News Forum - Putin declares Mariupol ‘liberated’ despite Ukrainian troops, civilians holding out

[Freeduhdumb]

13 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

No he is probably worse. A disbarred barrister who concocted false claims and was disbarred for it. 

https://www.barstandardsboard.org.uk/disciplinary_finding/76984.html

"Alexander Mercouris concocted a web of “tortuous deceit” to convince a client he was pursuing the bogus claim, including forging a Supreme Court judge’s signature, a tribunal heard.

He even alleged that Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers, President of the Supreme Court, had him abducted and offered him a £50,000 bribe to abandon the case."

https://www.stopfake.org/en/russian-media-columnist-alexander-mercouris-struck-off-over-claim-that-senior-law-lord-had-him-kidnapped/

Also, have you actually read the reports of the organisation you claim to be a former member of? Their daily reports certainly do not paint a good picture of the situation over the years nor the people you keep supporting. Remarkable how often it is commented that the SMM observers were blocked or hindered in some way when Russian troops were near.

https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine

I was there a total of 4 years, and I can count on one hand the times we were blocked in our daily patrols in the Donbass... it usually came down to, roadways being impassible due to the weapons that were present. I left before the Russian invasion... so cannot comment on that. It seems the OSCE held on with a skeleton crew for as long as they could. Regarding the integrity of Mercurious... I can coorrobarate much of what he says in this report with my colleagues on the ground there...

[Smithydog]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

The videos of the civilians trapped under the steelworks show maybe 50 people not the 1,000 as claimed. Why is that? 

Really? if I stand up now and take a photo of my farm it will show a couple of people. But I know that there are far more around me here that are not in the picture.

We could stop the battle for your curiosity and send in some census counters.

For sure, there is probably some exaggeration for effect. That is human nature to say things are bigger. But also, not everyone wants to be seen, nor filmed. Others have more important things to do and others will also simply not be in the room as well.  

[Fanta]

13 hours ago, Marble-eye said:

If somebody broke into my house and murdered my family are you seriously saying I should listen to what he can offer me and if I refuse it becomes my fault. 

It totally defies all logic, how can some people be so ........ (Fill in your own word).

To follow your analogy, if your neighbor was given a choice of either certain death or handing over the wallet what would you suggest he do? Anyone with a clear head would urge him to hand over the wallet. That is what a negotiated peace offers - live to fight another day.

[Smithydog]

18 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

I was there a total of 4 years, and I can count on one hand the times we were blocked in our daily patrols in the Donbass... it usually came down to, roadways being impassible due to the weapons that were present. I left before the Russian invasion... so cannot comment on that. It seems the OSCE held on with a skeleton crew for as long as they could. 

Then you should read the reports and inform yourself of the reported facts from your colleagues. All this is before the current war, dating back to its deployment in 2014.

Like those over the years that were taken into custody, the number of times monitoring equipment was subject to interference, the ceasefire breaches and use of non-permitted armoury.

Both sides did it, as was reported, but clearly the rebels and their reported "unbadged" militarily trained colleagues had far more recorded occurrences.

[Marble-eye]

2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

To follow your analogy, if your neighbor was given a choice of either certain death or handing over the wallet what would you suggest he do? Anyone with a clear head  person would urge him to hand over the wallet. That is what a negotiated peace offers - live to fight another day.

And anyone who knows how much the Russians lie would say, 'it matters not one jot whether I hand over my wallet or not, knowing Russias history I am going to be killed anyway and I won' t live to fight another day. 

[Smithydog]

2 minutes ago, Fanta said:

To follow your analogy, if your neighbor was given a choice of either certain death or handing over the wallet what would you suggest he do? Anyone with a clear head  person would urge him to hand over the wallet. That is what a negotiated peace offers - live to fight another day.

To follow your analogy, if I did hand over my wallet but then if I knew the people threatening me had shown an inclination to just go ahead and kill my family, or rape my daughters after doing so, why would I do it and not now just fight like hell?

The reports circulating of Russian soldiers doing this, whilst not independently proven yet but seemingly showing up as happening, does not inspire people to believe the word of the invaders can be trusted. Especially also after the enemy has indiscriminately shelled the city from afar regardless of civilian casualties, reportedly taken people away from their homes, shelled humanitarian routes etc.

Belief and trust are powerful emotions. The Russians have not done anything to instill anything but disbelief and lack of trust.

 

[Grumpish]

10 hours ago, Tim_Melb said:

Actually according to the Geneva convention if Ukrainian soldiers or militia are firing from a civilian building then legally that building becomes a legitimate target. That's the law. Just saying... 

One of the vulnerabilities of Russian tanks, they are vulnerable to anti-tank weapons fired from tall buildings because of the lack of elevation of the main gun. A weakness discovered in Syria.

[Freeduhdumb]

10 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

Then you should read the reports and inform yourself of the reported facts from your colleagues. All this is before the current war, dating back to its deployment in 2014.

Like those over the years that were taken into custody, the number of times monitoring equipment was subject to interference, the ceasefire breaches and use of non-permitted armoury.

Both sides did it, as was reported, but clearly the rebels and their "unbadged" colleagues had far more recorded occurrences.

Now you're simply getting into the weeds of the tit for tat conflict since 2014 (OSCE reports)... There's violations of the Minsk II agreement all around. The significant bigger picture, after the Coup de tat, regime change operation by Julian Nuland ("The West/Washington") in 2014, both sides of the conflict agreed, in the subsequent Minsk Accords, to recognize the seperatist groups the LPR/DPR and that key failure of Kiev, and Washington to pressure them to do it, is the primary factor that has denied the conflict for 8 years to come to a close. 

[Fanta]

9 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

Really? if I stand up now and take a photo of my farm it will show a couple of people. But I know that there are far more around me here that are not in the picture.

A video of 100 old men, women and children would have far more impact than the few shown in that video. Let them go.

10 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

We could stop the battle for your curiosity and send in some census counters.

It is a siege, not a battle. Zelenskyy could save the census workers some work and order his commander to release the civilians as is his duty under the GC but he refuses to. He has either lost control of the commander there or what? That’s the question that no-one dares to ask or publish. The only suggestion to date has been that the Ukrainian soldiers fear for their lives. Human shields are also a crime under the GC. 

[Fanta]

3 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

To follow your analogy, if I did hand over my wallet but then if I knew the people threatening me had shown an inclination to just go ahead and kill my family, or rape my daughters after doing so, why would I do it and not now just fight like hell?

Because you are alone in your house. Alone. The cops (NATO) are the ones who co-signed on the deal, they already have the house surrounded and are just busting to break in but their bosses won’t let them. The approval to monitor and punish any breaches of the terms with maximum prejudice is a given. The hardest part of this deal is selling it to Joe Public. 

[Grumpish]

9 minutes ago, Fanta said:

A video of 100 old men, women and children would have far more impact than the few shown in that video. Let them go.

It is a siege, not a battle. Zelenskyy could save the census workers some work and order his commander to release the civilians as is his duty under the GC but he refuses to. He has either lost control of the commander there or what? That’s the question that no-one dares to ask or publish. The only suggestion to date has been that the Ukrainian soldiers fear for their lives. Human shields are also a crime under the GC. 

So Stalin should have just handed Stalingrad over to Germany and negotiated a peace treaty?

[Smithydog]

34 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

Now you're simply getting into the weeds of the tit for tat conflict since 2014 (OSCE reports)... There's violations of the Minsk II agreement all around. The significant bigger picture, after the Coup de tat, regime change operation by Julian Nuland ("The West/Washington") in 2014, both sides of the conflict agreed, in the subsequent Minsk Accords, to recognize the seperatist groups the LPR/DPR and that key failure of Kiev, and Washington to pressure them to do it, is IMO, the most important fact that has denied the conflict for 8 years to come to a close. 

You forgot one party to that agreement. Russia.

The failure of the SMM in Ukraine is not the fault of the people working in it. They did their job and reported the facts they observed. The reason is that they had no power to enforce, something that Russia would not allow. Let us not forget that the separatists illegally took over government buildings, declared matters outside the Ukrainian constitution, all following the removal of their corrupt friend the President of Ukraine (and former Governor of the same region) by the people and the government of Ukraine.

They were in no position to do so until Russia supported the Crimea and it is no coincidence that the same people are involved in both areas as clearly were the Russians. Otherwise, how could a small separatist group fight and hold back the mass of a nation's army.

Let there be no delusions here whatsoever. If you look over the history objectively from the stories of both sides and analysis the facts there is only one clear determining thing in my opinion behind all of this. That is President Putin and Russia. Without him and Russia, none of this would have happened so far. There are simply seem to be too many concurring statements in both arguments that highlight this.

https://community.apan.org/cfs-file/__key/docpreview-s/00-00-02-77-34/2017_2D00_06_2D00_01-Russia_2700_s-Man-in-New-Type-War-_2D00_-Igor-Girkin-_2800_Finch_2900_.pdf

 

 

[Fanta]

14 minutes ago, Grumpish said:

So Stalin should have just handed Stalingrad over to Germany and negotiated a peace treaty?

Do the maths of Russian vs Ukraine populations, their relative Armed Forces, look at a time lapsed map showing Russian advances and ask yourself if a negotiated peace is such a bad idea. A successful negotiated peace would mean the war is over but the battle has just begun. Ukraine could end up much stronger post war than pre war, further empowered and internationally supported to resist future Russian aggression and that cannot be a bad thing. Fighting to the death means an unconditional surrender and that is far less palatable than a negotiated peace.

[Smithydog]

25 minutes ago, Fanta said:

Because you are alone in your house. Alone. The cops (NATO) are the ones who co-signed on the deal, they already have the house surrounded and are just busting to break in but their bosses won’t let them. The approval to monitor and punish any breaches of the terms with maximum prejudice is a given. The hardest part of this deal is selling it to Joe Public. 

There we are . Now it is NATOs fault. In your imaginary and fact less scenario, I assume they also have a magical hotline into the forces from which the sounds of their voices can command people not part of NATO to do their bidding. Or are they doing it by video, with their eyes lighting up to hypnotise them?

Let's bring this back to a sense of reality.

NATO didn't invade. Russia did. If they didn't there wouldn't be a need for them to protect themselves let alone have this discussion.

It is actually quite tiresome that people keep blaming NATO, the US, the UK, the Neo-Nazis etc. Only one man is to blame and he is the President of the invading country. Russia.

[Fanta]

26 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

There we are . Now it is NATOs fault.

I neither said or implied any such thing. You have confused me with others? I mentioned NATO as being the guarantor against Russia reneging on a negotiated peace deal. That is it. I have stated before that the politics and economics behind this war are beyond my knowledge level and I am just not interested in them.

[Freeduhdumb]

48 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

You forgot one party to that agreement. Russia.

The failure of the SMM in Ukraine is not the fault of the people working in it. They did their job and reported the facts they observed. The reason is that they had no power to enforce, something that Russia would not allow. Let us not forget that the separatists illegally took over government buildings, declared matters outside the Ukrainian constitution, all following the removal of their corrupt friend the President of Ukraine (and former Governor of the same region) by the people and the government of Ukraine.

They were in no position to do so until Russia supported the Crimea and it is no coincidence that the same people are involved in both areas as clearly were the Russians. Otherwise, how could a small separatist group fight and hold back the mass of a nation's army.

Let there be no delusions here whatsoever. If you look over the history objectively from the stories of both sides and analysis the facts there is only one clear determining thing in my opinion behind all of this. That is President Putin and Russia. Without him and Russia, none of this would have happened so far. There are simply seem to be too many concurring statements in both arguments that highlight this.

https://community.apan.org/cfs-file/__key/docpreview-s/00-00-02-77-34/2017_2D00_06_2D00_01-Russia_2700_s-Man-in-New-Type-War-_2D00_-Igor-Girkin-_2800_Finch_2900_.pdf

This is simply a convoluted way of dismissing the impetus for the current war, the unseating of the democratically elected leader Yanukovich in 2014. When you people fail to recognize that important fact, or attempt to obfuscate it or marginalize it, I will spend no more time corresponding with you... therefore, your reply, I will give to you as the last word, I will be bowing out gracefully to this discussion. You have the last word sir.

[EdwardV]

40 minutes ago, Fanta said:

successful negotiated peace would mean the war is over but the battle has just begun. Ukraine could end up much stronger post war than pre war,

Except Putin has already said negotiations are over. He won’t negotiate again until he has won. There is no guarantee the west will continue to supply Ukraine with huge amounts of modern weapons for free after a ceasefire, or that Russia will even allow it in a deal. However it’s pretty well assured Ukraine  will be attack again as the Russian objective still needs to be taken.
 

Best bleed out Russia now and make peace on Ukraine terms. Only then will their safety be assured. 

[Rookiescot]

8 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

This is simply a convoluted way of dismissing the impetus for the current war, the unseating of the democratically elected leader Yanukovich in 2014. When you people fail to recognize that important fact, or attempt to obfuscate it, I will spend no more time corresponding with you... therefore, your reply, I will give to you as the last word, I will be bowing out gracefully to this discussion. You have the last word sir.

You appear to have a romanticized vision as to why Yanukovich was removed. He was ousted not by NATO or the EU or the USA. He was deposed by Ukrainians.

Revolution of Dignity - Wikipedia

You will see in that link he was defying a vote in the Ukrainian parliament to join a free trade agreement with the EU and indeed decided instead to join a trade pact with Russia. 

People started to protest this undemocratic move. Yanukovich unleashed his thugs on them and hundreds died.

Tell me, where is Yanukovich now?

[Freeduhdumb]

17 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Except Putin has already said negotiations are over. He won’t negotiate again until he has won. There is no guarantee the west will continue to supply Ukraine with huge amounts of modern weapons for free after a ceasefire, or that Russia will even allow it in a deal. However it’s pretty well assured Ukraine  will be attack again as the Russian objective still needs to be taken.
 

Best bleed out Russia now and make peace on Ukraine terms. Only then will their safety be assured. 

Zelensky could have ended the invasion right from the start...

The fact is there was a proposal to end the invasion... all Zelensky had to do was to renounce its NATO aspirations and declare neutrality. At that time, right before the invastion, NATO had already signaled to Zelensky that Ukraine was not slated to be admitted into NATO. The question becomes, if Zelensky knew he wasn't going to be admitted to NATO, then why wouldn't he simply agree to renounce NATO aspirations he knew he wasn't going to be able to achieve?

At the time, Zelensky rejected the proposal saying in effect, Russian President Vladimir Putin could not be trusted to uphold the agreement. Under Berlin’s plan, Putin and American President Joe Biden would sign the deal and jointly guarantee Ukraine’s security. It appears to me that the deal would have had the backing and weight and force of the U.S. and if Putin was to renege on the deal, then the U.S. would have have its full justification to engage fully, instead of a strategy of a now clear protracted war. 

The Wall Street Journal, which initially reported the proposal, said that Zelensky rejecting the offer "left German officials worried that the chances of peace were fading."

The day after the meeting, French President Emmanual Marcon appealed to Biden in a call between world leaders to make another push for diplomacy. Macron... "I think the last person who could still do something is you, Joe. Are you ready to meet Putin?" Macron said to Biden. However, Washington appeared uninterested in a push for diplomacy. Why is that? What are the ulterior motives we are not aware of?

https://archive.ph/ASXBs

 

[Freeduhdumb]

14 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

You appear to have a romanticized vision as to why Yanukovich was removed. He was ousted not by NATO or the EU or the USA. He was deposed by Ukrainians.

Revolution of Dignity - Wikipedia

You will see in that link he was defying a vote in the Ukrainian parliament to join a free trade agreement with the EU and indeed decided instead to join a trade pact with Russia. 

People started to protest this undemocratic move. Yanukovich unleashed his thugs on them and hundreds died.

Tell me, where is Yanukovich now?

So you're going to try and tell me that Victoria Nuland's U.S. State Department was not intricately involved in the removal of Yanukovich?

[Fanta]

14 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Except Putin has already said negotiations are over.

Best bleed out Russia now and make peace on Ukraine terms. Only then will their safety be assured. 

No he didn’t. Putin said a stalemate or a dead end depending on who is writing the article. We aren’t privy to the terms of the peace talks so we don’t know what the proposed terms are. For sure Russia will keep their invasion going. I’m surprised they haven’t started bombing the heck out of Kyiv yet only allegedly targeting factories Bleeding Russia out on Ukraine soil is a bad deal for Ukraine if you also believe that the West could abandon Ukraine after the war.  It is also quite optimistic of an eventual Ukraine victory and subsequent Russian retreat behind it’s own borders. I just don’t see that happening. And the weapons won’t be free for much longer if talks about a Lend Lease type deal prove true. 

[Smithydog]

36 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

This is simply a convoluted way of dismissing the impetus for the current war, the unseating of the democratically elected leader Yanukovich in 2014. When you people fail to recognize that important fact, or attempt to obfuscate it or marginalize it, I will spend no more time corresponding with you... therefore, your reply, I will give to you as the last word, I will be bowing out gracefully to this discussion. You have the last word sir.

Thank you for the last word and I will use it to highlight the falseness of your preferred position.

The unseating of the democratically elected Leader followed his last minute scrapping of the desires of the Ukrainian majority to align with Europe, coincidentally immediately after he paid a visit to his pal Putin.

What you assume is incorrect. What you also fail to recognise is that he chose to leave the country and leave his duties behind, there by triggering a vote against his continuance as President by the elected representatives of the Ukrainian Government. If he was so sure of the righteousness of his position, why didn't he stay and defend himself. Perhaps because of the impending criminal charges for all of the corruption he and his associates did as evidenced by what was found at the Presidential mansion post his hasty departure.

So much has come to light as his own papers revealed and have been examined.

https://www.occrp.org/en/yanukovychleaks-national-project/

You claim a lot about freedom but seem hesitant to acknowledge the freedom of people to voice and chose who they want as Leader and defend themselves against illegal invasions, arrogant corruption, death and destruction. Why do you support such an evidenced corrupt former Leader?

You should change your user name to remove the word free as it clearly doesn't align with any of your opinions.

 

[Freeduhdumb]

2 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

Thank you for the word. The unseating of the democratically elected Leader followed his last minute scrapping of the desires of the Ukrainian majority to align with Europe, coincidentally immediately after he paid a visit to his pal Putin.

What you assume is incorrect. What you also fail to recognise is that he chose to leave the country and leave his duties behind, there by triggering a vote against his continuance as President by the elected representatives of the Ukrainian Government. If he was so sure of the righteousness of his position, why didn't he stay and defend himself. Perhaps because of the impending criminal charges for all of the corruption he and his associates did as evidenced by what was found at the Presidential mansion post his hasty departure.

So much has come to light as his own papers revealed and have been examined.

https://www.occrp.org/en/yanukovychleaks-national-project/

You claim a lot about freedom but seem hesitant to acknowledge the freedom of people to voice and chose who they want as Leader and defend themselves against illegal invasions, arrogant corruption, death and destruction.

You should change your user name to remove the word free as it clearly doesn't align with any of your opinions.

You're not going to be able to get out of the fact that the United States engineered a coup in Ukraine in 2014. And is in fact what set the conflict in motion... 

[EdwardV]

12 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

The fact is there was a proposal to end the invasion... all Zelensky had to do was to renounce its NATO aspirations and declare neutrality.

No that’s not corrects. Russia demanded Ukraine give up its rights to Donbas and sweeping changes to NATO security guarantees to its eastern members as part of a deal. It was pretty clear Putin had no intention to cutting any deal unless he got everything. In other words full appeasement. 

[Smithydog]

10 minutes ago, Freeduhdumb said:

So you're going to try and tell me that Victoria Nuland's U.S. State Department was not intricately involved in the removal of Yanukovich?

Unknown. If you provide some actual evidence the department was then perhaps we all could understand. But such doesn't seem to exist except in the minds of debunked and disgraced conspiracy theorists like your disbarred lawyer mate.