News Forum - Ukraine’s Zelensky defies Russia’s ultimatum to lay down weapons

[Fester]

1 hour ago, Benroon said:

I should apologise, I previously surmised you were upwards of 83 - reading that I need to recalibrate to possibly 10 ! So Maths - originated in Africa (black Egyptians) , earliest forms of art, step forward Africa, the first language system, guess what Africa, oh you mention medicine , hmmm I'm afraid those pesky black egyptians beat us to it, and without the Congolese you wouldn't have a mobile phone given they discovered and utilised Cobalt first, but I don't really want to have a 'xenophobic off' with you Alf as people like you can't be told.

Oh apart from a muslim who in 936 created a medicinal encyclopedia that the EUROPEANS used for 500 years after he died (and is credited for creating how to stitch humans up even today), the crankshaft, a pivotal mechanical invention in the modern world, errrr a muslim invented that, hang on also the earliest camera which then lead to how doctors performed surgery on eyes even today, another muslim. Small cheese but they invented the windmill too bringing prosperity to Europe! Did you know the NHS the 'free at the point of use' principle was first launched by the muslims ?

However climate is what gives the west a head start nothing else. There is no superior brain formation of anyone living in the west. Unless of course you think someone growing up in Somalia starts with an equal chance as someone born in Cambridge ?

Sorry I couldn't spot the answer to the question as to whether a 'lesser culture' doctor is acceptable to save your life when you've been rushed into A&E ? Or would you refuse his assistance on principle ? The great thing about people like you, coupled with the more enlightening attitude of the young more tolerant generally less xenophobic better educated people, is people like you will be gone within a couple of generations and the world will be a far better more tolerant place. Though you will be amongst friends here no doubt, xenophobes love a forum to anonymously relay their white supremacist bile.

You must be utterly aghast that the earliest forms of human were found in Africa ? (Broken Hill Skull) ie I'm afraid you're one of them ! Quick get a bath!

You have no idea how much better that has made me feel !

Glad you're so much better. Now read the post again and think about the meaning of the word modern. 

[Fester]

56 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

This post is asinine and sophomoric. While we can ignore your passive aggressive attitude your incongruity is poignant. 

Nice one. I say, would you be so good as to pass those plums, please? I feel a post coming on.

[Benroon]

13 minutes ago, Fester said:

Glad you're so much better. Now read the post again and think about the meaning of the word modern. 

Oh sorry I get it - when xenophobic you can pick and choose ages to suit cutting out inconveniences right ? So if 'modern' is built on previous inventions they should take full credit ? You've probably still got time to go back and edit your post if you're quick. Your defence of a xenophobe is pitiful at best.

I mean without Maths I'm wondering where 'modern' man would be 

 

[Rookiescot]

5 minutes ago, Fester said:

Nice one. I say, would you be so good as to pass those plums, please? I feel a post coming on.

Swallowed a thesaurus as a kid.

[Rookiescot]

22 minutes ago, Fester said:

Glad you're so much better. Now read the post again and think about the meaning of the word modern. 

 

6 minutes ago, Benroon said:

Oh sorry I get it - when xenophobic you can pick and choose ages to suit cutting out inconveniences right ? So if 'modern' is built on previous inventions they should take full credit ? You've probably still got time to go back and edit your post if you're quick. Your defence of a xenophobe is pitiful at best.

I mean without Maths I'm wondering where 'modern' man would be 

Guys come on. We can argue who invented what when in other threads (my money is on Scotland because we invented everything worth having) but not here please.

[Benroon]

8 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Guys come on. We can argue who invented what when in other threads (my money is on Scotland because we invented everything worth having) but not here please.

Errrr but not the telephone, a flagrant intellectual property theft - but yes point taken

[Benroon]

But back on post I see good ol Ursula from the EU continue to undermine Bojo's photo opportunities with actual action. Boris will be frothing his Churchillian attempt at statesmanship is under threat.

Sadly the Saudi barbarians are waiting for the windfall to come their way.

[NorskTiger]

What is going to give? NATO or Russia?  At this point the only thing is clear that NEITHER will give in at this time. 

   NATO now shipping more stand-off weapons, will lead to a massive increase in destruction of cities and civillians on both sides. Stand-off weapons can only be answered with stand-off wepaons when there is no interest in mass charges with high casualty rates. 

        

    The bigger picture is that a "risk" of a Nuclear war is not calculateable. The globalist bankers are pushing the "global warming" dogma with the argument that the consequences of ignoring it can entail the globel heating up. However, nobody seem to take the same view upon any nuclear conflict. 

    A nuclear war will be the end of the Human experiment. The psychopathic elite leaders may think it an acceptable outcome, but to the rest, it will be a scenario of misery unless anything we have ever experienced. 

  However, NATO seems to accept a "risk" of escalated conflict, because their strategic goal og crushing Russia is worth taking it. Their only answer to this view is to demonize anyone in opposition of such madness; to demonize anyone as "agents" or "sock puppets". 

    Here in North Norway there are more and more people who are starting to look at this as utter madness. The politicians are more and more avoiding a deeper talk about the conflict and even throwing the living standards of our people under the bus. As always, the anglo-americans have no other humanity than the desire to start a war far away from their own home. 

 

    Russias invasion of Ukraine is wrong, illegitimate and harmful to world stability. It is as wrong as the invasion of another country with an equivalent amount of people, where the pretext was of similar characther. 

   The invasion of Iraq in 2003 was done with overwhelming force and powr, but very little coverage of human suffering. The most notorious war crime there, murder of several journalists from the air by helicopter pilot slaughing over the entire ordeal only lead to the grossest persecution of a man in modern times. 

       At this time, does Zelensky have ANY ability to influence the larger picture? History would suggest a clear no. The military might is carried by the larger political will. Ukraine of today has no military resources left besides what they get sent from NATO. It is very unlikely that Zelensky could even send out a peace feeler that was not pre-screened by the larger Westenr apparatus and his existence would be at stake if he were to consider such a thing with a clear goal of saving lives.

     All the Western warmongers can do is demonize Russia and simpy ignore the reality that to Russia, this is existential. At the same time, they do not admit their own economic existential struggle that has led them this far. 

 

    The question one should ask now is, WHEN will the West realize that Russia does not issue rhetorical red lines? Does the geniuses in the West really still believe Kremlin is not willing to back up their statements? They are being foolish to the zillionth degree. 

   Russia Again Warns Any NATO Vehicle Entering Ukraine With Weapons Will Be Destroyed | ZeroHedge

    

[oldschooler]

2 hours ago, Benroon said:

I should apologise, I previously surmised you were upwards of 83 - reading that I need to recalibrate to possibly 10 ! So Maths - originated in Africa (black Egyptians) , earliest forms of art, step forward Africa, the first language system, guess what Africa, oh you mention medicine , hmmm I'm afraid those pesky black egyptians beat us to it, and without the Congolese you wouldn't have a mobile phone given they discovered and utilised Cobalt first, but I don't really want to have a 'xenophobic off' with you Alf as people like you can't be told.

Oh apart from a muslim who in 936 created a medicinal encyclopedia that the EUROPEANS used for 500 years after he died (and is credited for creating how to stitch humans up even today), the crankshaft, a pivotal mechanical invention in the modern world, errrr a muslim invented that, hang on also the earliest camera which then lead to how doctors performed surgery on eyes even today, another muslim. Small cheese but they invented the windmill too bringing prosperity to Europe! Did you know the NHS the 'free at the point of use' principle was first launched by the muslims ?

However climate is what gives the west a head start nothing else. There is no superior brain formation of anyone living in the west. Unless of course you think someone growing up in Somalia starts with an equal chance as someone born in Cambridge ?

Sorry I couldn't spot the answer to the question as to whether a 'lesser culture' doctor is acceptable to save your life when you've been rushed into A&E ? Or would you refuse his assistance on principle ? The great thing about people like you, coupled with the more enlightening attitude of the young more tolerant generally less xenophobic better educated people, is people like you will be gone within a couple of generations and the world will be a far better more tolerant place. Though you will be amongst friends here no doubt, xenophobes love a forum to anonymously relay their white supremacist bile.

You must be utterly aghast that the earliest forms of human were found in Africa ? (Broken Hill Skull) ie I'm afraid you're one of them ! Quick get a bath!

You have no idea how much better that has made me feel !

Don’t need any lessons in Ancient History from your ill-informed self. 

Neanderthals had the first “ language system”. If you mean Writing that was first invented by the (non- African) Sumerians 

My post said MODERN Inventions which you utterly ignored with cheap deflection. I credited  the Ancient world with amazing inventions.None though anywhere near the level of modern creations like Spacecraft & Submarines

Also said I prefer to judge Individuals on merit. As many groups do not come out well when judged objectively.

MODERN Achievements (last 500 years) are clearly & overwhelmingly of exclusive WESTERN Origin. Based on prior Greek- Roman knowledge.Most other Ancient Knowledge destroyed by Arabs firing the Alexandria Library. 

Climate, Geography, Non- Conformism, Enlightenment, Skills, Curiosity & Genius all played their part in creating that special spark only in NW Europe.

Muslims (outside Spain) invented practically nothing of note for last 800 years. Only Eight Nobel Prizes.  

Ancient Egyptian DNA shows they were Caucasians from Near East. 15% their DNA examined was Black African ; that and their early conquest of advanced Black Kush / Nubia show clearly any Blacks in Egypt were Slaves Only, unlikely to invent anything. Sorry to disappoint.

Every rational informed person knows all forms of hominids originated in East Africa & that some groups advanced more than others. Irrelevant. 

Compelled Religious beliefs of inventors were also irrelevant. Everybody in Europe 500 years ago had to Catholic or in West Asia / North Africa, Muslim, or Die.

I helped build the free world you enjoy.

I see with your “Somalia” comment that you do in fact accept that some cultures are in fact superior to others. Race of any “savior” Doctor trained in WESTERN Medicine? Irrelevant. 

 

[EdwardV]

8 hours ago, Fanta said:

We don’t know what Russia and China are doing behind closed doors. China hasn’t closed their banking system to Russia, their imports from Russia have increased, their political voice is ominously quiet while their votes are clearly supportive of Russia. And why would Russia need China’s help militarily?  Russia exports weapons to China. Russia’s military exports have slowed since 2017. Decisions to invade  are not made overnight so I think Russia started stockpiling military stuff a few years ago. The US will push any message aimed at making Russia look more isolated than it already is. Claiming that Russia’s key ally is sitting by idly is just more of the same.

I think they know more than you are willing to admit. It's pretty hard to hid anything now days. China has close some of it's banking system to Russia, and imports from Russia will very soon be decreasing (lockdowns have that effect, just takes a month for the data to show). Being quite is a good thing? That's not how besties are suppose to do things. Stockpiling for years? That can't possibly be true, Putin just made the decision days before the actual invasion. Remember him telling the world he had no intention of invading Ukraine? hahaha. Of course the west is pushing a message, but that fact doesn't mean what they are saying isn't true. Contrary to what some American's want to believe, Biden isn't a friend of China. A friend wouldn't appoint Katherine Tai to the post of US Trade Representative (the person who is responsible for all trade deal for the US).  She's a trade lawyer who specialize in suing other countries and is an ethnic Taiwanese (yeah that didn't go over well in Beijing). That's the actions of someone who would love nothing better than to catch China red handed and drop secondary sanctions on them. It would help Biden with his populist and isolationist foreign and domestic policies (ironic since that was what was bemoaned about Trump).  

[EdwardV]

8 hours ago, Fanta said:

You first. Why hasn’t China condemned the invasion, agreed with sanctions against Russia, cut Russia off economically and rattled some sharpened chopsticks at them? Surely the bad karma from the West outweighs the benefits of dealing with Russia ??? 

Why would they, they actually approved of it. The Chinese looked at the invasion of Ukraine as a templet to their pending invasion of Taiwan. Little did they know it would prove the opposite of what they hoped. They certainly won't agree with sanctions since they want to be able to denounce them after attacking Taiwan. Which by the way will be so much more devastating against them than with Russia. The Chinese know they don't need to take the West's side to keep out of the crosshairs, they only need to be seen as not overtly supporting Russia.  

[EdwardV]

25 minutes ago, NorskTiger said:

However, NATO seems to accept a "risk" of escalated conflict, because their strategic goal og crushing Russia is worth taking it

You have the right conclusion, but came to it from the wrong direction. The west knows there is a risk Russia might use a nuke, but it's not for the reason you think. They understand Ukraine isn't Russia's goal, it's just a stepping stone. Russia's goal is to own part or all of the adjoining NATO countries. The entire Baltic States, and parts of Poland and Romania. They also know the Russian army is totally inept and incapable of accomplishing that endeavor. They will be crushed by NATO and rather easily. The problem is what happens next? Does the Russia army then take a humiliatingly long retreat all the way back to the Russia border giving up everything in the process including Crimea? Do you really see Putin doing that? Or do they escalate with tactical nukes? If you think Russia will use a nuke, then the Russian army has to die on the steppes of Ukraine. 

This is why the west is now sending heavy weapons, and lots of them. Watch what makes up the US $33B donation, the details will be released a few days after it's approved in congress. Keeping in mind, this is only suppose to get Ukraine through September. 

[Fester]

2 hours ago, Benroon said:

Oh sorry I get it - when xenophobic you can pick and choose ages to suit cutting out inconveniences right ? So if 'modern' is built on previous inventions they should take full credit ? You've probably still got time to go back and edit your post if you're quick. Your defence of a xenophobe is pitiful at best.

I mean without Maths I'm wondering where 'modern' man would be 

I didn't pick the word modern. I just noticed it, unlike yourself. 

[EdwardV]

For anyone who thinks Russian oil windfall is going to last for a long time: 

 

The European Union is planning to phase out imports of Russian oil to cut off financing for Moscow's war in Ukraine, but it's not stopping there. It's also proposing a ban on European ships and companies providing any service related to the shipment of Russian crude and refined products anywhere in the world — such as financing, insurance, or even technical support — according to draft legislation seen by Bloomberg. 

 

The EU accounts for almost half of all Russia's oil exports, and its proposals mean it could ditch all of that over the coming six months. However, the draft legislation shows the bloc is proposing a crackdown on any shipment of oil that originates in Russia or has been exported from there, to any country, even those outside the EU, Bloomberg reported Wednesday. "Depending on the timing of this ban, it's a potential big deal, given the current shortage of global tanker capacity and EU carriers' huge role in Russian total oil exports," Jacob Kirkegaard, a senior fellow at the Peterson Institute For International Economics, tweeted. Robin Brooks, the chief economist at IIF, tweeted a chart last week that shows Greece is by far the biggest shipper of Russian oil and oil products. He said the EU should target the global tanker fleet if it wanted to make any embargo truly effective. "Russian storage capacity is super limited, so Russia's oil wells will start flooding very quickly. So, even if you just have a one month window before tankers start back up again, it'd do a lot of damage to Putin," Brooks said in a tweeted response.

The EU is going after Russia's global oil sales by cracking down on anyone from insurers to ship owners, report says (msn.com)

That's on top of India's new demand they get a 35% discount on oil deliveries from Russia. Claims the extra heavy discount is to cover the "risk". No doubt China will follow suit. 

 India Wants Massive Discounts on Russian Oil: Report (businessinsider.com)

 

 

 

 

 

[oldschooler]

1 hour ago, EdwardV said:

You have the right conclusion, but came to it from the wrong direction. The west knows there is a risk Russia might use a nuke, but it's not for the reason you think. They understand Ukraine isn't Russia's goal, it's just a stepping stone. Russia's goal is to own part or all of the adjoining NATO countries. The entire Baltic States, and parts of Poland and Romania. They also know the Russian army is totally inept and incapable of accomplishing that endeavor. They will be crushed by NATO and rather easily. The problem is what happens next? Does the Russia army then take a humiliatingly long retreat all the way back to the Russia border giving up everything in the process including Crimea? Do you really see Putin doing that? Or do they escalate with tactical nukes? If you think Russia will use a nuke, then the Russian army has to die on the steppes of Ukraine. 

This is why the west is now sending heavy weapons, and lots of them. Watch what makes up the US $33B donation, the details will be released a few days after it's approved in congress. Keeping in mind, this is only suppose to get Ukraine through September. 

Russian Tactical Nuclear Use against Kyiv or in Donbass against Ukrainian Army is a Real Threat though. Because Russian Army hopeless. Only way to force a partitioned Ukraine ( in addition to the already Wrecked Ukraine). Ukraine cannot Respond at all and nor can NATO, militarily.

BUT Western Economic & Political Sanctions would have to then be Absolute. Zero Trade / Dollar Banking with Russia. All Diplomatic Ties Cut. All Neutral Countries told to decide  “ with us or against us” like GWOT after 9/11. Russia collapses economically within three months ? 

And then what? 2nd tactical nuke in Ukraine ? Putin cannot use nukes on NATO. Russia Obliterated.Tyrants love being Tyrants which doesn’t work if Tyrant & Nation a burnt cinder. 

 

 

 

[KRLMRX]

4 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Russian war crimes - Wikipedia

Thats pretty damning is it not?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes

much more text.  

I am sure you have already expressed your position on this matter and are ready to spend the rest of your life in prison together with Assange.

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, oldschooler said:

Russian Tactical Nuclear Use against Kyiv or in Donbass against Ukrainian Army is a Real Threat though. Because Russian Army hopeless. Only way to force a partitioned Ukraine ( in addition to the already Wrecked Ukraine). Ukraine cannot Respond at all and nor can NATO, militarily.

BUT Western Economic & Political Sanctions would have to then be Absolute. Zero Trade / Dollar Banking with Russia. All Diplomatic Ties Cut. All Neutral Countries told to decide  “ with us or against us” like GWOT after 9/11. Russia collapses economically within three months ? 

And then what? 2nd tactical nuke in Ukraine ? Putin cannot use nukes on NATO. Russia Obliterated.Tyrants love being Tyrants which doesn’t work if Tyrant & Nation a burnt cinder. 

The first question would be if the Russian military is willing to follow through? It's not a guarantee in any country, especially as an offensive strike instead of a defensive one. They know once that line is crossed, it might be suicide at worse, and standing in front of a military war crimes tribunal at best. Might be better to give Putin a 9mm headache instead.

Besides the fact Putin would have to explain to the country why Big old Russia was force to nuke a small little country. No more hiding the fact their vaunted military is inept, with the resulting loss of face. What will probably happen is every country who owns a nuclear reactor would start building a bomb. More advance countries could have a working one by the end of the year. The nuclear proliferation treaty is a voluntary agreement. You promise not to build a bomb in return for those who have them not using them. Depending on where they drop the bomb, the West would probably launch a massive strike against the Russian army logistics. Every bridge, weapons depot, rail junction and air base within the war zone (including those just inside Russia itself). Basically kill off the Russian army's ability to function. Last NATO would forward deploy into Ukraine. Set up a line running from east of Kyiv south to east of Odesa. The Ukrainian army would still function to the east of the line, just their safe zone would move much closer to the front. Of course if Russia actually is dumb enough to drop a bomb on a NATO country, all bets are off.  JMO

[Fanta]

6 hours ago, EdwardV said:

I think they know more than you are willing to admit.

I think you think I know more than I know but I don’t know ;-) Remember that I was the guy who said the US debt to China was a big deal and you educated me that it didn’t mean much at all at the end of the day. China’s imports from Russia are up, not down, plus Russia has moved further into China’s banking system, not out. That lot are as as thick as thieves and Russia has buried treasure waiting to be dug up.

What about the Russian sanctions on “unfriendly countries” ?  I had to laugh when I saw that and am waiting for the howls of outrage once the details come out.  NATO took $300+ billion from Russia, that’s a years worth of Russian energy sales, so I think that oil & gas shipments will be reduced to Europe. Again. And wheat. Ukraine seems to be largely out of the game for supplying wheat so that leaves Russia to plug the gap. 

[TedG]

I hope Ukraine pulls a 30 seconds over Moscow on May 9th. 

[Fanta]

4 hours ago, oldschooler said:

Russian Tactical Nuclear Use against Kyiv or in Donbass against Ukrainian Army is a Real Threat though. Because Russian Army hopeless. Only way to force a partitioned Ukraine ( in addition to the already Wrecked Ukraine). Ukraine cannot Respond at all and nor can NATO, militarily

You are assuming that Russia is losing. imo, a nuke is a defensive weapon or a necessary knockout blow. Russia is still far from those desperate times. Risk vs reward. Slog on in Ukraine or push the button and risk Moscow being rubble. No brainer there. 

[Rookiescot]

4 hours ago, KRLMRX said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes

much more text.  

I am sure you have already expressed your position on this matter and are ready to spend the rest of your life in prison together with Assange.

Of course its got much more text. Your link goes back to 1898.

My link only goes back to the collapse of the soviet union.

[EdwardV]

1 hour ago, Fanta said:

And wheat. Ukraine seems to be largely out of the game for supplying wheat so that leaves Russia to plug the gap. 

Yes and no. Yes it’s good for Russia, they will make more money. But the loss can’t be made up, it’s too large. Will hurt those in Africa and Central Asia the most. Might be famine. 

[Fanta]

10 hours ago, NorskTiger said:

Russia Again Warns Any NATO Vehicle Entering Ukraine With Weapons Will Be Destroyed | ZeroHedge

imo, that’s “reasonable”. NATO vehicles entering Ukraine territory to deliver weapons is arguably the same as a NATO soldier driving a German tank to the front lines and then letting a Ukrainian soldier push the fire button. The only difference is the proximity to the battle. The Russians have been targeting equipment supply routes for the last few weeks by knocking out the main bridge from Romania to Odessa and also the railway stations etc. But what about NATO spy planes flying in Ukrainian air space delivering intelligence to Ukrainian forces? Intelligence is a weapon. Could get messy…. 

[EdwardV]

53 minutes ago, Fanta said:

But what about NATO spy planes flying in Ukrainian air space delivering intelligence to Ukrainian forces? Intelligence is a weapon. Could get messy…. 

Besides the fact NATO doesn’t need to drive equipment into Ukraine, there are plenty of qualified Ukrainian truck drivers to do that. They have been getting plenty of experience these last two months. It’s also damn hard to find let alone hit a moving truck far from your front lines. Especially when you don’t own the skies. That said, why would you think NATO spy planes need to enter Ukrainian air space to do their work? 

[Fanta]

20 minutes ago, EdwardV said:

Especially when you don’t own the skies. That said, why would you think NATO spy planes need to enter Ukrainian air space to do their work? 

Russia has made a lot of payments towards  ownership of the skies. I don’t know the “scanning” range of these spy planes. NATO spy planes are on the Ukraine Polish border and over the Black Sea. I’m just saying that NATO & Russian spy planes and drones might enter off limits airspace because “accidents” happen and they might get shot down because “accidents” happen on both sides. 
https://www.ft.com/content/2c7340bc-3f45-4948-b878-2d1d490ab94b