this so difficult to understand defies all logic. 

[Fanta]

18 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Well, how damn reasonable & magnanimous of him!  pontificating on legalities from his safe armchair!

What if HIS or YOUR families raped & killed by these rats?  Never fear. Ukrainians already administering natural field Justice before these savages scuttle back home. Hopefully on a ten to one ratio. 

Russians certainly the cause of vast majority of war crimes & atrocities in Ukraine. I’ll believe UK / US Govts on this. It’s just what Russians always do everywhere they invade.

Preliminary evidence is overwhelming. So stuff any “ even -handed “ rhetoric.

Russian invasion & indiscriminate killing itself war crimes so all Russian military in Ukraine not surrendering are fair game for quick death. 30,000 of these rats dead already hopefully with perhaps 20k more Wounded Deserted POW.
 

Putin doesn’t care about his loyal enslaved armed drones so why should anyone else ? apart from their wretched enslaved families of course. 

Courts will take years and the guilty never punished …unless caught outside their rathole country that is

He believes in the rule of law not mob justice. You believe in no mercy for Russian POWs. I disagree with your views on this and other things and we have been civil. These continuous attempts by some to shame and shout people down add nothing to a discussion because they are not discussion points, they are emotional rants. What is your aim in dragging this up - to elicit discussion or you just have an axe to grind? 

[Marble-eye]

6 minutes ago, Fanta said:

He believes in the rule of law not mob justice. You believe in no mercy for Russian POWs. I disagree with your views on this and other things and we have been civil. These continuous attempts by some to shame and shout people down add nothing to a discussion because they are not discussion points, they are emotional rants. What is your aim in dragging this up - to elicit discussion or you just have an axe to grind? 

It is getting more and more difficult for you to argue the truth, but don't worry it is not going to go away just because you insult other posters. 

And you are on stoney ground defending Russians whilst speaking about "the rule of law not mob justice" 

[astro]

54 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

Ukrainians already administering natural field Justice before these savages scuttle back home. Hopefully on a ten to one ratio. 

So, you're approving and applauding war crimes.

Shame on you!

[astro]

While the reactions to a brutal invader are understandable to a degree - after all, the downwards spiral of savagery is what war does to people - they include inexcusable war crimes.

IMO there is absolutely no justification for any uninvolved individual thousands of miles away to cheer along.

[oldschooler]

5 hours ago, Fanta said:

He believes in the rule of law not mob justice. You believe in no mercy for Russian POWs. I disagree with your views on this and other things and we have been civil. These continuous attempts by some to shame and shout people down add nothing to a discussion because they are not discussion points, they are emotional rants. What is your aim in dragging this up - to elicit discussion or you just have an axe to grind? 

Naive & Hypocritical. You didn’t answer  my key question ; “what if it’s your family getting raped / killed” ?

Rule of natural law applies. Those who respect no proper laws do not deserve those laws applied to them. Ukrainians might decide on a ten Russian to one innocent kill ratio. Who would really blame them ? There has to be some incentive now for Russians to STOP their barbaric practices. 

ICC will take years and why wait when the guilty will escape if not killed now in retribution ? 

I said Russians “ who do not surrender” are fair game, not (innocent) POWs. BUT it’s not MY family or people getting unlawfully abused and if revenge kill ratio is applied …..

  

[oldschooler]

5 hours ago, astro said:

So, you're approving and applauding war crimes.

Shame on you!

No mention of the instigating crime then ? Criminal should get away right ? 
 

[oldschooler]

4 hours ago, astro said:

While the reactions to a brutal invader are understandable to a degree - after all, the downwards spiral of savagery is what war does to people - they include inexcusable war crimes.

IMO there is absolutely no justification for any uninvolved individual thousands of miles away to cheer along.

Disagree. I shall continue to cheer the Ukrainians in whatever natural Justice THEY as Victims decide to visit upon the Russian criminal savages.
What “ inexcusable” actions are you on about ? Imagine it’s your village being brutalized before answering. We are not talking about common assault here in some leafy suburb. Get Real. 

[astro]

1 hour ago, oldschooler said:

No mention of the instigating crime then ? Criminal should get away right ? 
 

Not only that, but be cheered along - according to your vile & misguided sentiments.

Edited May 1, 2022 by astro

[oldschooler]

14 minutes ago, astro said:

Not only that, but be cheered along - according to your vile & misguided sentiments.

Do keep up. The instigators are RUSSIANS, fool. Save your misdirected delusional vitriol for the original Russian perpetrators. I deal in reality and leave people like you to your criminal - defending delusions. Sure they have the same “ equal rights” extended to their innocent victims, rape with sharp object & bullet in head. Justice Well Served.

Sure you’d get the guy who raped and murdered YOUR wife & daughter a cup of tea and blankets while he called his lawyer from your living room  Pathetic.

[astro]

How would one know who of the captured Russian soldiers is guilty of warcrimes or not?

I am not defending any criminals, make an effort to comprehend what you read before spouting off.

I am judging your stance for being no different in wholesale arbitration of an entire group and promotion of the very crimes you condemn - from the comfort of your armchair.

This kind of lynch mob mentality is what a distant observer and commentator should be working against, not cheer along.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by astro

[Rookiescot]

On 5/1/2022 at 4:36 PM, Fanta said:

He believes in the rule of law not mob justice. You believe in no mercy for Russian POWs. I disagree with your views on this and other things and we have been civil. These continuous attempts by some to shame and shout people down add nothing to a discussion because they are not discussion points, they are emotional rants. What is your aim in dragging this up - to elicit discussion or you just have an axe to grind? 

Oh poor you. Ever the victim. Its an injustice Calimero.

If you cared about Ukrainian civilians you would be calling for Russia to leave the Ukraine not for the Ukraine to capitulate and appease Czar Putin. 

[EdwardV]

A Ukrainian drone destroyed two Russian Raptor-class patrol ships near Snake Island on Monday, Ukraine's military chief said.

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-drone-destroyed-russian-ships-black-sea-snake-island-video-1702557?amp=1

The link has a short video of the two strikes. Keep this up and there won’t be much left of the Black Sea fleet. 

 

[Fanta]

35 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

If you cared about Ukrainian civilians you would be calling for Russia to leave the Ukraine not for the Ukraine to capitulate and appease Czar Putin

Tired of repeating myself. A negotiated ceasefire is not a capitulation. I won’t allow you to shout me down as you do anyone that doesn’t prescribe to your messages of hate wrapped up in war crime allegations or your desire to fight to the last Ukrainian. You are beyond tiresome and seemingly beyond reason. 

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, Fanta said:

Tired of repeating myself. A negotiated ceasefire is not a capitulation. I won’t allow you to shout me down as you do anyone that doesn’t prescribe to your messages of hate wrapped up in war crime allegations or your desire to fight to the last Ukrainian. You are beyond tiresome and seemingly beyond reason. 

So why are you not calling for Russia to leave the Ukraine? That ends all the suffering.

[Vigo]

On 4/30/2022 at 10:43 AM, Fanta said:

A video of 100 old men, women and children would have far more impact than the few shown in that video. Let them go.

It is a siege, not a battle. Zelenskyy could save the census workers some work and order his commander to release the civilians as is his duty under the GC but he refuses to. He has either lost control of the commander there or what? That’s the question that no-one dares to ask or publish. The only suggestion to date has been that the Ukrainian soldiers fear for their lives. Human shields are also a crime under the GC. 

Wow. Thousands have been trying to flee but have been blocked by the Russians who refuse to allow them to leave. This past weekend's most recent attempt by the Red Cross only secured passage of 100 elderly and children. The Russians refused to allow the ICRC to take more.  The Red Cross has been trying for weeks to get them out.   https://www.icrc.org/en/document/ukraine-conflict-icrc-urgent-safe-passage-save-lives-mariupol   This has nothing to do with President Zelensky's orders.

 

On 4/30/2022 at 12:37 PM, Freeduhdumb said:

You're not going to be able to get out of the fact that the United States engineered a coup in Ukraine in 2014. And is in fact what set the conflict in motion... 

Your claim is a wild exaggeration. Your bias is showing when you make the attempt to claim amazing USA superpower to enact a regime change in the Ukraine. The EU has always had an influence in the Ukraine in large part because of the Ukraine's supply of valuable products. You are probably unaware but Canada has a sizeable ethnic Ukrainian community (just under 4% of total population) and they are located in some key parliamentary districts giving them political clout. It's clout that has been used more forcefully than any other ethnic community in Canada. Ukraine will receive CAD $618 million direct aid this year plus tens of millions in indirect aid from Canada, making it the  largest recipient of aid from Canada. It helps that  Finance Minister, and current deputy PM is a Ukrainian Canadian, with a Ukrainian nationalist father.  I  present all this to show that no, it is not USA behind a magical plot.  Ukraine has a broad support base in west.

And no USA did not set conflict in motion. That is a feeble excuse for the  reality that the Ukrainians and Russians hate each other. It goes  back centuries. The Russian caused Ukraine famine during Stalin era was just another chapter in the maniacal hatred.  The Ukrainians made life difficult for the ethnic Russians in Donbas. The ethnic Russians were denied fair treatment, and work opportunity. Their education was curtailed. It was outright systemic state sanctioned discrimination because the  Ukrainians wanted the ethnic Russians out. This was motivated in part because of the overt Russian meddling in Ukrainian national affairs. The Russians were just as horrible to ethnic Ukrainians. The Russians have entered the ethnic Russian regions on their own declared right to defend the  ethnic Russians. That was their own position, not as a response to any USA  activity. Now that Russia has screwed up, it brings out the NATO expansion excuse and the USA  involvement.  It is all about longstanding ethnic hatred. Nothing more. It is why so many people have left Eastern Europe  for enlightened western Europe, Canada, Australia and USA over the past 200+ years. They were tired of the ethnic hatred and primitive mindset.

Take out the ethnic hatred component and there is a basis for civility. Canada & USA do it. Nordic European countries do it, despite a past history of violent wars amongst themselves. France, Germany and UK manage to get along without war despite a past  violent history. Russia is the savage uncouth aggressive nation here, not USA.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Vigo

[Fanta]

24 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

So why are you not calling for Russia to leave the Ukraine? That ends all the suffering.

I have condemned the invasion already. You are clearly  suffering delusions if you think Russia will leave and your constant attacks on others say a lot about you. Get help. 

[Rookiescot]

Just now, Fanta said:

I have condemned the invasion already. You are clearly  suffering delusions if you think Russia will leave and your constant attacks on others say a lot about you. Get help. 

No what you talk about is how the Ukraine should appease Czar Putin. You never condemn his illegal invasion. Indeed you cannot even bring yourself to call it a war.

If you care about the people of the Ukraine why are you not calling for Czar Putin and his thugs to leave the Ukraine? The Ukrainians are not going to stop defending their country. So the only option is for Czar Putin and his thugs to leave.

Why are you not supporting that?

[Fanta]

12 minutes ago, Vigo said:

Thousands have been trying to flee but have been blocked by the Russians who refuse to allow them to leave.

Thousands? From where? The steelworks apparently has 1.000 civilians trapped underground. Why not just let the civilians walk out holding a white flag? The soldiers must surrender. To think Ukrainian soldiers would be allowed to pass through Russian controlled territory back into Ukraine is not realistic. 

[Fanta]

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

No what you talk about is how the Ukraine should appease Czar Putin. You never condemn his illegal invasion. Indeed you cannot even bring yourself to call it a war.

If you care about the people of the Ukraine why are you not calling for Czar Putin and his thugs to leave the Ukraine? The Ukrainians are not going to stop defending their country. So the only option is for Czar Putin and his thugs to leave.

Why are you not supporting that?

Get help. Or harass someone else.