News Forum - Putin declares Mariupol ‘liberated’ despite Ukrainian troops, civilians holding out

[Freeduhdumb]

Just now, Smithydog said:

Unknown. If you provide some actual evidence the department was then perhaps we all could understand. But such doesn't seem to exist except in the minds of debunked and disgraced conspiracy theorists like your disbarred lawyer mate.

It's not unknown... it's a well established fact for those who are honest and do their own due diligence... I have provided a lot of factual and first hand evidence here and you refute all of it with your clear confirmation bias... go do your own research... believe what ever you want to believe. 

[Smithydog]

6 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

You're not going to be able to get out of the fact that the United States engineered a coup in Ukraine in 2014. And is in fact what set the conflict in motion... 

Sorry. I understood you left the last word to me.

There is been no proven evidence to prove your statement, nor have you done so. I have supported all of my statements, even at time using evidence from Russian state news, official government bodies, like the one you used to work for, and other sources. Where is your evidence? Show us so we can examine, test and understand your opinion. I am happy to acknowledge I am wrong if proven so and have done so on a previous occasions on this Forum

Otherwise it is just another misleading conspiracy theory in the minds of a few dedicated to blame everything on anyone else rather than the real people. President Putin, his ego and his corrupt pals.

[EdwardV]

8 minutes ago, Fanta said:

We aren’t privy to the terms of the peace talks so we don’t know what the proposed terms are. For sure Russia will keep their invasion going. I’m surprised they haven’t started bombing the heck out of Kyiv yet only allegedly targeting factories Bleeding Russia out on Ukraine soil is a bad deal for Ukraine if you also believe that the West could abandon Ukraine after the war.  It is also quite optimistic of an eventual Ukraine victory and subsequent Russian retreat behind it’s own borders. I just don’t see that happening. And the weapons won’t be free for much longer if talks about a Lend Lease type deal prove true. 

What peace talks? Those are dead. Bombing Kyiv at this point is just a waste of ordnance for the sake of killing civilians. I didn’t say the west would abandon Ukraine, just after a peace deal there would be a natural decrease in urgency. Ukraine knows that’s likely especially out of the Germans and French. The purpose of lend lease is to get around legalities of US law on donating weapons to other countries.
 

Unless Ukraine can put Russia in a position to need to make peace, they will never be free. That requires bleeding out the Russian army first. 

[Smithydog]

13 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

It's not unknown... it's a well established fact for those who are honest and do their own due diligence... I have provided a lot of factual and first hand evidence here and you refute all of it with your clear confirmation bias... go do your own research... believe what ever you want to believe. 

I provided all my evidence but you don't seem to want to for your own statements about the US State Department. Why not? They are you own statements so if based on real fact you should be easily able to provide credible sources for all of us to read and understand.

Without that they are no better than conspiracy theories and show a pre-determined line of inference about the US. Inferred but not proven.

I debunked the credibility of one of your "pieces of evidence" based on simply a trust factor. You asked us to believe him. I watched the video and wondered who he was. It was then I found out. How are we expected to believe a person disbarred from their own profession for lying? There are plenty of other commentators with no such baggage but you chose to use him as obviously he speaks to your narrative.

Why are you so afraid to provide credible evidence to support your statements? Providing such allows us all to understand your point of view. Seems quite a silly position if you want others to try and believe in what you are saying.

I am quite happy to review your opinion on the subject under discussion as long as you support it.

[Fanta]

7 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

What peace talks? Those are dead

We can hope they are not. It is pointless to discuss the current state of negotiations.  And I was responding to a post stating that peace talks are a waste of time and that Ukraine should not even consider them. imo, that belief is just setting the stage for a death match. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russia–Ukraine_peace_negotiations 

[EdwardV]

2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

And I was responding to a post stating that peace talks are a waste of time and that Ukraine should not even consider them. That is the road to a death match

Agreed and they certainly are not a waste of time. However until Russia decided to be serious and stop asking for things Ukraine has already decided are not acceptable, what’s the point? It’s hard to sit across from someone when your citizens are being murdered. They need to agree to a ceasefire first, and then peace talks can proceed. Problem is that’s not going to happen because that’s not what Putin wants. 

[Fanta]

4 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

It’s hard to sit across from someone when your citizens are being murdered.

Too true. I think any face to face peace talks would have more bouncers in attendance than translators.

[oldschooler]

46 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

Thank you for the last word and I will use it to highlight the falseness of your preferred position.

The unseating of the democratically elected Leader followed his last minute scrapping of the desires of the Ukrainian majority to align with Europe, coincidentally immediately after he paid a visit to his pal Putin.

What you assume is incorrect. What you also fail to recognise is that he chose to leave the country and leave his duties behind, there by triggering a vote against his continuance as President by the elected representatives of the Ukrainian Government. If he was so sure of the righteousness of his position, why didn't he stay and defend himself. Perhaps because of the impending criminal charges for all of the corruption he and his associates did as evidenced by what was found at the Presidential mansion post his hasty departure.

So much has come to light as his own papers revealed and have been examined.

https://www.occrp.org/en/yanukovychleaks-national-project/

You claim a lot about freedom but seem hesitant to acknowledge the freedom of people to voice and chose who they want as Leader and defend themselves against illegal invasions, arrogant corruption, death and destruction. Why do you support such an evidenced corrupt former Leader?

You should change your user name to remove the word free as it clearly doesn't align with any of your opinions.

All true PLUS Yanukovych lied to the voters on a false pro- West / EU platform to gain power. He was a pro- Putin anti- Freedom Putin plant all along before getting exposed.
He fled his post when the game was up, new elections imminent and to avoid being strung up from a lamppost ( or equivalent) ; a typical fate of deceiving tyrants everywhere; hopefully soon to be seen in Moscow….

There have been two subsequent Ukrainian national elections since, none returning pro- Putin puppets. 

[oldschooler]

16 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Too true. I think any face to face peace talks would have more bouncers in attendance than translators.

Zelensky is mirroring / mocking the false trickster Putin by pretending to “negotiate peace”. Even that liar Lavrov admitted Zelensky was a good showman in this regard

somehow reminded me of the old Soviet “basic worker” joke ( true of course). “They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work”. 
 

 

[oldschooler]

29 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Agreed and they certainly are not a waste of time. However until Russia decided to be serious and stop asking for things Ukraine has already decided are not acceptable, what’s the point? It’s hard to sit across from someone when your citizens are being murdered. They need to agree to a ceasefire first, and then peace talks can proceed. Problem is that’s not going to happen because that’s not what Putin wants. 

Exactly. so your last sentence contradicts your opening one.
Peace talks ( at present) ARE clearly premature & a “ waste of time” as Putin is not serious so Zelensky just mirrors / mocks him by pretending to “ negotiate”. This tragic show fulfills some deep political purpose I suppose.

[oldschooler]

41 minutes ago, Fanta said:

We can hope they are not. It is pointless to discuss the current state of negotiations.  And I was responding to a post stating that peace talks are a waste of time and that Ukraine should not even consider them. imo, that belief is just setting the stage for a death match. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russia–Ukraine_peace_negotiations 

Such talks are for illusory show only & set only a comical sideshow “ stage”.

“Diplomacy” an utter nonsense whilst your murderous enemy camps in & seizes your back yard.

Zelensky & Ukraine, with NATO support, like Churchill, will “never surrender” to such evil tyranny. 

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, Smithydog said:

Unknown. If you provide some actual evidence the department was then perhaps we all could understand. But such doesn't seem to exist except in the minds of debunked and disgraced conspiracy theorists like your disbarred lawyer mate.

And even if true, so what ? Russia & USA have both actually done this in the past. USA & Russia are of course clear Enemies& all is “fair” in war, most especially against tyranny.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, Freeduhdumb said:

So you're going to try and tell me that Victoria Nuland's U.S. State Department was not intricately involved in the removal of Yanukovich?

Yes. They may have benefited from it but they certainly didn't organize it. Or do you believe the US state department convinced Yanukovich to reject his parliaments vote and to cuddle up to Czar Putin?

[vlad]

15 minutes ago, oldschooler said:

And even if true, so what ? Russia & USA have both actually done this in the past. USA & Russia are of course clear Enemies& all is “fair” in war, most especially against tyranny.

Silly me I thought this thread was about Putin bragging he had liberated Mariupol.

[Fanta]

23 minutes ago, vlad said:

Silly me I thought this thread was about Putin bragging he had liberated Mariupol.

You got the first 2 words right. 

[Fester]

4 hours ago, Freeduhdumb said:

You're not going to be able to get out of the fact that the United States engineered a coup in Ukraine in 2014. And is in fact what set the conflict in motion... 

You broke your agreement! 

[oldschooler]

4 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Exactly. so your last sentence contradicts your opening one.
Peace talks ( at present) ARE clearly premature & a “ waste of time” as Putin is not serious so Zelensky just mirrors / mocks him by pretending to “ negotiate”. This tragic show fulfills some deep political purpose I suppose.

OR it occurs, useful to both sides for indirect intelligence gathering ….

[oldschooler]

7 hours ago, Manu said:

When an elected politician steals from his own people, it is a bad man, regardless if he only stole a glass of wine or an entire wineyard (especially when all there is to steal is a glass of wine). There are corrupt politicians and not corrupt politicians (not that many unfortunately), if there is any comparaison to do, it is that one and that one only.

“Absolute power corrupts absolutely”

[Fester]

3 hours ago, Fanta said:

You got the first 2 words right. 

Better than none.

[EdwardV]

5 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Exactly. so your last sentence contradicts your opening one.
Peace talks ( at present) ARE clearly premature & a “ waste of time” as Putin is not serious so Zelensky just mirrors / mocks him by pretending to “ negotiate”. This tragic show fulfills some deep political purpose I suppose.

Beside the fact you changed what I wrote. The two sides have not met face to face for a month. At this point talking is just for the sake of keeping lines of communication open for the future. A good endeavor non the less. 

[Manu]

4 hours ago, oldschooler said:

“Absolute power corrupts absolutely”

Yes but less power corrupts just as well (how much is the corruption is going to be  in your favour?). Either you are corrupt or you are not. The difference is simply being you are or you are not. Everyone can only get the point with that one…. Surely?

[oldschooler]

27 minutes ago, Manu said:

Yes but less power corrupts just as well (how much is the corruption is going to be  in your favour?). Either you are corrupt or you are not. The difference is simply being you are or you are not. Everyone can only get the point with that one…. Surely?

I was referring to Putin who appears completely unchecked within Russia and requires,and so receives, no contrary opinions. Xi also in CCP China.

Corruption in Eastern Europe / Russia takes naked absolute economic or monetary form. Results in zero faith in govt. or institutions.

whereas in Western Europe it’s principally subtle barter; exchanging political favours or making business concessions for executive jobs later; a far less corrosive form of corruption , not damaging faith in govt. or institutions. 

[Tim_Melb]

13 hours ago, Marble-eye said:

Say what you like Tim, when the cows are getting butchered on a scale we have never seen the like since ww2, it is not unexpected when one of the cows has a little kick at his butchers. 

The Russians have committed gross war crimes against the Ukranians and the process of investigation is well on the way, the friends of Putin on here may not be happy about it, but hey, who cares, just saying. 

Strange as it may seem I cannot remember you quoting the Geneva Convention when the Russians carry out their murdering spree. 

I am not denying that it appears that the Russians have done some terrible things. I'm just pointing out that it needs to be investigated and confirmed one way or another. You and I are not there and neither of us knows what the actual facts are. It's wrong to say a missile strike on a residential build is inherently a war crime when you don't know the circumstances. Remember the strike on the hospital a few weeks ago? It seems that there were Ukrainian troops using one of the buildings. Technically it could be claimed that could be a Ukrainian war crime for using hospital staff and patients as human sheilds. I'm not saying it was but it could be seen that way. So making war crimes accusations is a lot more complicated than sensational media headlines and emotional responses. I have no doubt that their will be war crimes trials when this is over and that their will be a lot more guilty Russians than Ukrainians but it's way to soon to say anyone is guilty without indisputable evidence let alone a thorough understanding of what is or is not a war crime. 

[Fanta]

Finally some good news out of Mariupol.

“A group of about 20 civilians has left the Azovstal steelworks in Mariupol, the final part of the southern city still in the hands of Ukrainian troops.”

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61285178

[HolyCowCm]

Hi. Just chiming in, Go Ukraine people!