News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[Noble_Design]

https://news.usni.org/2022/04/27/trained-russian-navy-dolphins-are-protecting-black-sea-naval-base-satellite-photos-show

Russian's deploying dolphins to protect ships.

I find them too cute to be doing these sort of war stuffs.

 

[Guest1]

1 hour ago, Noble_Design said:

https://news.usni.org/2022/04/27/trained-russian-navy-dolphins-are-protecting-black-sea-naval-base-satellite-photos-show

Russian's deploying dolphins to protect ships.

I find them too cute to be doing these sort of war stuffs.

And who, do you think, invented that?

'Everyone is familiar with security patrol dogs, and how some service dogs use their keen sense of smell to detect explosives on land. Since 1959, the U.S. Navy has trained dolphins and sea lions as teammates for our Sailors and Marines to help guard against similar threats underwater. The Navy’s Marine Mammal Program has been homeported on Point Loma since the 1960’s."

https://www.niwcpacific.navy.mil/marine-mammal-program/#:~:text=Since 1959%2C the U.S. Navy,Point Loma since the 1960's.

 

 

[Santa]

Good old Abrams

https://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2074/M-1A1-destroyed.jpg

[vlad]

The School bully from Moscow has now threatened that any country intervening in the Ukraine war will face a "lightning fast " response he claimed, and as he put it we have all the tools no one can boast of and we will use them if necessary he said. MM that I presume means he will use ballistic missiles and nuclear arms. All wind and piss as usual. If he decides to use one Moscow will be turned to Ash and everyone in it. He may well take a country out but that won't happen because his Generals won't issue the order and they will turn on him. As an afterthought, I wonder where HMS Vanguard is?.

[Rookiescot]

50 minutes ago, Santa said:

Good old Abrams

https://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2074/M-1A1-destroyed.jpg

Did you read the comments in the link you provided?

 

IDE blows off track and damages the main shaft
Crew abandons the tank
Recovery is not worthy to they set up a thermite charge on the tank to destroy critical components and cook off the ammo
Tank is left charred

Most if not all images of ****** up Abrams where they are left this way is because the crew choose to destroy the thank rather than leave it sitting there.

 

Also you will note that the turret is STILL in place.

 

[Fanta]

36 minutes ago, vlad said:

The School bully from Moscow has now threatened that any country intervening in the Ukraine war will face a "lightning fast " response he claimed, and as he put it we have all the tools no one can boast of and we will use them if necessary he said. MM that I presume means he will use ballistic missiles and nuclear arms. All wind and piss as usual. If he decides to use one Moscow will be turned to Ash and everyone in it. He may well take a country out but that won't happen because his Generals won't issue the order and they will turn on him. As an afterthought, I wonder where HMS Vanguard is?.

Russia has a weapon that is lightning fast and no-one relevant to this war can boast of - hypersonic missiles. They can deliver both nuclear and conventional payloads. Russia has already used at least one in Ukraine to destroy what they claim was an underground weapons store. MSM said it was a farm. A farm…. 
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/20/russia-says-it-used-hypersonic-missiles-in-ukraine-for-second-day
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avangard_(hypersonic_glide_vehicle)

[oldschooler]

19 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

fair. but Russia has not expanded in the last 20 years, unlike NATO.

NATO “ expands” because all free European nations near Russia are naturally banding together against aggressive unfree Russia.

Russia can only “ expand” by treaty with or invasion of, unfree states. That was completed over 20 years ago.

[Smithydog]

This story from CNN discusses the challenges the Russians have with their tank design and BMD compared to western designs. Looks like they didn't pay attention to the battles where they have been used in the past.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/27/europe/russia-tanks-blown-turrets-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

As modern weaponry continues to evolve, it emphasises why the concentration by some on remotely operated vehicles. Against the modern missiles, anti tank stuff etc, they seem more like becoming cannon fodder in their current mode than anything in the past. 

The soldier with the throwaway anti-tank missile on his or her shoulder is fast becoming the most valuable asset. As Ukraine is getting heaps of those, and easy to move around to attack, President Zelensky and his military advisers probably see no point in laying down any weapons just yet.

[Rookiescot]

3 minutes ago, Smithydog said:

This story from CNN discusses the challenges the Russians have with their tank design and BMD compared to western designs. Looks like they didn't pay attention to the battles where they have been used in the past.

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/27/europe/russia-tanks-blown-turrets-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

As modern weaponry continues to evolve, it emphasises why the concentration by some in remote vehicles. Against the modern missiles, anti tank stuff etc, they seem more like becoming fodder in their current mode than anything past. 

The soldier with the throwaway anti-tank missile on his or her shoulder is fast becoming the most valuable asset. As Ukraine is getting heaps of those, and easy to move around to attack, President Zelensky and his military advisers probably see no point in laying down any weapons just yet.

We used to have Milan anti tank missiles. Each missile was about 8000 pounds each. I was astonished at that. It was essentially the same cost as throwing an average familly car at a multimillion pound tank. Milan was line of sight and wire guided so you had to try and hit vulnerable points like the sides or the back. Hitting the front only annoys it.

These new "disposable" missiles are nothing short of a revelation. You can hit a main battle tank from any angle using top down attack or line of sight. And they are self guiding. You dont have to keep the crosshairs on the target till it hits.

Couple that with the flawed design of T72's and T80's and no wonder the Ukrainians are having happy days.

Then there are the suicide drones. Too small to take out an MBT but support vehicles and communications is no problem. And without those the MBT is going to fail anyway. 

I seriously believe the Russians are in far more trouble than they admit. So far the narrative has been about Russian threats and perceived advances but I suspect that is going to change very soon. Its a hangover from everyone believing the Russian bear was mighty. Turns out its not so much.

I think we will soon start to see serious reversals of the Russia advances. It will start slow but once it gains momentum it can become a rout. 

Czar Putin at that point will become desperate. His own existence will be under threat so he may try to use chemical weapons.

Such a shame too. He spent all that time and other peoples money to build himself a nice palace on the coast and he might not live to see it finished.  

[Fanta]

33 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Couple that with the flawed design of T72's and T80's and no wonder the Ukrainians are having happy days

And it could explain why Russian artillery is leveling villages before the tanks & ground troops go anywhere near them. Otherwise it seems pointless to waste all that ammo on hammering those places. The MOAWs have a 20-800 meter range and the Javelins about 1.2 kilometers. Putin would have been better off waiting  until the T-14s tanks started rolling off the production line in say 10 years….. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-14_Armata

 

[EdwardV]

18 minutes ago, Fanta said:

And it could explain why Russian artillery is leveling villages before the tanks & ground troops go anywhere near them. Otherwise it seems pointless to waste all that ammo on hammering those places. The MOAWs have a 20-800 meter range and the Javelins about 1.2 kilometers. Putin would have been better off waiting  until the T-14s tanks started rolling off the production line in say 10 years….. 

Exactly. Keep in mind if Russia destroys all the buildings now, it takes away cover for the inevitable counter insurgency campaign that follows. Two birds, one stone. 
 

Poor T-14. Can’t seem to get out of design, can’t seem to find any customers. That said, looks amazing on paper. I’ve read part of the problem is the lack of foreign customers. Same with the Su-35, Russia needs foreign sales to drive down the production costs, or basically they can’t afford to buy the tanks and planes themselves. The US has a similar problem to a lesser degree. You saw it with the F-35. The huge foreign sales have drastically reduced the sale price. It’s also probably the reason the Air Force didn’t buy as nearly as many F-22s or even B-2s as originally planned. In those cases there were no foreign sales to drive down the cost and the US ended up having to cut production because they couldn’t afford a large fleet. 

[Fester]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

And it could explain why Russian artillery is leveling villages before the tanks & ground troops go anywhere near them. Otherwise it seems pointless to waste all that ammo on hammering those places. The MOAWs have a 20-800 meter range and the Javelins about 1.2 kilometers. Putin would have been better off waiting  until the T-14s tanks started rolling off the production line in say 10 years….. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-14_Armata

Usual Orc tactics. Of course it's a waste...indiscriminate...with high collateral damage.

[vlad]

Simple answer Fester the Russian forces have taken heavy losses so far without getting into a city or large town where they know they will be picked off. They're not capable of taking anyone on after what we saw what the Taliban did to them when they got their arses kicked in Afghan let alone taking on the Ukrainian forces who are well supplied with the most up-to-date weapons, not Ak 47s. Putin knows this so he is using the old We have nukes and were not afraid to use them bring it on vlad we will reduce you to cinders.

[EdwardV]

7 hours ago, Fanta said:

Russia has a weapon that is lightning fast and no-one relevant to this war can boast of - hypersonic missiles. They can deliver both nuclear and conventional payloads. Russia has already used at least one in Ukraine to destroy what they claim was an underground weapons store. MSM said it was a farm. A farm…. 

You know what they say about hypersonic weapons: unless you put a nuke on top of it, it's nothing more than an expensive way to blow things up. 

Besides the fact Putin has been making similar threats since before the war, boy who cried wolf stuff. It's hard to take them serious unless you think he is suicidal. The day he threatened a lightning fast response, the UK foreign secretary said the West must make sure Russia is forced out of all of Ukraine. That night the German Parliament voted by a huge margin to approve the supply of heavy weapons to Ukraine. It was also the day before US President Biden (today) is set to announce a new and massive military aid package to Ukraine. Clearly whatever Putin thinks he's doing by threatening the west, it's having the opposite reaction. 

The hypersonic weapon Russia has been using is called the Kinzhal, an airborne version of the land based Iskander short range ballistic missile. It's nothing new. Unlike the hypersonic glide weapon they are working on (debatable if it's operation yet or not) which is new. Ballistic missiles are all hypersonic weapons since they travel faster than Mach5. However they are not new as they all trace their lineage back to the German V-2 of WWII (which itself was a hypersonic weapon too). 

[KRLMRX]

13 hours ago, EdwardV said:

I’m pretty sure Ukraine would take exception to that statement. 
 

Unfortunately for the Ukrainians, NATO does not ask their opinion.  Otherwise, there would have been a referendum on joining the EU and NATO before Ukrainian officials decide that this is the goal.

[KRLMRX]

13 hours ago, Smithydog said:

I thought Russia invaded Ukraine, a non-NATO Country. Where are NATO troops "on the ground" in Ukraine? Where is your evidence of direct NATO involvement. It seems even President Putin does not consider NATO involved as his warning reported just yesterday infers: ‘Lightning-quick’ response if NATO intervenes in Ukraine: Putin. No mention of "because they ae involved" only "if".

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/27/lighting-quick-retaliation-if-nato-intervenes-in-ukraine-putin

CSTO has not doubled in size as even some old Soviet countries see the dangers in being involved with Russia. They formed the GUAM organisation to stay away. Perhaps they learnt the hard way as to what involvement with Russia only gets you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUAM_Organization_for_Democracy_and_Economic_Development

Are they now a threat too since they are in a different club?

Call it what you may, but Russia (a country) invaded Ukraine (another country). Not NATO and nor has NATO invaded Ukraine in this war or even Russia.

strange.

NATO does not participate, but supports one of the parties https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_194319.htm

Apparently, NATO has such a hobby, or art, they just see the world that way.

which textbook says that participation in a war is necessarily a ground operation?

[EdwardV]

8 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

NATO does not participate, but supports one of the parties

Yes that's true.

Just is it's true other countries who are not part of NATO are supporting one of the parties. 

[EdwardV]

24 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

Unfortunately for the Ukrainians, NATO does not ask their opinion.  Otherwise, there would have been a referendum on joining the EU and NATO before Ukrainian officials decide that this is the goal.

Besides that has nothing to do with what I wrote. Your statement seems to imply there is a connection between Ukraine wanting to join NATO and Russia invading them. Seems a stretch at best. Especially since Russia knew Ukraine didn't qualify for membership and it was because of Russia.  

[KRLMRX]

2 hours ago, vlad said:

Simple answer Fester the Russian forces have taken heavy losses so far without getting into a city or large town where they know they will be picked off. They're not capable of taking anyone on after what we saw what the Taliban did to them when they got their arses kicked in Afghan let alone taking on the Ukrainian forces who are well supplied with the most up-to-date weapons, not Ak 47s. Putin knows this so he is using the old We have nukes and were not afraid to use them bring it on vlad we will reduce you to cinders.

the Taliban, who appeared in the 90s, a few years after the Soviets left Afghanistan, is probably why they kicked the Russian ass.  

But what is strange is that the US and not the Russian Army hurriedly fled from the Taliban last year for some reason.  

I get it, it's just Art, you see it that way too.

[KRLMRX]

1 hour ago, EdwardV said:

You know what they say about hypersonic weapons: unless you put a nuke on top of it, it's nothing more than an expensive way to blow things up. 

Besides the fact Putin has been making similar threats since before the war, boy who cried wolf stuff. It's hard to take them serious unless you think he is suicidal. The day he threatened a lightning fast response, the UK foreign secretary said the West must make sure Russia is forced out of all of Ukraine. That night the German Parliament voted by a huge margin to approve the supply of heavy weapons to Ukraine. It was also the day before US President Biden (today) is set to announce a new and massive military aid package to Ukraine. Clearly whatever Putin thinks he's doing by threatening the west, it's having the opposite reaction. 

The hypersonic weapon Russia has been using is called the Kinzhal, an airborne version of the land based Iskander short range ballistic missile. It's nothing new. Unlike the hypersonic glide weapon they are working on (debatable if it's operation yet or not) which is new. Ballistic missiles are all hypersonic weapons since they travel faster than Mach5. However they are not new as they all trace their lineage back to the German V-2 of WWII (which itself was a hypersonic weapon too). 

judging by the reports of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, Kalibr missiles are used almost daily, they have conventional and supersonic versions

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M-54_Kalibr

such videos from residents of Ukraine can also be seen daily

 

 

 

[KRLMRX]

34 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Yes that's true.

Just is it's true other countries who are not part of NATO are supporting one of the parties. 

no, that was irony.

NATO, of course, is participating in this war on the side of Ukraine.

Intelligence, the supply of weapons, the use of NATO infrastructure - this is participation.

Other non-NATO countries also participate, but their contribution is minimal compared to NATO countries

[KRLMRX]

34 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Besides that has nothing to do with what I wrote. Your statement seems to imply there is a connection between Ukraine wanting to join NATO and Russia invading them. Seems a stretch at best. Especially since Russia knew Ukraine didn't qualify for membership and it was because of Russia.  

Initially, the conversation was that Putin justified the invasion, including the expansion of NATO and the desire to include Ukraine in it.  

Therefore, of course, for him this connection is obvious.

NATO and Ukrainian officials have been saying for the last 8 years that this will definitely happen someday.

[EdwardV]

8 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

no, that was irony.

NATO, of course, is participating in this war on the side of Ukraine.

So was mine. 

I think the term you are looking for is "support" not participate. 

[EdwardV]

10 minutes ago, KRLMRX said:

NATO and Ukrainian officials have been saying for the last 8 years that this will definitely happen someday.

And yet Putin knew by NATO by-laws it wasn't possible because he occupied Crimea. Yet he still invaded Ukraine. It's part of the reason I've always said, this war is about way more than just Ukraine. 

[KRLMRX]

24 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

And yet Putin knew by NATO by-laws it wasn't possible because he occupied Crimea. Yet he still invaded Ukraine. It's part of the reason I've always said, this war is about way more than just Ukraine. 

Over the past 2 months, the Russian Ministry of Defense has repeatedly reported that documents confirming the preparation of Ukraine's attack on the Donbass were found on the captured objects of the Ukrainian army. Apparently, therefore, in his address before the start of the operation, Putin said that "Russia was left no choice." Perhaps there was evidence of Ukraine's desire to try to resolve the issues of Donbass and Crimea by military means. Perhaps this is a lie. We'll see in the future. Or we won't see.